http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/couple-
finally-reveals-childs-gender-five-years -birth-180300388.html

I start this by saying I do not proclaim to tell anyone how to raise their child. I am not a parent. That being said, this is a questionable move.
The main argument young Sasha's mother brings is that she did not want to enforce stereotypes upon her child. While that is admirable, does gener identity in itself suppose stereotypes? Couldn't it be just as easy to tell the child he's a boy and then let him decide for himself what that meant to him? Children have questions about self discovery and there's only so much not answering a parent can do.
Adding to the confusion is that the couple have two older children, giving Sasha both a brother and a sister. Have they seen adverse affect of gender roles in them? Do they feel cheated for not having the oppretunity to choose their youngest sibling has? This isn't brought up.

I guess the big question here is how much do you think that gender roles affect children and how you would approach this situation. Their forbadence of skull prints shirts gauls me as a Punisher fan but I can see it not fitting a 5 year old.

Don't ask me how, but I just KNEW they were British, and super liberal brits at that.

I don't really get this. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but seems like it'd be more of a hassle than anything. I don't see how calling him a boy, is stereotyping honestly. He has a penis. He's a boy. It's as simple as that.

Telling him that men have to be this way or that way, is stereotyping, but in my mind necessary stereotyping, because he will never be accepted by men in this world unless he acts like one. Gender roles are engrained into our culture, whether anyone likes it or not. It's different than racial stereotyping, or shit like that.

But telling him he's male does not "box" him in. It is a label yes, but there are males, and then there are females. Females have vaginas and boobs, males have balls and a dick, and YES it IS that simple.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea, or that the kid won't turn out right, he probably will. All I can really say is that the parents are real prudes. You'd have to be very prudish to do a thing like this.

Probably why I wasn't surprised to find out they were British.(no offense)

all that effort went to waste, the kid's own natural instincts that have been implanted in him before birth alone will be enough to lead him to his sexuality, and "gender role" will be thrown at him when he goes to school, unless they wan't him to be beaten up of course. even if we could just magically remove "gender bias" all the kids in school would just find a new norm for everyone to conform to and everyone who strays from it would immediately be an outcast.

There was an episode of some crime show where some girl preferred to act and dress exactly like a guy but she wasn't attracted to other girls, just men as usual. At worst case scenario the boy turns out to be the male counter part of that character.

At 1/20/12 06:45 PM, WallofYawn wrote: Don't ask me how, but I just KNEW they were British, and super liberal brits at that.

The part where that struck me was where they said they want their son to be an example. And whatever side you're on making your kid a political example is just a bad idea. Whether it's gender identity, naming conventions, worship practices or even how they dress kids are not political billboards. They're developing human beings.
Also, I didn't know if this was a meaningful example but they countered not allowing hyper macho clothes with saying they don't allow barbies. Again, why they dissaprove of barbie isn't pointed out, but the line has had controversy over the years. Personaly, refusal to get my nieces bratz dolls has lengthed my christmas and birthday shopping more than once.

Little infuriates me more than parents who dramatically play with their child's lives for their own attention (Kate + my hate).

Seriously. These parents are nothing more than attention whores trying to play an experiment at the expense of their child's mental health. Sickens me.

I also saw a story of a Canadian couple doing the same thing. The disturbing part of that is the father is a teacher. I would NOT want him anywhere near my kids.

I'm all for not forcing roles on kids like boys should be tough or girls should be feminine. But what if your son wants to play with Barbies or your daughter wants to play with Tonka trucks? Would these parents have had an issue with their older kids? Plus, gender WILL come into the equation eventually. One, you need to know which bathroom to use. Two, puberty has major differences for each gender.

On the list of things parents could and have done to kids that are bad, this is kind of low on the list.

Call me crazy, but I don't see the big deal, here. Would I do it to my kid? Probably not, as it's very inconvenient, but I don't think it's the life-scarring event that everyone thinks it is.

The most damage that will happen to the kid is how people will try to overcompensate while teaching the kid that he is, in fact, a boy in some form or another, if that happens. Other than that, the kid is five, the kid really won't know too much better in a few years (when he's been interacting with other boys his age for a considerable amount of time). Odd childhood, but it wasn't really a psyche damaging one.

I think it's a very strange thing to do with a kid, but I don't think it'll cause as much damage in the long run as people are saying it will. Just leave it be and let the people live their lives, they'll all be fine. :\

What a stupid idea. I'm all for making gender barriers murkier, and I don't give a shit how anyone chooses to express their sexuality/gender identity. But forcing this on a child is just wrong. It is a boy, he needs to know that he is physiologically, hormonally and mentally different from a female. What will happen when the kid gets older? He'll just get made fun of for having a rather effeminate name and acting more "girly." Fuck those parents.

At 1/20/12 10:28 PM, Gario wrote: Call me crazy, but I don't see the big deal, here. Would I do it to my kid? Probably not, as it's very inconvenient, but I don't think it's the life-scarring event that everyone thinks it is.

The most damage that will happen to the kid is how people will try to overcompensate while teaching the kid that he is, in fact, a boy in some form or another, if that happens. Other than that, the kid is five, the kid really won't know too much better in a few years (when he's been interacting with other boys his age for a considerable amount of time). Odd childhood, but it wasn't really a psyche damaging one.

I think it's a very strange thing to do with a kid, but I don't think it'll cause as much damage in the long run as people are saying it will. Just leave it be and let the people live their lives, they'll all be fine. :\

You don't see the potential damage from this? How about in 5 years when this kid is getting in trouble for wearing skirts to school and getting bullied for acting and dressing like a girl? How about in 8 years when puberty hits and this kid has absolutely no idea how to handle his own gender or sexuality? Gender has a major role in how we're viewed in society, even without society gender can affect our behavior (any research into the effects of steroids can show the effect of various testosterone levels on human behavior) but Sasha is being raised gender neutral which will eventually result in not only his own confusion but public humiliation. Jeffrey Dahmer was confused about his own sexuality and eventually began killing, raping, and eating men, in that order, to satisfy his physical and emotional need for contact with other people (I'm not exaggerating either, part of what drove him to becoming a serial killer was his confusion about his sexuality isolating him from other people). It's one thing to accept your children even when they're going against gender stereotypes but it's another thing entirely to force your child into gender neutrality without any consideration to what it will do to them in the future.

At 1/20/12 09:26 PM, frigi wrote: On the list of things parents could and have done to kids that are bad, this is kind of low on the list.

I think you have drastically underestimated the importance of gender in our world and the potential damage that can be done here. It's not Casey Anthony bad but these people are hurting their son in a very real way that will stick with him for the rest of his life.

Oh Goodie. We'll finally get to put all of these blank-slate gender-is-a-cultural-construct theories to the test.

I would love to see this kid grow up to become the Quarterback for his highschool football team, or something, whilst still fancying skirts. Scotland anyone?

On a more serious note. Just because society may be socially engineering children to behave one way or another in terms of gender behavior, I don't see it as justified to attempt to raise a child that expresses no definitive gender one way or another.

I think it's a silly idea, what harm does "imposing "stereotypes" on a child" do?

Look, if you buy your boy trucks and stuff and you find he likes to play with dolls and stuff, fine, buy him dolls until he's tired of them, don't fucking pre-emptively make him "gender neutral" if anything it's not a good way to fix the problem you are trying to fix. It will in fact cause more damage, it's not the first time it's tried.

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Ok now I've actually read the article. I like how the mother says:

He dresses as he likes.
He can't dress in hyper-masculine outfits

He was seen in a pink girl's swimsuit.

There's something fundamentally wrong with these quotes. He obviously cannot dress as he likes. My guess is she wanted a girl and tries to pass her dressing her son as a girl as "gender neutral"

Also I like how she claims the son isnt bothered by this, I don,t think she is aware oh how influenced a child can be versus his/her parents.

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Also I have seen people in the thread claim they were "super liberal" as a buzzword. How is it even liberal. I would describe myself as more liberal, I think it's a silly idea.

Just throwin' this out there, but since when have cargo pants been "hyper-masculine"?

At 1/20/12 06:45 PM, WallofYawn wrote: Don't ask me how, but I just KNEW they were British, and super liberal brits at that.

So in other words, a gender neutral kid has to do with liberal politics. There is a reason why kids and politics don't mix, because they really have nothing to do with each other besides the tired old tropes of "protect" or "invest" our children. Don't know where or how you thought that, but I can safely say that you're off base.

As for the kid, I fear that this kid is going to have a rough life, particularly in school because kids can be real pricks when it comes to something like this. Not to mention the fact that the parents seem to be okay with experimenting with the kid's overall mental health, and seem to getting the media limelight that they want, intentionally or not. In a total hypothetical situation, I would sooner give a child to a pair of racist crack addicts than to these assholes, which is definitely not saying very much, considering that they're both horrible situations.

At 1/21/12 08:05 AM, Korriken wrote:

these parents take political correctness to a rather extreme level then impose it on their child.

I don,t think it's political correctnesds, it's something else camouflaged, justified as political correctness.

either that or they did this in order to blackmail him later in life when he finds himself a girlfriend.. you know, embarrassing child photos and all.

Oh lawd, like if they didn't fuck over that child enough already.

At 1/21/12 01:02 PM, Elfer wrote: Just throwin' this out there, but since when have cargo pants been "hyper-masculine"?

That is a very good point, I know they are percieved as typical attire for nerds, which themselves are not percieved as pillars of manliness, who knows where she got that.

At 1/20/12 06:45 PM, WallofYawn wrote: Don't ask me how, but I just KNEW they were British, and super liberal brits at that.

That kind of thing is considered as crazy in Britain as it is in the US, that and they are by definition not being liberal as liberalism implies letting someone do what they want which is clearly not what is happening here.

It reminds me of that one kid who had his penis accidentally burned off and he was raised as a girl. I do not recall his name, but I saw an interesting TV documentary on him. I guess the kid was simply never taught the differences between boys and girls so he never really noticed anything weird about his appearance? Oh well, hopefully it won't end as badly as it did for the other kid as he eventually shot himself.

At 1/22/12 10:33 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 1/22/12 04:01 AM, VenomKing666 wrote:

I don,t think it's political correctnesds, it's something else camouflaged, justified as political correctness.

if the whole concept of "no gender roles, everyone is the same, etc" isn't political correctness... then, what is it?

I think the point being made there was that one or both of the parents is acting vicariously through the boy and masking it with the pretence of not wanting to enforce sterotypes.

At 1/21/12 10:26 PM, orangebomb wrote: So in other words, a gender neutral kid has to do with liberal politics.

I hate to play into stereotypes myself, but... you wouldn't see a pair of conservative parents doing something this screwball with their kids.

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As someone who was home-schooled, I think I've got a unique outlook on this situation. Like this kid, I was sheltered from reality more than a little bit growing up, but unlike this kid... my parents shielded me from stuff that was potentially harmful, like going through the worst educational system in the state of Tennessee, where Ritalen was handed out like candy, sex ed was taught at age 9, and I got my ass beat by other kids for "talking too much."

This kid has been sheltered from what he actually is for nothing more than a publicity stunt, and he's going to be paying for it for the next several years to come. And what's more, there's going to be a digital archive of all of it, with many people's opinions on the matter... all he'll have to do is google his own name and find out what the world thought of how he was brought up. If that doesn't fuck with your self image or the way you perceive the world, I don't know what will.

At 1/22/12 11:25 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 1/21/12 10:26 PM, orangebomb wrote: So in other words, a gender neutral kid has to do with liberal politics.

I hate to play into stereotypes myself, but... you wouldn't see a pair of conservative parents doing something this screwball with their kids.

Either way this is as much an anomaly to liberalism as things like the WBC are to conservatism.

At 1/22/12 12:08 PM, J1993 wrote: Either way this is as much an anomaly to liberalism as things like the WBC are to conservatism.

A valid point; idiots exist in every group, and sooner or later they are going to take part of the group's message to the extreme end, just like the WBC did with conservative thought, so did these liberals do with the self esteem movement, to which I shall defer to George Carlin on the matter.

At 1/22/12 12:08 PM, J1993 wrote:

At 1/22/12 11:25 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 1/21/12 10:26 PM, orangebomb wrote: So in other words, a gender neutral kid has to do with liberal politics.

I hate to play into stereotypes myself, but... you wouldn't see a pair of conservative parents doing something this screwball with their kids.

Either way this is as much an anomaly to liberalism as things like the WBC are to conservatism.

Maybe, but in any side of any argument you're going to get extremists that the other side can point to and say "this is who you are!" Also bringing them into the liberal side is the bit about the childrens toys are "consumer trappings." Again, that's not something you'd picture conservatives arguing.
Two points that I wonder about this are the school uniforms and the barbies. The way they present the mixed school uniform doesn't make it sound like it was Sashas idea. Here's the quote

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet."

To say he's not bothered either way reads me to that it was chosen for him to not wear the straight (as in typical) boys uniform.
As for the barbies, they put that right next to no punisher shirts and cargo pants. But is it because of the unhealthy charactarized idea of womanhood that line has long been accused of? Or is it another consumer trapping?

What utter cretins these parents are, this is a true legitimate case where Social services should be called in (unlike Social Service cases where they took children away for no good reason)

At 1/22/12 10:38 AM, J1993 wrote:

I think the point being made there was that one or both of the parents is acting vicariously through the boy and masking it with the pretence of not wanting to enforce sterotypes.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

I wonder what his sexuality is/will be.

Some will argue that letting your son do feminine things can make them gay though that is very questionable and there isn't really any proof so if he ends up being straight I wonder what all the 'your childhood determines your sexuality' people will say.

At 1/23/12 12:22 AM, Halberd wrote: I wonder what his sexuality is/will be.

Some will argue that letting your son do feminine things can make them gay though that is very questionable and there isn't really any proof so if he ends up being straight I wonder what all the 'your childhood determines your sexuality' people will say.

No matter the outcome, one child isn't going to close such a controversial case like that. I think the real backstory behind this is obvious. Parents wanted a daughter, crushed when they found out it was a boy, and decided to have him act like a cute lil' girl his first few years because the human body can't comprehend social tendencies until a period where it is around other humans regularly. Let's assume one day he comes home from school and asks his mom to get him the normal boys uniform, will his mother grant his request?

Shouldn't there be a response from homophobic and/or religious parents in the same community? Raising a child as having either sexuality mentally and psycologically should be sparking some rage from them as well, right?

What does the poor kid do when he/she's in public and has to use a bathroom? The idiotic parents are so naive; the kid's going to find out eventually.

Those parents are messed up. And what's really telling about how biased they are is that they didn't allow the boy to wear a skull t-shirt but allowed him to wear blouses and sparkly pink swimsuits. They just want to have a gay son so that they can feel special and tolerant and unique.

There's a story about a baby boy who had a botched circumcision in the 1960s, and was raised as a woman. Around age 14 he used medications to try to turn back into a man (because obviously around puberty he started to mature more like a man than a woman) and eventually shot himself.

The poor 5 year old. He's going to have such a difficult life and it's all because of his stupid parents.

Heres a youtube video about the very same topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjIp4buNH y4