This has been bugging me for the past few days, and I want to know what your opinions are. Firstly, how many of you support abortion? Why? With that answer, please tell me at what point a human becomes a person. At what point is the physical human being given the right to life - and by stealing it, you are a murderer?
___

Personally I don't support the idea or abortion at all - for any reason. If killing the child is the goal or means to the goal, it should not be allowed. So, I would not support abortion even in rape or incest. You must either permit abortion in every case, or forbid it in any case. To oppose abortion and say, "I would allow abortion in the case of rape," seems to go against your own philosophy. What role did the child play in the rape? And, to support abortion seems strange to me (aside from my beliefs) - when does it cease to be abortion, and become murder?

Begin.

At 12/13/11 02:40 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: What role did the child play in the rape?

The child was not involved in the rape but it is a direct product of the rape's occurrence and forever will remind the mother of what had happened. On top of that, most of the time the child is not wanted by either parties, so why put it through a horrible life like that?

I support abortion in order to control the population. I think that the population should remain stagnant. Two children per couple. You can buy and trade something like a "birth card" with people that don't want kids so that you can have more, but if you have one that you are not supposed to have you will be fined and the baby will be aborted. :D

I think it very much depends on the situation: If a woman was raped and became pregnant of the man who raped her, I think it should be allowed. If a couple had unsafe sex, then they have to deal with it theirselves.

I support abortion so incompetent teens/adults have options not to already fuck up a life for an unfortunate newborn.

As much as my parents would hate me for this, I agree with it on only severe occasions, such as rape.

It would be a constant reminder of that woman's terrible experience, even if it wasn't the child's fault.

Any other occasion I would think it is vile. Using abortion as a birth control is selfish and disgusting. If you made the mistake of having sex without protection or otherwise, then you should have that baby.

It's your choice, your fault, your responsibility.

At 12/13/11 02:46 PM, SaltshakerClock wrote:

At 12/13/11 02:40 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: What role did the child play in the rape?

The child was not involved in the rape but it is a direct product of the rape's occurrence and forever will remind the mother of what had happened. On top of that, most of the time the child is not wanted by either parties, so why put it through a horrible life like that?

Well, do you support abortion? If not, rape should be no different. The mother will probably remember the event for the rest of her life whether the child is alive or not. Plus, there is always adoption, etc. A risky prediction of both the mother's and child's life is dangerous - and, I don't consider that a valid excuse for ending a life. There are plenty of cases where both the mother and child move beyond their past - and the child becomes a healthy, normal individual. I don't believe the child should pay the penalty for the actions of the criminal regardless of the mother's potential emotions.

Ironically, I had a school assignment about this just a few days ago.

I think it's sad that people kill their own baby when just because the baby is retarded, have any disfunction, or the parent's regert making the baby. Yeah, I'm against it! But ofcourse if the woman have been raped, might die or anything like that I think it's okay!

People have been taking a lot of abortions lately and It's spreading around teens and stuff, too.

At 12/13/11 02:48 PM, BUTANE wrote: I support abortion in order to control the population.

Over-population is a lie fed to dumbasses like you by Elitists who have and control most of the worlds wealth.

At 12/13/11 02:40 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

With that answer, please tell me at what point a human becomes a person. At what point is the physical human being given the right to life - and by stealing it, you are a murderer?

When they are cognitive enough to acknowledge they're alive. That's one way to look at it another is possibly preventing another fuck up in society.

___

Personally I don't support the idea or abortion at all - for any reason. If killing the child is the goal or means to the goal, it should not be allowed. So, I would not support abortion even in rape or incest. You must either permit abortion in every case, or forbid it in any case. To oppose abortion and say, "I would allow abortion in the case of rape," seems to go against your own philosophy.

What role did the child play in the rape?

Obviously the end result of rape is the only role it has.

And, to support abortion seems strange to me (aside from my beliefs) - when does it cease to be abortion, and become murder?

depends on the person. I have beliefs and morals too but I can also put myself in someone else shoes.

I'm growing of these kind of threads. I'm pro-choice, so whatever a female wants to have an abortion or not I would respect and support that choice.

You asked when a fetus "gain" the right to life, I can only answer that question with the knowledge I've got that I think (and can be mistaken) that if the a women have being carrying more than 12 weeks or so, it has gone so much time for it to have develop a concious.

You mentioned what does a baby has to do with being raped to do. Well nothing, but that baby serves as a reminder of what most women that has been raped would describe as the worst experience in their entire life. So does it seem fair to punish a woman further by making her keep something that was forced upon her to being with.

Look I respect your opinion, but please your not that cut out to start a serious discussion like this. Because face it this is one of the biggest no no area to discuss, and if you going to discuss it you better know what the fuck you're talking about.

At 12/13/11 03:02 PM, Tramps wrote:

At 12/13/11 02:58 PM, escobargames wrote:

At 12/13/11 02:48 PM, BUTANE wrote: I support abortion in order to control the population.

Over-population is a lie fed to dumbasses like you by Elitists who have and control most of the worlds wealth.

FUCK DEM ELITISTS THEY JUST WANT AR JARBS

I don't understand your point, the only problem is the food supply which is heavily controlled by a handful of white people with all the money.

At 12/13/11 03:08 PM, escobargames wrote: a handful of white people with all the money.

CONSPIRACY!

Natick asked me to link this video.

At 12/13/11 02:55 PM, ParadoxSaint wrote:

At 12/13/11 02:40 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: [Do] you support abortion?

I definitely do. People should have the liberty to make the best decisions for themselves. Think about rape victims forced to bear a child spawn of their incident--what if they can't even afford to feed it once it's birthed because they are a single person household with a lower income job?

I do not believe it is right to prioritize a life simply because it began in an earlier period of history. I explained this a little bit in my previous post; but, basically, a prediction of the future should not be a reason for ending a life. The source of the problem (rape) should be addressed instead of the product (human life). Although this is all conceptual, I still believe it should apply to society. There are many beneficial alternatives to abortion.

With that answer, please tell me at what point a human becomes a person.

When the fetus becomes biologically cognizant.

This is not a single instance - self-awarness can develop well into the second or even third year, and would vary from case to case. We would have to designate an undefined "level" of cognizance before allowing an abortion based on it.

What role did the child play in the rape?

It was concieved at the incident of the rape. Put yourself (emotionally and financially) into the shoes of a rape victim... Having to be reminded of the worst day of your life every day of your life is a hefty burden when you're trying to be a parent. No doubt, there would be many PSYCHOLOGICAL complications. Have empathy.

The child was a product of the rape. I can sympathize with those who are burdened with the actions of the rapist, but, emotional toll (and especially financial toll) are not good reasons for ending a life, in my opinion. There is always the option of adoption, and there are plenty of people who get along just fine after the fact. Psychological predictions are pure speculation and should not be used as an argument against abortion - even if the already damaged emotion of the mother would presumably be hurt further.

I dunno, I'd like to think I'm a very logical and scientific person so it would make sense that these are my answers. Science always finds the proof but people are always free make their own decisions afterwards.

I agree. But, science is a very difficult subject with which to argue moralities.

At 12/13/11 02:58 PM, escobargames wrote:

At 12/13/11 02:48 PM, BUTANE wrote: I support abortion in order to control the population.

Over-population is a lie fed to dumbasses like you by Elitists who have and control most of the worlds wealth.

It's not a lie - simply a gross exaggeration and manipulation of information with a hint of persuasive speech.

At 12/13/11 03:15 PM, Mismo wrote: Natick asked me to link this video.

Natick is a credible stand up guy, great video.

Well, if you're so against abortion then don't have an abortion if you're having an unwanted pregnancy. If other people are fine with abortion then let them have an abortion if they feel like it's really necessary.

I don't mind that people are against it, but I do dislike how some amongst them really try to force their opinion regarding this topic upon other people and are even doing their best to make abortion illegal (not saying that you are doing that here by the way, just generally speaking). Having a baby is a life changing decision and above everything I think every person should have the right to decide for themselves what's the right thing to do with an unwanted pregnancy.

Also, I agree with Tramps. There are plenty of good reasons, outside rape, for why abortion would be the best choice. And to be honest, I don't find the commonly heard "cause it's murder" a very strong argument, but that's just my opinion.

At 12/13/11 03:07 PM, Mismo wrote: You asked when a fetus "gain" the right to life, I can only answer that question with the knowledge I've got that I think (and can be mistaken) that if the a women have being carrying more than 12 weeks or so, it has gone so much time for it to have develop a concious.

This is possible, but the variables of this are so widespread, it is a bad argument. I might agree if all humans developed self-awareness at a specific point in life.

You mentioned what does a baby has to do with being raped to do. Well nothing, but that baby serves as a reminder of what most women that has been raped would describe as the worst experience in their entire life. So does it seem fair to punish a woman further by making her keep something that was forced upon her to being with.

This "reminder" point seems to be the strongest with pro-choicers. I am severely against the idea of killing someone simply because one MIGHT feel bad. I can't rationalize a life being a punishment for someone. With this, the baby is being punished ultimately for the mother's supposed inability to cope. I prioritize life over chanced (and temporary) depression. Perhaps some disagree - that's fine. But then, we can justify the Nazi aggression, seeing as the Jews were the supposed cause of Germany's dire situation post-WWI. (I'm not trying to divert the discussion - I was simply making a point).

Look I respect your opinion, but please your not that cut out to start a serious discussion like this. Because face it this is one of the biggest no no area to discuss, and if you going to discuss it you better know what the fuck you're talking about.

How does one become "cut out" to have a justified opinion about a serious matter (life)? Lack of discussion is a big problem with today's society, and I am offended that you would challenge my background in this subject - given that I have simply asked questions directed to you, and voiced my own rational opinion on the matter. If you are not here to debate, or if you think this is "too mature", go elsewhere.

At 12/13/11 03:24 PM, Tateos wrote: There is absolutely no such thing that is either black or white. There is always gray in between, there will always be mixed feelings, specific conditions that might change opinion, etc. This goes for abortion as well. There are cases where a child would be put under conditions that would be so detrimental to the point where it seems it would be almost cruel to make the offspring go through that.

I believe in black and whites, because they are absolutes. The only time I would allow abortion is if the life of the mother is in definite jeopardy, or in the case of a cancerous uterus for example. In neither case is the death of the baby a goal or a means for the goal (plus the life of the mother "balances" the issue, and chance/probabilities can be used - such as the chance of the child living afterwards). Granted, these things should be taken situationally; but, I still stand by extreme right to life.

Addressed the second half of your post multiple times in the thread.

I fully support abortion in the case of Rape, incest and accidental pregnancy because I think the mother's rights should come before the foetus- for instance with the rape, how would YOU feel having the constant reminder of an awful traumatic experience following you around everywhere? at least with scars you can cover them up. Accidental pregancies can be unavoidable with condoms splitting and the pill failing, and incest is as much for the child as it is for the mother- there was one spanish king who was the result of many generations of cousin-fucking and he was so retarded that he literally could not function as a human being- the poor bugger couldn't even feed himself as an adult.

TL;DR- sometimes abortion is for the best- especially if the woman is not ready to be a mother or even go through with the act of having a baby.

I'm against abortion. You don't have to keep the baby, but it deserves a chance at life at least.

At 12/13/11 03:40 PM, Sensationalism wrote:

At 12/13/11 03:17 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

The source of the problem (rape) should be addressed instead of the product (human life). There are many beneficial alternatives to abortion.
Okay I have been through this. If it had gotten me pregnant, first of all I would hate that child with every ounce of my being. Secondly, the amount of stress a person is in would probably cause a miscarriage anyway and if that didn't ... [etc.]

None of this is the fault of the child, and I still believe there is a possibility for recovery rather than solving a temporary problem through permanent means.

I care more about the life that already exists than I do about a potential life that doesn't need to come to fruition.

This is why I wanted to define when "potential" life becomes life. Life itself begins at conception. But, at what point does this cell become human, and subsequently a person? Innocence prevents me from believing it is right to hold a child responsible for the actions and results.

Especially when the person is a child herself and the pregnancy is dangerous, seems very stupid to force her to have it for the sake of creating life.

Well, we never specified that the pregnancy was dangerous and to what extent. it seems very stupid to me that you would kill a life due to temporary emotion, predictions, and/or selfishness.

I support abortion if the mothers life is in jeopardy.
But honestly I dont think people should be in the way of a womans choice to have an abortion or not. It's their life they have a right to do what they think is best for themselves.

At 12/13/11 03:50 PM, ParadoxSaint wrote:

At 12/13/11 03:17 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: I agree. But, science is a very difficult subject with which to argue moralities.

I can agree with that. But do you think--since people obviously have different moral values--that a particular group of people's moral values should be imposed on everyone or do you think the individual should have the option of being "morally virtuous" or not?

I believe everyone has a right to their own personal morals and beliefs. I believe you should be able to chose between doing something wrong or not. I feel that my purpose is to inform others, provoke critical thought, and question uneducated opinions before someone makes that decision - especially when life is involved. So, no, nobody should "impose" their morals on someone. But, it shouldn't hurt to voice an opinion that you may not have heard before and could cause a more beneficial result.

Think, if abortion were illegal there would be more problems than it would solve and there would be no free will for people vocationally display their values. More problems and no values because there is no choice in the first place.

Yes, i am not well-rounded enough in law to be able to argue whether or not it should be legal. I'm simply thinking philosophically. Is abortion right? If not, then the decision to abort is wrong whether it is legal or not. But, none of this is objective - I understand.

At 12/13/11 03:57 PM, MoriChax wrote:

It's their life they have a right to do what they think is best for themselves.

I think you said it all right there. These people who get abortions only care about number one. There are plenty of couples wanting to adopt that can't bare children.

I don't support abortion at all, even in the case of rape. I don't buy the whole "emotional toll" argument either. My great-grandmother was raped and she didn't have an abortion. She gave birth to my grandfather, who went on to help make my father, who helped make me. My great-grandmother (she's still alive) doesn't seem to despise us or my grandfather due to her experience. She's perfectly happy with us. As for those who don't want to live with the "reminder of their rape," put the child up for adoption and you never have to see it again.

I see this thread going horribly horribly wrong.

At 12/13/11 04:00 PM, Tramps wrote: I don't mean to shit on people's beliefs, but do you not think it's fairly backwards thinking to have such strong views against abortion yet condone pre-marital sex when it only seems like it's conditioned to people through religion that it's wrong?

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean to ask why some support pre-marital and not abortion, and also why religion is usually incorporated? if so, I can only answer the first. Pre-marital sex itself does not create a human being. There are many other irresponsibilities that would play into effect. That could be why some believe this. I am not sure why religion plays such a huge role in it other than the fact that most religious people still hold life to be precious. But, don't allow me to speak for everyone.

I understand the concept of murder and the preservation of life but at what point is it 'life' for you, Emma? Is it murder to kill a sperm cell and an egg cell? Is it murder to kill a sperm and an egg cell that were going to create a baby but hadn't begun the process yet? You can't claim that a cell has consciousness as soon as these two cells are combined as it would imply that it's wrong to kill the cells as it is.

Well first, I never said that a cell has consciousness - I just said it is not defined when the being develops it, seeing as it is a process and not a reaction. I don't believe it is wrong to kill sperm or egg cells. But, when the reaction has begun, I believe they "become" human. However, this does not mean the human is a person - and that's what I am asking.

The only way forward is scientific thinking and although so far we've paved most of our laws with a hint of religion where morals need not apply, to refute scientific evidence is only decreasing our rate of advancement as a species.

Hmm, it's not the only way forward; it's the most popular one. Religion once held the majority in controversial decisions such as these - and that way of thinking (for the most part) seems right to me. Your second part: how here is religion hindering scientific advancement; and more importantly, where is the scientific evidence in either direction. Science is a self-repairing, mostly objective source. When you use it to make morality decisions, it becomes subjective interpretation and should not be paraded around as an absolute. I would argue more about this, but I am trying not to bring religion into this for as long as possible.

If a Child is the concept of rape. ITS HIS FAULT. That little fucker should have known.

At 12/13/11 03:53 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:
None of this is the fault of the child, and I still believe there is a possibility for recovery rather than solving a temporary problem through permanent means.

of course it's not the fault of the child, but nonetheless the problems caused outweigh the benefit of the life created. If you suffer a traumatic experience, it stays with you for life- it affects your every thought, decision, movement etc. for example, I spilled a pot of boiling water over myself by accident age 4- 15 years ago, and I still get flashbacks to that when cooking. I nearly drowned age 6 and I still don't like going near the sea at high tide.

This is why I wanted to define when "potential" life becomes life. Life itself begins at conception. But, at what point does this cell become human, and subsequently a person? Innocence prevents me from believing it is right to hold a child responsible for the actions and results.

you see, I don't think life begins at conception, as I feel that life really only begins when the foetus's heart gets to the point when it could conceivably beat.

Well, we never specified that the pregnancy was dangerous and to what extent. it seems very stupid to me that you would kill a life due to temporary emotion, predictions, and/or selfishness.

in the places where contraception and/or abortion are illegal, deaths during childbirth are higher than places where they are legal. you're basically saying that you'd rather the baby survives and the mother dies when nobody has formed a real emotional bond with an aborted foetus- it's a "life" where the only love is from the parents. in other words, it would upset more people for the mother to die in childbirth than for a foetus to be aborted.

even if you believe what you believe, to say that abortion should be illegal because it clashes with your own beliefs is as selfish as abortion as a form of contraception.

yeah that's right- shades of grey. Black and White work to a point, but even the simplest questions have more than one answer. there is good and there is evil, but not only can this be subjective- the islamic suicide bombers genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the good of the world, Hitler believed that what he was doing was the right thing- but there are some times when whatever you do it's going to be bad for someone.