Hello all my fellow NG'ers~ (<- sounds kind of wrong)
Anyway, I'm making this thread just to explain and leave some conclusions.
Yes, this is about religion, but it isn't men't to be taken serious or to prevent a flame war.

I've been being asked if you need a religion to go to heaven, and no you do not.
Even though you don't have a religion.. They're some people who will never experience what having a religion is.
In this case your gate to heaven is depending on your conscious.
If you do something right and your conscious is telling you "this is correct," and other people are pleased with what you do such as tribes and people that live in the Amazon or Africa~ Killing an animal or sacrificing would be fine, because that's just in their culture.

If your conscious is telling you you're doing something wrong, such as killing on purpose or knowing your doing something wrong that you feel guilt.
Then you know what that is, and you know where that leads you to.

Living an ordinary essential, because your just living it and it will all depend on your conscious and acts.
You know when you're doing something right.
You know when you're doing something wrong.
even though you don't believe in "Heaven or Hell" you know doing something good is good, and doing something bad is bad.

So rate yourself..
Do you really think your life is filled with good deeds?
Or is it filled with crime and thieving acts? such as sin~

Consciousness:
is a term that refers to the relationship between the mind and the world with which it interacts
it has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

I for one do have a religion but I chose it because I can, and I want to~
I'm just speaking what I've learned.

If i'm wrong i'm wrong~
if i'm right i'm right~

Feel free to accept or disprove ~

living and ordinary life is essential"

At 13 minutes ago, yurgenburgen wrote: Heaven isn't real.
Stop believing in fairytales.

I have a feeling you didn't read a word I just said~
so your statement is invalid I wasn't trying to promote what is religion.

I was only speaking what i've learned for the people who are still curious.
If you read closely.. not one bit of what I said is about religion; except for the heaven and hell part.

At 24 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote: Yes, this is about religion, but it isn't men't to be taken serious or to prevent a flame war.

...And that's where you screwd up.

At 8 minutes ago, dlxrevolution wrote:

At 24 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote: Yes, this is about religion, but it isn't men't to be taken serious or to prevent a flame war.

...And that's where you screwd up.

I agree I did screw up lol should have proof read this..

:@DewI kind of wonder myself about good or bad deeds like you mentioned. While it's true that many people know the difference between good or bad, what of the select few percentages of people that don't? Or the select few percentages of people that understand something is wrong, but not necessarily why it is so? Do these people still go to heaven in your eyes?

Yes, such as the people in tribes that kill for their own is a good deed.
people who don't know what right and wrong is impossible because the conscious is grown in a certain age when you mature and know the difference between the two.

At 37 minutes ago, yurgenburgen wrote: Heaven isn't real.
Stop believing in fairytales.

OP just noted in the...wow you're stupid. I bet you just looked at the topic and posted that without even reading the thread.

While I don't believe in the supernatural, I'm going to point out that there is a flaw in the concept of being guided by your conscience.

Some people feel extreme guilt about nearly everything they do or don't do--no matter if they were at fault or not, if their actions could have done something differently or not, or even very minor things that most people would pass off as acts of everyday living.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are people who feel little if any guilt or remorse about anything; people with antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy).

Being guided by your conscience to heaven or hell would be a grave mistake, imo.

At 42 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote: If you do something right and your conscious is telling you "this is correct," and other people are pleased with what you do such as tribes and people that live in the Amazon or Africa~ Killing an animal or sacrificing would be fine, because that's just in their culture.

"tribes and people that live in the amazon or africa"
Are you saying EVERYONE that lives in these regions are tribals who live in tents that sacrifice animals as their religion, and their culture?

Going back to the topic, you said about your consciousness. What about psychopaths, they don't know the difference between wrong and right, and may do shitloads of evil things, but his brain fails to express emotions about these things. And people constantly blaming theirselves for things they are not guilty of, because of their conscience they are destined to hell?

At 21 minutes ago, dx5231 wrote:

At 42 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote: If you do something right and your conscious is telling you "this is correct," and other people are pleased with what you do such as tribes and people that live in the Amazon or Africa~ Killing an animal or sacrificing would be fine, because that's just in their culture.

"tribes and people that live in the amazon or africa"
Are you saying EVERYONE that lives in these regions are tribals who live in tents that sacrifice animals as their religion, and their culture?

Going back to the topic, you said about your consciousness. What about psychopaths, they don't know the difference between wrong and right, and may do shitloads of evil things, but his brain fails to express emotions about these things. And people constantly blaming theirselves for things they are not guilty of, because of their conscience they are destined to hell?

If you look closely I separated them with an "and" so I was never referring that everyone that lives in these regions have a tribe.
Also psychopaths who have terror and shock in their memories aren't necessarily going straight to hell.
they can change, but there is a reason why they turned into psychopaths in the first place. See theres a level to your conscious where the bad things we do; such as killing turns into a habit or an addiction and you do not feel sympathy or guilt for doing those bad things, which later on will or may cause insanity.
We can change ourselves or we can be ourselves.
There is a limit to everything.

Well i do believe in a heaven and since i'm baptist (christian) I believe that God will create a new heaven and earth. Heaven will be literally a place of awe, while earth would most likely be this earth, but just better as in no one dies, we can work on science, read books and pretty much go through eternity enjoy it.

just a side bar, Christ already before the foundation of the earth chose who will be saved. Since we do not know, we preach to everyone and everyone could have a chance. I'll preach in blog so the forums don't go and flip desk at me.

You are talking about morality not heaven. You argument is that moral systems can exist wihtout religion, you suppose a situational view of ethics as opposed to a religious deontological one. But i don't think you've thought carefully about what morality actually is. In your scenario, there is no moral system, you've just stated an obvious fact: some people feel guilty about things that others don't, and visa-versa. Why does feeling guilty about an action mean it's "wrong", and what does that even mean in your scenario if not the will of god or some universal objective value?

At 2 hours ago, yurgenburgen wrote: Heaven isn't real.
Stop believing in fairytales.

This.

At 1 hour ago, Blazejsg wrote: Also psychopaths who have terror and shock in their memories aren't necessarily going straight to hell.
they can change, but there is a reason why they turned into psychopaths in the first place. See theres a level to your conscious where the bad things we do; such as killing turns into a habit or an addiction and you do not feel sympathy or guilt for doing those bad things, which later on will or may cause insanity.
We can change ourselves or we can be ourselves.

Correct me if I am wrong, but most, if not all psychos/sociopaths are already BORN this way, so even if they want to, they cannot have any feelings towards another human being, so if they kill one or another, hurt them physically or emotionally, they will not feel any guilt at all.

At 3 minutes ago, dx5231 wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but most, if not all psychos/sociopaths are already BORN this way, so even if they want to, they cannot have any feelings towards another human being, so if they kill one or another, hurt them physically or emotionally, they will not feel any guilt at all.

Well that's very unlikely and rare.. first of all why would they be born as a psychopath?

At 28 minutes ago, PIED3 wrote: You are talking about morality not heaven. You argument is that moral systems can exist wihtout religion, you suppose a situational view of ethics as opposed to a religious deontological one. But i don't think you've thought carefully about what morality actually is. In your scenario, there is no moral system, you've just stated an obvious fact: some people feel guilty about things that others don't, and visa-versa. Why does feeling guilty about an action mean it's "wrong", and what does that even mean in your scenario if not the will of god or some universal objective value?

Yes, but i'm just calmly illustrating what i've learned from a very wise person.
What i'm referring to is for the people that are curious about religion or the theory of "Heaven and Hell"
that you shouldn't be scared if you do not have a religion, but you should still be a good hearted person in life to achieve a good persona and life style.
there are very different phases of the situation of "guilt" so often times it is because of something wrong you did or sometimes it's not wrong it's just a feeling you forgot to do something.

The morality system differs from many other cultures religion etc.
but i'm just explaining mine in the view of Christianity.
I'm not saying Christianity is the right way to go, but it is only a theory so young men and teens won't be scared of what there is to come.

Good deeds don't get you into heaven.

Psychopaths will not change, for anyone, it is extremely rare.

At 1 hour ago, Blazejsg wrote: Well that's very unlikely and rare.. first of all why would they be born as a psychopath?

Being a psychopath can be seen as a mental handicap - basically, you are born with it. See, psychos are born this way, unlike those mentally insane, that become insane because of their life experiences, certain drugs, really shocking experiences. Sociopaths do not feel emotions towards other human beings, and they are born this way. "Curing" them is not really easy, and I'm not sure it can be done, so they can't really change into someone better (although insane people might have a cure).

I might be just wrong, I'm no expert in this area.

Well, I already know where this is going....

ahem

STFU and GTFO.
We're all going to heaven, so stop bitchin' about it.

mine's gonna be full of cocks. o 3o

At 17 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote: Yes, but i'm just calmly illustrating what i've learned from a very wise person.

Heh heh

What i'm referring to is for the people that are curious about religion or the theory of "Heaven and Hell"

But you aren't talking about life after death at all! You are talking about morality!

that you shouldn't be scared if you do not have a religion, but you should still be a good hearted person in life to achieve a good persona and life style.

Ha! Why would anyone be "scared" if they didn't "have" a religion? Religious or non-religous has no real bearing on "scary" or not "scary". You can be scared of death as an atheist, or even more scared of hell as a theist!

there are very different phases of the situation of "guilt" so often times it is because of something wrong you did or sometimes it's not wrong it's just a feeling you forgot to do something.

But what does it mean to say something's wrong if not going against the will of god or lacks some universal objective value!

The morality system differs from many other cultures religion etc.

Duh

but i'm just explaining mine in the view of Christianity.

Stop saying what you are "just doing", as though i've claimed you are murdering 100 innocent babies. I can see what you are doing, my eyes are open!

I'm not saying Christianity is the right way to go, but it is only a theory so young men and teens won't be scared of what there is to come.

You think Christianity is "only" a theory? I thought you were a Christian!

At 1 hour ago, PIED3 wrote:

At 17 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote:

Ha! Why would anyone be "scared" if they didn't "have" a religion? Religious or non-religous has no real bearing on "scary" or not "scary". You can be scared of death as an atheist, or even more scared of hell as a theist!

it's just a metaphor... you're taking this way to serious by taking one word and making it bigger than it is.

Stop saying what you are "just doing", as though i've claimed you are murdering 100 innocent babies. I can see what you are doing, my eyes are open!

Lol, you are a very judgmental person by taking a couple of words and making it sound much worse.

You think Christianity is "only" a theory? I thought you were a Christian!

Again what's with the emphasis on everything i'm saying?
I said that is my theory as a christian. christianity isn't a theory it's a belief.

At 8 minutes ago, Blazejsg wrote:

At 1 hour ago, PIED3 wrote:

Again what's with the emphasis on everything i'm saying?
I said that is my theory as a christian. christianity isn't a theory it's a belief.

I think what he is getting at is your post is not christian or biblical at all.

From what I understand, Catholicism is heavily based around paying you and your dead relatives' way into heaven in combination with making sure your a Christianat all in order to avoid instant damnation. You are clearly not a Catholic by any stretch of the imagination, and thus not a "true" Christian.

On the other hand, that makes you a protestant. Protestants are awesome compared to catholics through the eyes of an intellectual. Being that I'm an atheist, you may not take my reply seriously, however.

People are having a field day misinterpreting what your saying, but I think I know exactly where you're coming from. In essence, ignorance of god or religion is not immediate grounds for damnation, and that is the bottom line you've proposed. You've further suggested that "good deeds", or morally positive intentions are a surefire way to wake up in heaven one day .. and in the case of an atheist such as myself, starkly shocked.

The debate about psychopaths or sociopaths being an exception does not stand true. In my opinion, fulfilling ones proper function is the most morally endowing action any human being could ever take. To us, a psychopath is a dangerous villain that needs to be taken out of commission. But that mentally ill fellow, be he born in that condition or simply insane, is only fulfilling what he believes in his own mind to be "right".

.. be that to fulfill his/her desire to kill, rape, plunder, steal, or burn houses to the ground. Conversely, it could be argued these people are one of humanities' "crowd control" mechanisms born within our species to regulate population growth in a self-contained manner. In that sense, they are only attempting to fulfill their "purpose", or proper function.

Then you have morality, which is something else entirely. To any "sane" person, we have a moral compass of sorts, thusly termed the conscience. We recognize their deviant behavior, and thus we will seek to correct it by incarcerating them so that they are no longer a threat to innocent lives. People who are sane and sin as it were, however, are douche bags. I personally believe "sin" to be a universal term even outside of religion.

Sane people will kill, they will steal, and they will lie. The context in which they do these things affects whether these functions are truly "evil", or "immoral". Is a soldier that fights to protect his family a monster, or is a man who slits the throats of women at night for kicks a monster? Is it wrong to steal a new iPod Touch for yourself on a whim, or is it wrong to steal a bag of cheetos to eat when you haven't eaten in 2 days and can't afford regular meals?

Conclusion:

Red - Wronging another human being for your own profit is generally sinful. A Christian would term this grounds for eventual damnation if you didn't fuck off and stop being a sinful prick. Wishful thinking, I say ..

Yellow - Neutral fellows who often blame themselves for things they aren't responsible for or feel terrible at the idea they've somehow done something to harm others are being debated over. They lack the audacity to claim the right to enter Heaven, yet lack the capacity to get themselves a ticket into Hell through effective sinning, as well. In short, I'd argue they're the only ones guaranteed to get into heaven.

Green - Be they Christian, Atheist, or something in between, some will actively seek to do good deeds and/or better themselves through proper function. Proper function could mean fresh air and exercise, study, or any number of things. The two concepts sort of blend in seamlessly at many points. (We both agree, however, that audacious pricks who believe they're guaranteed to get into heaven because they're Christians, regardless of their actions in life, are "immoral". You genuinely seem to feel concerned that they're running around telling everyone who isn't Christian that they're going to Hell.)

Mix these colors together and you get the makeup of every human being on Earth. Wherever the balance is most tipped, in your eyes, will be the factor which determines whether a person goes to Heaven or Hell.

If this is what you think, then I agree.

PS: Sorry for the wordy response, everyone. Sometimes things aren't worth saying if they're brief.

At 8 hours ago, Blazejsg wrote: I've been asked if you need a religion to go to heaven, and no you do not.

Obviously. Heaven is part of religion.

There are some people who will never experience what having a religion is.

If they believe in Santa Claus, it's the same thing.

In this case your gate to heaven is depending on your conscious.

I would probably have a decent chance into heaven. I love helping people and being generous, but I can be an asshole at times and am quite lazy.

Also, know the difference between "conscience" and "conscious". Two different things.

Yes its true, I don't think you need a "religion" to enter heaven, but God is still the ultimate judge of all our actions, and not living by some form of good moral values will have it's consequences on our mortal lives.

Also, when times get really hard for us here on Earth; I would put my trust in God before fully putting my trust in ANY human including myself, because humans don't always have the best interest for their fellow people; but the Lord always knows what is best for us

Religious people are followers. Religious leaders are opportunists. Atheists are thinkers.

At 22 minutes ago, yurgenburgen wrote: I like how everyone's responding as if heaven is real. It's like a collective dry sense of humour amongst everyone.

People choose to believe in it not everyone is going to agree with your decision.
every one is different so don't expect people to agree with your own opinion~ some people will and some people won't.
You have to respect our decision just like we respect yours.

I don't see Christians yelling "COME TO MY CHURCH OR ELSE YOUR GOING TO HELL!?"

At 58 seconds ago, Blazejsg wrote:
I don't see Christians yelling "COME TO MY CHURCH OR ELSE YOUR GOING TO HELL!?"

I do...

I view religion as a scare tactic. If you do this, you'll suffer for all eternity. If you do this however, you go and be with god, and the golden arches for all eternity. You must abide by a damn near impossible set of rules, or else you'll suffer for all eternity. If you break those rules however, you can still erase your wrong doings by praying to a mythical being that died for you 2000 years ago.

At 26 minutes ago, yurgenburgen wrote: I like how everyone's responding as if heaven is real.

Some people in this thread truly believe Heaven exist, so you can't really not expect for it to be a natural process.

I'm irreligious and don't care about religion at all...oh wait, I guess I do care if I'm posting here. I am a hypocrite.

At 2 hours ago, yurgenburgen wrote: I like how everyone's responding as if heaven is real. It's like a collective dry sense of humour amongst everyone.

Will you calm your tits? This thread is implying that if heaven was real, would you go there depending on your conscience. It's one of those thread games.