At 9/13/12 06:24 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Too quick hitting that Post button

This is very little image compared to empty space imo

At 9/11/12 06:57 PM, J-qb wrote:

At 9/11/12 06:51 PM, BeckyRawr wrote: I'll defiantly take part if I have time :3
I just hope i'm good enough :3

There's no sense in being defiant about it if you're good enough...

I thought it was self explanatory but apparently not. I ment if there is an art contest to get into the book i will defiantly take part.
Also i don't give a shit if you don't think i'm good enough. I try my best and that's all that matters.

At 9/13/12 06:24 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Too quick hitting that Post button

Can't help but feel that the black borders would be the biggest waste of ink since my neighbor decided to get a tribal tattoo.

Anyway, wouldn't feel comfortable submitting my art to this on account of its embarrassingly badness. The art, not the book. Wish y'all the best of luck and if you could try hitting up some flash artists to give you some pictures, if you're willing to go with a more Newgrounds related feel.

At 9/13/12 06:24 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Too quick hitting that Post button

What if along here you had some sort of write up from the artist?

Maybe like this?

As for the Art Book thing, I don't think there would be much incentive to buy an art book that was just "the stuff you can already find on the Art Portal, only now on paper!" There's already a section in the art portal to show off the best art from over the years, and I don't think that a book would enhance that at all.

Actually I would absolutely buy (if i had the cash) a hardcover art book with good quality prints with the same art BECAUSE it'd be on paper. Art on paper always always looks better than on the screen and is one of the main reason I purchase art magazines in the first place, in saying that

Maybe like this?

I'm personally not a fan at all of white text over black text in print. I think have black borders around images or something like that fine, but black text on white is a lot easier to read and doesn't feel like a chore. And yes I'm aware this forum is black on white, it's still not my cup of tea. This is just my opinion of course

At 9/13/12 06:23 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Thought I'd have a go at thinking about how the book would be laid out.
I would imagine something similar to this: black background, grey borders, multiple images laid out on every page?

Generally I think the whole black colour scheme is detrimental to readability. White on black text is uncomfortable to read and a black background just takes away from the art.

I also think that the colour scheme is probably the worst part of this website, but whatevs.

Try not to feel a slave to Newgrounds's colour scheme when designing a book. I don't think outside of the book cover people really need much more fancy design than a white background in an art book. The art itself is the draw.

At 9/13/12 09:14 PM, Aigis wrote:

At 9/13/12 06:23 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Thought I'd have a go at thinking about how the book would be laid out.
I would imagine something similar to this: black background, grey borders, multiple images laid out on every page?

Generally I think the whole black colour scheme is detrimental to readability. White on black text is uncomfortable to read and a black background just takes away from the art.

Hmm... I find that a black background makes the art stand out more. I guess maybe it varies from piece to piece? A brighter piece may look better on a dark backing, but a darker piece better on a lighter one?

I know that my art would definitely not be even remotely up to par for this, but I would love to still help contribute.
Maybe I can help run through getting artist bios and backgrounds that would accompany their work?

I would buy 3 of these, keep on to myself and hand the other two out to trusted people who could spread word. The idea of an art book featuring artists from Newgrounds is heaps cool. I can already image it, with a opening note from Mr. Fulp and brief history of the Art Portal/Forum. How much would it cost though? I imagine the ink costing a lot of money and we are going to want to cram as much art in there as possible, right?

I think a format that splits the art up into categories, where there will be pages dedicated to whole pieces or a few larger pictures with the pages in between consisting of a collage of a whole bunch of "lesser known" artwork and such would work nicely.

Either way im very interested in a project like this.

At 9/13/12 06:53 PM, J-qb wrote:

At 9/13/12 06:24 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Too quick hitting that Post button

This is very little image compared to empty space imo

Haha disregard that^ I thought that was supposed to be 2 pages rather than 4.
I'm no fan of the black bg either. Don't think it really jeeds the extra text escalis described; id rather concentrate text to one (half)page for certain themes/artists instead of having it in between everything.

It's looking good, I have to say that the more I hear about this the more excited I am for it. Lots of work ahead of us though. Any news on what art will be in it? By that I mean will it just be old already existing pieces or will there be some created just for the book? I just want one of mine in hahaha, already putting money aside for my copy.

Think I'll respond to the page layout comments, since I've clearly missed the mark with my initial throw.

At 9/13/12 07:06 PM, Escalus wrote: Oh my, the negative space D: it's murdering me!

I know, I know! I thought I was giving the pics room to breathe, but it just looks like wasted space.

Page Outline: (picture coming soon explaning wtf I'm talking about below) v
Vonschlippe's, starcraft-terran-medic, should have a page of it's own,

I hope it's clear that I posted 4 pages in that preview, but yeah I agree stuff like that needs to be bigger.

[have Vonschlippe's pic] re-sized to fit one page vertically

Oh God, no. Two reasons why I would aim to avoid that: 1) the artist wants the pic to be viewed in its correct orientation, and 2) rotating things to fit on a page looks clumsy.
That's why I've added the StarCraft pic twice, so I could experiment with how so a pic would appear in the book. They both have their downsides: one has the spine right through the focus of the pic, while the other is too small. I'm temperted to dedicate a whole page to half the pic, with a smaller full view on the following page.

At 9/13/12 08:15 PM, wreckr wrote: What if along here you had some sort of write up from the artist?

This might be personal opinion, but I'd rather not. It certainly fills up the page a lot better, but I doubt anybody has anything interesting to say. Only art reference books can get away with it, since the author is quite knowledgeable (or full of themselves), and refer to the accompanying pics in the text.

That empty space can be better invested in other pics - it'll be a pain in the arse to make them fit, however!

At 9/13/12 09:14 PM, Aigis wrote: Generally I think the whole black colour scheme is detrimental to readability. White on black text is uncomfortable to read and a black background just takes away from the art.

I'd prefer black to white or any other colour. White is too clean, and I don't have that readability problem for pics set upon a black void. Although the only way to find this out is to put white to the test.

Try not to feel a slave to Newgrounds's colour scheme when designing a book.

If I was being a slave it'd be a textured grey BG (which'd be crap). My initial impression is that black would work better than white with the images in the book.

At 9/13/12 10:16 PM, Captain-Carrion wrote: I think a format that splits the art up into categories, where there will be pages dedicated to whole pieces or a few larger pictures with the pages in between consisting of a collage of a whole bunch of "lesser known" artwork and such would work nicely.

I think the same. At the moment I'm feeling that the first half/two thirds is classic images from the art portal in very broad categories (character concepts, animals, design ...), and the remainder is content produced specifically for the book during a 3 month contest.

Don't worry about lapses in quality to be the nice guy, since I favour a 100% perfect product over an untarnished conscience.

How much would it cost though? I imagine the ink costing a lot of money and we are going to want to cram as much art in there as possible, right?

The costs for printing the pages are fine, and I reckon it can produce a very affordable softback book.
My only concern is the amount of profit from the book. Not only should the profit make the price of the book reasonable, but there is also the problem of how much goes to Newgrounds specifically, and whether artists feel like they are entitled to a cut - which could come out of the initial costs or as a percentage for each book sold. I think that is one of the main issues for the book, to make sure all the contributors are on board and feel like they're getting a fair deal.

I'll have another go with some draft layout ideas tonight.

At 9/14/12 06:12 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I'd prefer black to white or any other colour. White is too clean, and I don't have that readability problem for pics set upon a black void. Although the only way to find this out is to put white to the test.

Remember there's a difference between web and print, since monitors emit light so black and white are an issue of brightness of the monitor.

In any case, you might want to check out these:

http://www.transio.com/content/why-you-shouldnt-use-white-te xt-black-background
http://blog.tatham.oddie.com.au/2008/10/13/why-light-text-on -dark-background-is-a-bad-idea/

I've got a beautifull Juxtapoz artbook lying about which has some varying layout designs, do you want me to make some scans/copy some of those layouts?

btw: it uses a white background for most pics, but some have a black bg

At 9/14/12 06:32 AM, Aigis wrote: In any case, you might want to check out these:

http://www.transio.com/content/why-you-shouldnt-use-white-te xt-black-background
http://blog.tatham.oddie.com.au/2008/10/13/why-light-text-on -dark-background-is-a-bad-idea/

Two things:
1) I'm favouring the black background for the pics, not the text. I mentioned previously that I'm not overly keen on adding text since I doubt it'll contribute much (plus I'd favour cramming more pics in than getting people's opinions on their own work/work style). I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.
2) The second link appears more credible than the first, which appears more opinion based (and also misquoted the 50% readership decrease, since the second link associates it with people with astigmatisms).

I'll play about with white bg, but my mind's eye says black would work better. I am fairly confident I have a few art books where the art is featured on a glossy back page.

At 9/14/12 06:39 AM, J-qb wrote: I've got a beautifull Juxtapoz artbook lying about which has some varying layout designs, do you want me to make some scans/copy some of those layouts?

btw: it uses a white background for most pics, but some have a black bg

That'd be grand, yeah.

At 9/14/12 06:50 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.

Somebody buys a book and you expect them to not read it? Just a once through, look at the art, then toss it in the book pile?

At 9/14/12 07:33 AM, Aigis wrote:

At 9/14/12 06:50 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.

Somebody buys a book and you expect them to not read it? Just a once through, look at the art, then toss it in the book pile?

Are you choosing to purposely misread my posts? It's an art book, there won't be much text in it, other than the title of the pic and the author.

I'll play about with white bg, but my mind's eye says black would work better. I am fairly confident I have a few art books where the art is featured on a glossy back page.

Black helps the viewer to concentrate on the image itself,let alone it looks stylish and better.I am really looking forward to this project being the art book sucker that I am :D

At 9/14/12 07:33 AM, Aigis wrote:

At 9/14/12 06:50 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.

Somebody buys a book and you expect them to not read it? Just a once through, look at the art, then toss it in the book pile?

It's an art book. I have "read" through my mine countless times but haven't read all the artist bio's even once.

Layout's copied from juxtapoz:
1 | 2 | 3 (shown below)

Basically they seem to have changed the layout for every piece. This particular book showcases per artist, so the first layout is an bio of that artist and then there'll be 6 pages with art, no text except pagenumbers (which only show up if the art isn't overlapping them). There are a lot of pieces that go across the fold, but they are typically so positioned that the focal point isn't in the fold. Vonschlippe's space-medic could be placed like the giraffe in layout 2 for example.
There's a lot of variation between stuff hugging the edges or top or both, or spaced although they only occasionally have two pieces of art touch, and then only if they have solid backgrounds. Typically two would-be full page pieces of art are so positioned that one fills it's page whereas the other leaves a bit of space at the edges. (similar to layout 2 if you change the three small ones for one bigger piece)
Smaller images (such as in layout 2) work quite well in print since the resolution is much higher than on screen.
Of course there's also the typical two-page spreads, but you can imagine how that looks yourself.

At 9/14/12 07:46 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote:

At 9/14/12 07:33 AM, Aigis wrote:

At 9/14/12 06:50 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.

Somebody buys a book and you expect them to not read it? Just a once through, look at the art, then toss it in the book pile?

Are you choosing to purposely misread my posts? It's an art book, there won't be much text in it, other than the title of the pic and the author.

I think maybe accidentally misreading your posts. I thought you were connecting that with the previous sentence to mean that people wouldn't read further text in the book if it was in there.

I do think that text giving context to art would make the art book more interesting though. It doesn't have to be a lot of text. A paragraph or two on a page giving a short description of the artist, and maybe their approach to art wouldn't take up enough space that you'd likely be sacrificing picture-space. Connecting art to a person beyond simply their name gives a bit more impact to the art through contextualisation, I think.

Maybe if there was an author description on pages dedicated to a single artist's work, while on pages with more than one artists' pictures there was only an author/title caption?

At 9/14/12 07:46 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote:

At 9/14/12 07:33 AM, Aigis wrote:

At 9/14/12 06:50 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: I doubt people will spend much time reading picture captions, if at all.

Somebody buys a book and you expect them to not read it? Just a once through, look at the art, then toss it in the book pile?

Are you choosing to purposely misread my posts? It's an art book, there won't be much text in it, other than the title of the pic and the author.

That makes sense. I was just throwing an idea if you thought there could be a little author comments section or something.

I agree though that if it is an art book that the only text should be the title of the art and the author (and page number of course!)

At 9/15/12 11:21 PM, ImpendingRiot wrote: I like the look of black personally, but it probably wouldn't hurt to alternate between black and white. I think it depends on the specific piece(s) being featured. Things that are predominantly dark tones go on white, light tones go on black.

A mix of black and white would be a design nightmare and while logically it seems like the best idea, practically it would be a huge clusterfuck.

Black or dark grey are typically the most ideal for viewing artwork only because white becomes vacuous and lazy when done wrong. I have seen books with white or light grey backgrounds look absolutely stunning but I have also seen white backgrounds fall flat on their faces and make the book look incomplete and rushed.

As for the text, I think that their no matter what artist name, date (year), media, and size are the most crucial. Anything else would be pretty neat, but what is there to say about the pieces really? And who would write it? Do we give a glossy professional review of each piece? Do we just pick the best review it currently has? A summary of why it was chosen? Artist commentary? I think all would be possible (with exception of the best current review, seeing as most pieces have none or really shite reviews) and would add a bit of interest to the book beyond just a showcase, but if they couldn't be done from a design standpoint then they wouldn't be a crippling loss.

I think throwing in an a few artist interviews (good ones for a change, not that cookie cutter moron shite most of the interview accounts spew out) would be a nice possible addition as well.

At 9/16/12 08:13 AM, ornery wrote: I think throwing in an a few artist interviews (good ones for a change, not that cookie cutter moron shite most of the interview accounts spew out) would be a nice possible addition as well.

Interviews have been a staple of just about every artist showcase site I've stumbled across - see the art, know the artist, ectera ectera, and the difference between a great interview and a terrible one is basic spelling and grammar, and whether or not the interviewer bothered to research the interviewee.

I've read so many interviews that I pretty much automatically compartmentalize the answers as I'm reading them, but I've taken one single, yet to be wrong rule from it all; the art may be fantastic, the concepts awe-inspiring, the rendering pants-wettingly awesome, but all it takes is a few simple questions to reveal that artists just aren't very interesting people.

A few other ideas:
Fun Facts!
- even the most cookie cutter of information is inoffensive in short doses
Tips for the Modern Artist
- why all the artists in this book are primarily digital, and other hard to digest truths
Resources
- remember: if you're asking an artist about what brushes he uses, then he hates you already

That's all I can pull out of my ass for now. What's the difference between a review and a critique, anyhow?

At 9/16/12 09:53 AM, Lintire wrote: I've taken one single, yet to be wrong rule from it all; the art may be fantastic, the concepts awe-inspiring, the rendering pants-wettingly awesome, but all it takes is a few simple questions to reveal that artists just aren't very interesting people.

That's generally my stand on making interviews.

A few other ideas:
Fun Facts!
- even the most cookie cutter of information is inoffensive in short doses

I've grown to accept this might be ok. A short summary on the artist's background (even if it's just their location in the world and how they got involved with drawing as a hobby/profession might be fine.
Also web portfolios and contact info would be a-ok.

Tips for the Modern Artist
- why all the artists in this book are primarily digital, and other hard to digest truths

Some small tit-bits of advice might be ok (flip your work, start with grey-scale, save your work regularly).
Aigis has also suggested a small section with some tutorials might be worth a read.

Resources
- remember: if you're asking an artist about what brushes he uses, then he hates you already

Would go under Fun Facts (i.e. brief artist's information).

That's all I can pull out of my ass for now. What's the difference between a review and a critique, anyhow?

I really don't want to see reviews in this book, since they're generally going to be cookie-cutter praise offered by the nobody's assembling the book.

A rather lovely set of ideas are set before Toas, well allow me to dunk my two cents into there in a less than stellar fashion:

If we were to make a book, I believe it should focus on the culture of the NG art portal, Follow the ideas and expressions of the way the art portal moves rather than a cirlcejerk of egotism, we are, after all, a community, a dysfunctional, distant, family that sometimes will appear elitist in the presence of the lesser men, I feel we should express the spirit of the NG art portal, the heart of it, you know that withered, blackened lump that rae use as a trampoline, that thing.

This place has an atmosphere, can you feel it? We should express it, tell of it and show it, it is a thing most reletive to the artist and we need to show it to others.

*plunk*

There's my two cents.

At 9/16/12 12:16 PM, M-Maher wrote: If we were to make a book, I believe it should focus on the culture of the NG art portal

Good point. Let's abandon this whole idea and just print a book full of TheShadling's underage chicks with dicks having sex with sandwiches.

Wow, this is such a cool idea. Do you plan on just selling it through the website or is it possible to get it sold through bookstores? I collect art books, a lot of them I stumbled on randomly while browsing through bookstores, and I have to say, it's a great way for artists to get exposure. I'm not all over the internet, so a lot of the artists I obsess over now are artists I never would've discovered without those books.

When the competition comes around, I'll definitely try to participate.

At 9/16/12 12:42 PM, Amaranthus wrote: It'll get sold out in no time. All the 13 year olds will steal their parent's creditcard to buy it.

You should really stop talking about yourself in the third person.

At 9/16/12 01:14 PM, Amaranthus wrote:

At 9/16/12 01:11 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote:

At 9/16/12 12:42 PM, Amaranthus wrote:

Meh, they say most 13 year olds love his art, wasn't talking in third person.

13 Year olds are pretty fucked up now a'days then.