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Anarchy in the U.S.

3,175 Views | 54 Replies

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-17 14:42:35


Anarchy is generally a bad word to use unless you are looking to troll (which is totally acceptable and lulzy)

Use the term "anarchocapitalism" because it's much more descriptive and doesn't have the definitions of "chaos" and "communism" that has been attributed to "anarchy"

Anarchocapitalism is the ideal, but it's not likely to happen. I support it, and I'll clearly do my best to achieve such a society, but it's not likely when most people aren't aware that such a society would even work.

I'll shorten my rant that I generally give here. The foundation of any economy is supply and demand. In anarchocapitalism, we simply take out all government intervention and let supply and demand work without hindrance. Any problem you can think of with capitalism can be solved with supply and demand. Slavery? Monopolies? War lords? Well, there's a demand to have those removed, right? Not many people would be supportive of such things, correct? Well, then people looking to profit will appeal to that demand and supply it.

The government is essentially a monopoly on a bunch of different services. Without a government, all the things it provides would not disappear (people wouldn't stop wanting police protection all of a sudden), they would just have competition.

There are plenty of historical examples of arachocapitalism working fine (until a state took them over). See: Ireland, American West, Hunter-Gatherer Tribes (Just check wikipedia)

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 13:25:36


At 8/17/09 02:42 PM, Kajio wrote: Use the term "anarchocapitalism" because it's much more descriptive and doesn't have the definitions of "chaos" and "communism" that has been attributed to "anarchy"

Hooray! An anarchist with a brain!

Any problem you can think of with capitalism can be solved with supply and demand. Slavery? Monopolies? War lords? Well, there's a demand to have those removed, right? Not many people would be supportive of such things, correct? Well, then people looking to profit will appeal to that demand and supply it.

That's not capitalism, not even anarcho-capitalism. Just because you used the word "demand" doesn't mean you're talking about supply and demand. You're talking about public opinion shaping a financial decision beyond the context of supply and demand.

There is no such thing in pure capitalism as "demand to have something removed." There is boycotting, if that's what you mean, but really how effective would that be? How do you boycott the corporation that owns the military? And who's really going to boycott the cheapest goods simply because they were made by slaves?

they would just have competition.

They would have competition until the competitors consolidated through natural market forces.

There are plenty of historical examples of arachocapitalism working fine (until a state took them over). See: Ireland, American West, Hunter-Gatherer Tribes (Just check wikipedia)

I'm confused exactly what you mean by "working fine" if those are the examples you're giving.


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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 15:56:46


"Anarcho"-capitalism isn't anarchism, nor is it ideal, nor is it realistic.
Anarchism IS a socialist ideology, and 'libertarian' was originally synonomous with 'libertarian socialist', and still is in some parts of the world. "Anarcho"-capitalism didn't appear until the 60s', and it's an ironically named, intellectually bankrupt ideology. Suggesting capitalism can't exist without a state to keep the working class from tearing apart the capitalists (who would remain the ruling class anyway) is proposterous. "Anarcho"-capitalists are fucking idealists, they live in a fantasy world where every one will be rich. The reality is, however, there will still be a divide between classes, poverty, surplus population, and the upper-classes will become the ruling class; Which is not anarchism.
Anarchists believe in a stateless, classless society, organized non-hiearchially by the workers so in that sense, all anarchists are communists. What seperates anarchists from other kinds of communists, is organization of/getting to this new society. Anarchists do not believe communism is something which can be imposed by the state, as do Marxist-Leninists, anarchists believe workers themselves should take direct control of their workplaces.

The ignorance regarding the subject of anarchism and communism on these forums is fucking astounding. For (seemingly) everyone here, every communist is a genocidal Marxist-Leninist, or they think anarchism/communism "works in theory, but not in practice" which is a rather stupid statement to make. If something works in theory, it's ridiculous to suggest in won't work in practice.
The amount of right-wing 'Anarcho'-capitalists, or 'libertarians' on here is also quite astounding. Capitalist propaganda clearly retards critical thinking.

For those who see the word 'anarchy', or 'anarchist', or 'anarchism', and think it's some belief that there should be nothing, no organization, no order, I'd suggest you do some fucking research. Allow me to help:
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_arc hives/malatesta/anarchy.html
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_arc hives/kropotkin/britanniaanarchy.html
http://www.lucyparsonsproject.org/anarch ism/berkman_abc_of_anarchism.html
http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libcom .html

Anarchism in practice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_C atalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territ ory_(Ukraine)

It would be nice of most of you actually knew something about anarchism and communsm, before you came to your ill-informed, inaccurate conclusions. Like Bob Dylan said, "Don't criticise what you can't understand".
Also, the subject of this thread is ignorant in itself. Anarchism is not a national liberation movement, it's an internationalist worker liberation movement. However, anarchism does in fact work in practice.


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 16:03:59


anarchism doe not work either does any form of Socialism/communism ITS A FACT.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 16:08:03


At 8/18/09 04:03 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: anarchism doe not work either does any form of Socialism/communism ITS A FACT.

One sentence replies to several paragraphs doesn't cut it.
In my opinion, you don't belong in this section of the forum, basically because you didn't bother to read anything I posted. Nor do you offer any arguements, just bottomless statements.

You're a philistine, now THAT'S a fact.


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 16:14:53


At 8/18/09 04:08 PM, Kev-o wrote:
At 8/18/09 04:03 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: anarchism doe not work either does any form of Socialism/communism ITS A FACT.
One sentence replies to several paragraphs doesn't cut it.
In my opinion, you don't belong in this section of the forum, basically because you didn't bother to read anything I posted. Nor do you offer any arguements, just bottomless statements.

You're a philistine, now THAT'S a fact.

me a philistine yeah right im a fucking realist. everyone knows that Communism socialism and anarchism does not work you know why? it either gets abused corrupt or falls apart (or all of the above) because of one factor THE HUMAN ONE you cant get rid of the human factor and another reason is because no one is equal that is a FACT. only Idealists that have no grasp of reality embrace Communism/Socialism and anarchism.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 16:39:57


At 8/18/09 01:25 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:
Any problem you can think of with capitalism can be solved with supply and demand. Slavery? Monopolies? War lords? Well, there's a demand to have those removed, right? Not many people would be supportive of such things, correct? Well, then people looking to profit will appeal to that demand and supply it.
That's not capitalism, not even anarcho-capitalism. Just because you used the word "demand" doesn't mean you're talking about supply and demand. You're talking about public opinion shaping a financial decision beyond the context of supply and demand.

I can assume that you understand what supply and demand is, correct? Supply is how much of something there is, and demand is how much people want it. For the most profitability, you set prices based on these, and it's best to have supply and demand, pretty well balanced out. You don't want a surplus, because then you have too much just sitting around, and you don't want a dearth, because that leads to all sorts of problems (See: Next-gen consoles first released)

There is a demand for goods/services to be made morally. If there wasn't why does the government enforce this anyway? If no one wants goods to be made morally, is it not a waste of money to have the government doing this?

However, there is a demand. On a pure free market, that means there would be a supply, because people, oh so surprisingly, want money.

There is no such thing in pure capitalism as "demand to have something removed." There is boycotting, if that's what you mean, but really how effective would that be? How do you boycott the corporation that owns the military? And who's really going to boycott the cheapest goods simply because they were made by slaves?

So, you honestly would not want slavery removed? You are a-okay with that? That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you are fine with slavery, why support a government that isn't?

Boycotting works. If 80% of people are against slavery, and you use it, then you just lost 80% of your market. You have to be pretty profitable to pull that off. What if only 10% of people were against slavery? You could probably pull it off at that point. However, if only 10% of people were against slavery, would it be right for a government to step in and stop slavery?

How could a company own the military? How many people do you know willing to join the military? How many just for the money? How many when the military is going to be used to extort people (well, in an obvious way. The military does extort people, but it's masked with plenty of "liberating" ideals)? How hard would it be for an opposition to spring up that would have all the support because they are fighting against the coercive military? How easy is it for a coercive military to even function when it needs to fight guerrilla wars to control its subjects.

they would just have competition.
They would have competition until the competitors consolidated through natural market forces.

So Ford, Honda, Toyota? It's just a matter of time before they are all one company, right?

There are plenty of historical examples of arachocapitalism working fine (until a state took them over). See: Ireland, American West, Hunter-Gatherer Tribes (Just check wikipedia)
I'm confused exactly what you mean by "working fine" if those are the examples you're giving.

Ireland, before the British came along, was a society without a state (a coercive government). No one was forced into being part of the government, but chose to do so for their own benefit. It's better to work together, you know? There was unlimited succession, and little use of violence to maintain order.

The "Wild" West, had no state at first either. It was also, not very wild. Ever hear about the shootout at the Okay Corral? It's the most infamous gunfight of the entire west. It was the most bloody conflict recorded, with the most people dying in the time period. Three people were killed. Conflicts were resolved peacefully most of the time, with the Sheriff and some of the town's men working things out without need for violence.

Hunter-Gatherer societies worked... otherwise we wouldn't be here. The beginnings of civilization and human beings started in hunter-gatherer societies. In such societies there is no magical government that would put the members in prison if they stole from others in the group. People functioned together because it was what was best for them.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 17:00:02


At 8/18/09 03:56 PM, Kev-o wrote: "Anarcho"-capitalism isn't anarchism, nor is it ideal, nor is it realistic.

I will say this one thousand times before anybody pays attention to this: I HATE definitions. Everyone has different definitions for everything, especially when it comes to religion, politics, and music.

Anarchocapitalism is of coarse no Utopian society. You'll find that most anarchists are quite pragmatic when it comes to human behavior. I have no delusions that people aren't lying, stealing, killing, scumbags who would kill their own family for profit.

Anarchism IS a socialist ideology, and 'libertarian' was originally synonomous with 'libertarian socialist', and still is in some parts of the world. "Anarcho"-capitalism didn't appear until the 60s', and it's an ironically named, intellectually bankrupt ideology. Suggesting capitalism can't exist without a state to keep the working class from tearing apart the capitalists (who would remain the ruling class anyway) is proposterous. "Anarcho"-capitalists are fucking idealists, they live in a fantasy world where every one will be rich. The reality is, however, there will still be a divide between classes, poverty, surplus population, and the upper-classes will become the ruling class; Which is not anarchism.

Ignoring all the crap about words... it's not constructive to talk about definitions...

Who's suggesting this? Capitalism can surely exist can with a state, just not a pure free market. Anytime someone violently forces another to use their money (taxation) then it's not a pure free market, but a mixed economy. It can certainly still be capitalistic.

Anarchists believe in a stateless, classless society, organized non-hiearchially by the workers so in that sense, all anarchists are communists. What seperates anarchists from other kinds of communists, is organization of/getting to this new society. Anarchists do not believe communism is something which can be imposed by the state, as do Marxist-Leninists, anarchists believe workers themselves should take direct control of their workplaces.

This is a completely different definition of anarchy. I specifically stated that I used the word anarchocapitalism to separate myself from communistic anarchists. There certainly are anarchists out there who are essentially communists. I am not one of them.

The ignorance regarding the subject of anarchism and communism on these forums is fucking astounding. For (seemingly) everyone here, every communist is a genocidal Marxist-Leninist, or they think anarchism/communism "works in theory, but not in practice" which is a rather stupid statement to make. If something works in theory, it's ridiculous to suggest in won't work in practice.

Well, the idea behind that "works in theory, not in practice" statement is that when dealing with theory, people forget to factor in basic human behavior and assume that people will do what makes the system work.

Then the practice fails because humans don't do what the system needs them to do for it to work. In a free market, all that people need to do, is do what is profitable. If they don't they will fail, not the system.

The amount of right-wing 'Anarcho'-capitalists, or 'libertarians' on here is also quite astounding. Capitalist propaganda clearly retards critical thinking.

Anarchocapitalists and libertarians are much more left-leaning than right. Sure economically, they kinda are more right (but not really, because republicans want more government spending, just on military and police, and enforcing bullshit laws and not in the economy) but most Anarchocapitalists and libertarians are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage; pro-freedom in general.


For those who see the word 'anarchy', or 'anarchist', or 'anarchism', and think it's some belief that there should be nothing, no organization, no order, I'd suggest you do some fucking research. Allow me to help:

That's another definition that I said specifically that I wanted to separate myself from. Anarchy does not mean absolutely no government, (and spare me the disambiguation of the word) it simply means to state, no coercive government, no extortion or violent force.

People want order, and organization, so people will try their best to get it. As seen in Ireland, the West, and Hunter-Gatherer societies, there can be order and organization without a state.

It would be nice of most of you actually knew something about anarchism and communsm, before you came to your ill-informed, inaccurate conclusions. Like Bob Dylan said, "Don't criticise what you can't understand".
Also, the subject of this thread is ignorant in itself. Anarchism is not a national liberation movement, it's an internationalist worker liberation movement. However, anarchism does in fact work in practice

Anarchocapitalism is not communism... it's capitalism, just without a state. It would be nice if you followed your own quotes. Don't criticize what you don't understand. If you think anarchocapitalism is communism, you clearly don't understand it.

Please view: http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/fa q.html

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 17:11:13


At 8/18/09 04:14 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote:
me a philistine yeah right im a fucking realist. everyone knows that Communism socialism and anarchism does not work you know why? it either gets abused corrupt or falls apart (or all of the above) because of one factor THE HUMAN ONE you cant get rid of the human factor and another reason is because no one is equal that is a FACT. only Idealists that have no grasp of reality embrace Communism/Socialism and anarchism.

These aren't facts, these are poorly-worded, unsubstaintiated 'arguements'.
How about you, you know, explore the links I posted?
I posted two links proving anarchist communism has worked in practice, but you're too fucking stupid and lazy to read. I'm sure if it was a critique of the Muslim religion, or pictures of mutilated corpses, you'd be all over it.
Believe it or not, just because things are this way, doesn't mean that's how they should be, or that's the only way they can be. You need to recognize a new way of organizing society is not only possible, but inevitable.
You need to learn to think for yourself, and not believe every lie your oppressors told you about communism or anarchism, but you won't...


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 17:33:24


At 8/18/09 05:11 PM, Kev-o wrote:
At 8/18/09 04:14 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote:
me a philistine yeah right im a fucking realist. everyone knows that Communism socialism and anarchism does not work you know why? it either gets abused corrupt or falls apart (or all of the above) because of one factor THE HUMAN ONE you cant get rid of the human factor and another reason is because no one is equal that is a FACT. only Idealists that have no grasp of reality embrace Communism/Socialism and anarchism.
These aren't facts, these are poorly-worded, unsubstaintiated 'arguements'.

alight SOVIET UNION LAOS CHINA NORTH KOREA CUBA trying to be communist but ended up a Dictatorship or authoritairian. perfect example of Human Nature. those with power wont give it up.

How about you, you know, explore the links I posted?
I posted two links proving anarchist communism has worked in practice, but you're too fucking stupid and lazy to read.

I couldn't read the first couple ( comp troubles) but the wiki articles came up. Anarchist Catonlia ended up under minded and only lasted for for two-three years and Free Territory only lasted 2 years because allied groups thought the other was unreliable so they broke off.

I'm sure if it was a critique of the Muslim religion, or pictures of mutilated corpses, you'd be all over it.

thats jut a past time for me. I don't approve of religions that Demean woman and ostracize other religions and those with other Gender Expressions.

Believe it or not, just because things are this way, doesn't mean that's how they should be, or that's the only way they can be. You need to recognize a new way of organizing society is not only possible, but inevitable.

yeah r

You need to learn to think for yourself, and not believe every lie your oppressors told you about communism or anarchism, but you won't...

sorry but I am a "oppresser" Im in the US military (IE THE GREATEST TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE STATE)

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 17:52:00


At 8/18/09 05:00 PM, Kajio wrote:
I will say this one thousand times before anybody pays attention to this: I HATE definitions. Everyone has different definitions for everything, especially when it comes to religion, politics, and music.

You hating definitions doesn't change them.

Anarchocapitalism is of coarse no Utopian society. You'll find that most anarchists are quite pragmatic when it comes to human behavior. I have no delusions that people aren't lying, stealing, killing, scumbags who would kill their own family for profit.

Neither do I, but I recognize that human conditioning, not 'human nature' is to be blamed. This conditioning comes from living in a capitalist society, and being indoctrinated by the state. If there's no such thing as profit, I doubt anyone would kill their family over it.


Ignoring all the crap about words... it's not constructive to talk about definitions...

I'm sorry for refering to the RELEVANT definitions, you know, the ones that make sense..

Who's suggesting this? Capitalism can surely exist can with a state, just not a pure free market. Anytime someone violently forces another to use their money (taxation) then it's not a pure free market, but a mixed economy. It can certainly still be capitalistic.

I said "capitalism can't exist without the state". The capitalist class will remain the ruling class, thus making it not anarchism.
A free-market is a complete fantasy.

This is a completely different definition of anarchy. I specifically stated that I used the word anarchocapitalism to separate myself from communistic anarchists. There certainly are anarchists out there who are essentially communists. I am not one of them.

You're simply not an anarchist, nor is "anarcho"-capitalism anarchism, that's the point I'm making.

Well, the idea behind that "works in theory, not in practice" statement is that when dealing with theory, people forget to factor in basic human behavior and assume that people will do what makes the system work.

SOCIALism. Yeah, they weren't considering people at al...

Then the practice fails because humans don't do what the system needs them to do for it to work. In a free market, all that people need to do, is do what is profitable. If they don't they will fail, not the system.

Which is a stupid idea.
Start a violent street gang, that's profitable.
Rob a bank, that's profitable.
Kill your family for insurance money, that's profitable.
But, you seem to be fine with people tearing each other apart.
Not everyone can own a legitimate business, you know.

Anarchocapitalists and libertarians are much more left-leaning than right. Sure economically, they kinda are more right (but not really, because republicans want more government spending, just on military and police, and enforcing bullshit laws and not in the economy) but most Anarchocapitalists and libertarians are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage; pro-freedom in general.

Bullshit. "Anarcho"-capitalism is laissez-faire capitalism repackaged, it's right-wing. I know plenty of racist, homophobic libertarians who are "pro-life", and against gay marriage. Many of the recent so-called "National-anarchists" (who are also irrelevant to the anarchist movement) have been off spouting capitalist bullshit.

That's another definition that I said specifically that I wanted to separate myself from. Anarchy does not mean absolutely no government, (and spare me the disambiguation of the word) it simply means to state, no coercive government, no extortion or violent force.

But, it does mean ABSOLUTELY NO GOVERNMENT. It's a way of organizing society without state or capital. All government is coercive.
Extortion and violent force will exist as long as capitalism does.


Anarchocapitalism is not communism... it's capitalism, just without a state. It would be nice if you followed your own quotes. Don't criticize what you don't understand. If you think anarchocapitalism is communism, you clearly don't understand it.

No shit it's not communism, it's not anarchism either, in fact that's my entire point.
"Anarcho"-capitalism is completely irrelevant to the anarchist movement in general.


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 18:12:09


At 8/18/09 05:33 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote:
alight SOVIET UNION LAOS CHINA NORTH KOREA CUBA trying to be communist but ended up a Dictatorship or authoritairian. perfect example of Human Nature. those with power wont give it up.

All of those "communist countries" (which is redundant, considering communism can only exist on a international scale) were Marxist-Leninist, that is, authoriatarian communists. None of them desired to give up power, nor did any of them practice real communism.
Marxists-Leninists advocate the state to bring about communism, whereas I believe the workers should bring about communism themselves, which is what makes me an anarchist.
Also, the Soviet Union was known to execute anarchists, so the USSR (or any other nation) have nothing to do with MY views. Fidel Castro also expelled plenty of Anarcho-syndicalists when he was in power.

I couldn't read the first couple ( comp troubles) but the wiki articles came up. Anarchist Catonlia ended up under minded and only lasted for for two-three years and Free Territory only lasted 2 years because allied groups thought the other was unreliable so they broke off.

Anarchist Catalonia was defeated by Franco (who had support from Hitler), reactionary capitalists and the Soviet-backed Stalinists. It's failure is not a failure of the ideology, but simply failure to defend the revolution from three different fronts.
The Free Territory was crushed by the USSR, which again, has nothing to with how the ideology works in practice.

thats jut a past time for me. I don't approve of religions that Demean woman and ostracize other religions and those with other Gender Expressions.

ALL religions demean women and ostracise other religions.

yeah r

Too lazy to finish a sentence?

sorry but I am a "oppresser" Im in the US military (IE THE GREATEST TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE STATE)

Atleast you're aware of that. Hopefully, you'll get shot, that'd be good for a person like you.


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 18:24:03


mmm...

Anarchy can't work. without laws the life is very difficult ... clearly i prefer a form of communism, at least solve the rubbish that's in usa

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 18:24:51


At 8/18/09 04:39 PM, Kajio wrote: If no one wants goods to be made morally, is it not a waste of money to have the government doing this?

No one wants goods to be made morally? Did I say that?

However, there is a demand. On a pure free market, that means there would be a supply, because people, oh so surprisingly, want money.

Monopolies are the most efficient means to accruing concentrated assets.

So, you honestly would not want slavery removed? You are a-okay with that? That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you are fine with slavery, why support a government that isn't?

.... are you real?

Boycotting works. If 80% of people are against slavery, and you use it, then you just lost 80% of your market.

You assume everyone in that 80% values a stance against slavery an equal and absolute amount.

You also assume the target consumer for this slave-produced product is everyone.

However, if only 10% of people were against slavery, would it be right for a government to step in and stop slavery?

Are we talking about the civil war? Or are we talking about future free market world? Cause your above question doesn't apply to... well... either.

How could a company own the military?

If we're talking free market - no government - then free market born entities will assume prior federal roles. The scale is not determinable however...

... a purely free market will be a spawning ground for monopolies. Therefore it's not far fetched to assume that some entity will have a monolopy on protection services.

How many people do you know willing to join the military?

You're actually asking me for anecdotal evidence? Is this a trap?

How many just for the money? How many when the military is going to be used to extort people (well, in an obvious way. The military does extort people, but it's masked with plenty of "liberating" ideals)?

Reasons people join the army...

1. Money
2. Education
3. Honor
4. Adventure
5. Retirement/Vet benefits
6. Family tradition

How hard would it be for an opposition to spring up that would have all the support because they are fighting against the coercive military?

Wait what? By this logic no government would have support.

How easy is it for a coercive military to even function when it needs to fight guerrilla wars to control its subjects.

You clearly haven't heard of Africa.

So Ford, Honda, Toyota? It's just a matter of time before they are all one company, right?

http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004 /03/who_owns_who.html

Or for a better example look at infastructure industries like telecom.

Ireland, before the British came along, was a society without a state (a coercive government). No one was forced into being part of the government, but chose to do so for their own benefit. It's better to work together, you know? There was unlimited succession, and little use of violence to maintain order.

Specific period by year please.

The "Wild" West, had no state at first either. It was also, not very wild. Ever hear about the shootout at the Okay Corral? It's the most infamous gunfight of the entire west. It was the most bloody conflict recorded, with the most people dying in the time period. Three people were killed. Conflicts were resolved peacefully most of the time, with the Sheriff and some of the town's men working things out without need for violence.

Thanks to a free market?

Hunter-Gatherer societies worked... otherwise we wouldn't be here.

By this logic anything within our lineage worked.


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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 18:26:17


At 8/18/09 06:24 PM, oOWild69Oo wrote: mmm...

Anarchy can't work. without laws the life is very difficult ... clearly i prefer a form of communism, at least solve the rubbish that's in usa

I'm not suggesting no laws, I'm suggesting no state.
Anarchism is the way of organizing society without the state, and without capitalism. It IS communism.


"We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves."-Errico Malatesta

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 18:48:31


At 8/18/09 06:26 PM, Kev-o wrote:
At 8/18/09 06:24 PM, oOWild69Oo wrote: mmm...

Anarchy can't work. without laws the life is very difficult ... clearly i prefer a form of communism, at least solve the rubbish that's in usa
I'm not suggesting no laws, I'm suggesting no state.
Anarchism is the way of organizing society without the state, and without capitalism. It IS communism.

Anarchy is, by definition, a state of lawlessness. No authority. To suggest that at it's core, anarchy is some form of communism is fucking retarded. Anarchy is not everyone working together locally, anarchy is my boot in your face because you disagree, OK? Anarchy is the breakdown of society, rules, and justice. It's not some utopian goal where there are no rules or governments because "everyones just cool with each other, y'know?".

No. That's something else.*

Anarchy is supposed to be an undesirable state of affairs. To suggest otherwise is to commit yourself to the entropy of communication.

* also called a utopia

"A witty quote proves nothing."

~Voltaire

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 19:28:34


Why you sent this in a PM, I'll never know.

At 8/18/09 6:59 PM, Kev-o wrote: 'Anarchism' is not the same thing as 'Anarchy' (as you know it to be), although the terms can be used interchangably.
Anarchism is a 200-year-old political philosophy that offers ways to organize society without the state.
Explore the links I posted in that topic.

And it's not utopian, it's realistic.

"anarchism" needs a better name. See also what I said about the entropy of communication.

If you think the name some dipshits gave themselves based off of a misguided idea of what anarchy truly is somehow transforms the word into meaning what they want, then you're pretty much making the word meaningless. DOUBLE PLUS GOOD.

I read your links, and I somehow doubt the Spanish civil war has fuck-all to do with my point, but thanks anyway</sarcasm>


"A witty quote proves nothing."

~Voltaire

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 19:34:31


At 8/18/09 06:24 PM, Bacchanalian wrote: No one wants goods to be made morally? Did I say that?

Hypothetical, my good man.

Monopolies are the most efficient means to accruing concentrated assets.

Certainly, however I doubt you'll find many people who are content with a monopoly. People want competition, so competition will come about.

You assume everyone in that 80% values a stance against slavery an equal and absolute amount.

...you're aware 80% was a random number, right?
If the product was meant for only people who supported slavery (or something) then that's either 1)Perfectly fine or 2)People would be willing to pay/volunteer to stop it.

If we're talking free market - no government - then free market born entities will assume prior federal roles. The scale is not determinable however...

Only to the point that the market allows. If there isn't a demand for a huge, overbearing, controlling military, then people would not pay for it, and fight to stop extortion (probably by paying for other defence).

... a purely free market will be a spawning ground for monopolies. Therefore it's not far fetched to assume that some entity will have a monolopy on protection services.

Of coarse such an assumption is no far stretch given the assumption that a free market is a spawning ground for monopolies.

People don't like monopolies, and the market is all about people's desires and needs.

Wait what? By this logic no government would have support.

With some decent education, that's the ideal.

You clearly haven't heard of Africa.

Those wars are often religiously, or nationally motivated. The wars are sustainable because the people fighting are tricked into thinking its righteous. Without magic governments to stand behind, this is more difficult for people to do.

People aren't generally willing to die... and even those who are willing to die for what is "right" don't want to fight for a company.

http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004 /03/who_owns_who.html

Or for a better example look at infastructure industries like telecom.

Those aren't monopolies. A few companies merging doesn't make the free market a monopoly spawning ground.

Specific period by year please.

Gaelic Ireland (650-1650)
First one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ana rchist_communities

Thanks to a free market?

Um... what? I'm not saying that the West was peaceful because of the free market, but it was peaceful, and didn't have a state. Stateless societies can function well, was the point.

Hunter-Gatherer societies worked... otherwise we wouldn't be here.
By this logic anything within our lineage worked.

Okay... Hunter-gatherer societies did work. You are aware of this, correct? They functioned well, and survived. If they didn't, we would not have been able to create civilization in the way we have... Hunter-gatherer societies also had no state. That's another example of people working together without the government putting them in their corners.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 20:22:54


At 8/18/09 06:12 PM, Kev-o wrote:
At 8/18/09 05:33 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: yeah r
Too lazy to finish a sentence?

no I had to copy paste my arguement and quit my browser restart it and reconnect my connection then repaste my post sorry about that I did have a response for that but I forgot it now.

sorry but I am a "oppresser" Im in the US military (IE THE GREATEST TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE STATE)
Atleast you're aware of that. Hopefully, you'll get shot, that'd be good for a person like you.

yeah and get a purple heart even though I am considering going for officer status which would be a great money maker and I get to call the shots.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-18 23:33:03


Kev-o is unintentionally hitting a good point about the term Anarchy.

Ok... on the Word Anarchy.

The first Anarchist that i know of was William Godwin.

Godwin noted that most of societies catastrophes (Wars, plagues, etc.) were caused by struggles for property or land. (Wealth, property and land were all synonymous in the days when society was mainly agricultural) Godwin concluded that society would be benefited if 'private property' were abolished, which essentially meant, land/property that was held in the hands of an individual/small group rather than the whole of society.

Godwin then noted that, at the time, a significantly large portion of 'private property' was held in the hands of the State or those who were connected to the state. (Ex, king and clergy) Godwin THEN concluded that in order to abolish private property, it was necessary to abolish the state.

Godwin lived before the industrial revolution and had little conception of private property as it pertained to individuals who were separate of the state, or of justly acquired property through means of exchange. I think this is why so many anarchists insist that the idea of voluntarilly existent private property is utterly inconceivable.

Anarchists who followed Godwin usually treat Anarchism as an attempt to abolish private property or hierarchy, or both. And that the abolition of the State is ancillary. "Left Libertarians" will vary in the degree that they view the abolition of 'private property' and 'oligarchical heirarchy' as being paramount.

Some Anarchists hate the free market so much because of it's implicit assumption of private property and voluntary exchange that they will adopt pro-state positions simply to attack the free market. This is particularly profound with the followers of Chompsky. One Anarcho-Syndicalist hated the free market so much that he was willing to defend the military industrial complex just to 'prove' that the free market wouldn't be capable of advancing civilization's computer technology.

When an anarchist of this kind finally realizes that the abolition of private property cannot occur in a stateless society; they become a communist. The use traditionally conservative means [The state] To achieve leftist ends. This kind of approach is bizarre, reactionary, and utterly disastrous whenever applied.

"Anarcho-Capitalism" as originating with Molinari and developed by Hoppe and Rothbard, is, in a sense, not Anarchism, in that it doesn't attempt to abolish private property. But if the abolition of private property is a necessary attribute of Anarchism, then one would also have to agree that Bakunin, Spooner, and Thoreau were also not Anarchists either.

This is why many Rothbard seldom used the word Anarchy to describe his beliefs. (He usually described the government as being Anarchic in nature).

Now, with respect to the idealism of 'Anarcho Capitalism', let me say a few things.

1) Rothbard Deals Explicitly with scenarios pertaining to private Tyrannies. Never does he assume that abolishing the state would result in a perfect society, or that it would change human nature in the slightest.

2) "Statism" is idealistic in it's own sense. It assumes "Oh if only the right people were in power government rule would be functional." Ignoring the fact that no system of governance can distill any civic virtues or virtuous people. And that the more powerful the government, the less likely "Greedy" People will find their way into government instead of business.

And people who think that Democracy is capable of bringing these leaders into government has no right to call anyone else idealistic. These people have their heads in the sand as far as i can tell; One need only look at the mainstream political class, and have a talk with the average voter to realize that people live in the absence of any effectual means to control the actions of their leaders.

Relying on the "Market" assumes that people will act selfishly and to their own ends. This is NOT idealistic, this is as realistic as it gets. And if it just so happens that many people AREN'T selfish, then that's just as good.

Relying on the "State" Assumes that the State is a Dues Ex Machina motivated by benevolence and managed by "The will of the People". This assumption is as idealistic as it gets. And notions of "The Will of the People" are revealed to be mystical and unfounded when shown face with reality.

WAs the iraq War the "Will of the people"? What about the patriot act? Guantanamo? Government Debt? Vietnam? Obama's new healthcare Bill? The Stimulus? The Bailout

Stop calling yourself a realist when you throw your hands into the air and cry "The STATE will do it!" Every single time a problem arises you can't conceive a solution for.


On a moving train there are no centrists, only radicals and reactionaries.

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-19 00:06:12


One, no one needs the Army. Other people's problems should only be Marines' problems. Army's SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) just screw things up (as well as their crappy training and lack of commitment). Two, yes, science is great and we wouldn't be here without the breakthroughs throughout the last 100 years. However, what are breakthroughs these days? A razor blade that can leave you with the "closest shave- everytime"? New phones that can connect you to the internet anywhere and anytime and twice as good as a laptop that came out the previous year? HDTV? Where's the cure for AIDS, elevators to the moon, and flying cars? As contradicting as it sounds, until we see a car wizz above are heads, science facilities will have to ration up a budget to buy that chimp. Afterall, success comes from desperation. Lastly, for your neighbor (that loose cannon, him), buy a bigger gun and use the method of intimidation. If that doesn't work, well I hope you aren't a lousy shot.
Creature1stClass

Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-19 00:56:00


At 8/19/09 12:06 AM, C1C wrote: One, no one needs the Army. Other people's problems should only be Marines' problems. Army's SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) just screw things up (as well as their crappy training and lack of commitment).

What difference does it make? Their all tough guys with bang sticks. Why not give the standard Army Marine Level training?

Two, yes, science is great and we wouldn't be here without the breakthroughs throughout the last 100 years. However, what are breakthroughs these days? A razor blade that can leave you with the "closest shave- everytime"? New phones that can connect you to the internet anywhere and anytime and twice as good as a laptop that came out the previous year? HDTV? Where's the cure for AIDS, elevators to the moon, and flying cars? As contradicting as it sounds, until we see a car wizz above are heads, science facilities will have to ration up a budget to buy that chimp.

I love those ideas from an imaginative stand-point. But if you think about it realistically, alot of them would be pretty hard pressed to actually work.

Afterall, success comes from desperation. Lastly, for your neighbor (that loose cannon, him), buy a bigger gun and use the method of intimidation. If that doesn't work, well I hope you aren't a lousy shot

Well, how do we know the neighbor is a loose cannon? Intimidation should always be second. If we come one too strong, they'll think we want war. We need to be respectful. to communicate. Not threaten our way to success.


Render Unto Caesar

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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-19 06:24:41


At 8/18/09 07:34 PM, Kajio wrote: Hypothetical, my good man.

Parent Group: Hypothetical.
Subset: Straw-man.

People want competition, so competition will come about.
market is all about people's desires and needs.

The market is about supply and demand. The people's desires and needs comprise one half. And beyond that dichotomy, there's no guarantee that people will derive any compelling level of solidarity from their needs to prevent or stop others from taking advantage of a stateless system.

Generally, people only want competition once they're being screwed over by a monopolistic entity. It's called forsight - people lack it. Anarchy won't fix that.

Any system can be exploited, because any system places authority on something. The free market does not necessarily place authority on the consumer.

...you're aware 80% was a random number, right?

... yes?

If the product was meant for only people who supported slavery (or something) then that's either 1)Perfectly fine or 2)People would be willing to pay/volunteer to stop it.

You completely overlooked what I was saying about that 80%. At what point is the price cheap enough for each individual in the majority that slavery becomes a non-issue? Surely you believe most people have their price?

Only to the point that the market allows. If there isn't a demand for a huge, overbearing, controlling military, then people would not pay for it, and fight to stop extortion (probably by paying for other defence).

- Anarchy cannot survive in the modern world next to coercive governments without like infastructure. Or is the whole hypothetical world now anarchist?

- Monopolies aren't born monopolies. (forsight)

With some decent education, that's the ideal.

How witty!

Please don't do that.

Those wars are often religiously, or nationally motivated. The wars are sustainable because the people fighting are tricked into thinking its righteous.

Anarchy doesn't fix that.

The fact remains that coercive military forces function quite successfully in Africa, despite constant geurrilla warfair with, not only subjects, but other military forces.

Without magic governments to stand behind, this is more difficult for people to do.

Are you kidding me? Not having a nation doesn't make it harder to manufacture a cause. How about those magic religions?

People aren't generally willing to die... and even those who are willing to die for what is "right" don't want to fight for a company.

Unless the company advocates what they think is right, and provides them the resources to work towards that goal.

Those aren't monopolies. A few companies merging doesn't make the free market a monopoly spawning ground.

You've got a selective eye there.

Gaelic Ireland (650-1650)

This was always something I never understood about anarchy. How can any governing force not be compulsory?

Thanks to a free market?
Um... what? I'm not saying that the West was peaceful because of the free market, but it was peaceful, and didn't have a state. Stateless societies can function well, was the point.

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that we're getting alittle far from anarchocapitalism as a remedy to a mixed market.

Okay... Hunter-gatherer societies did work. You are aware of this, correct?

Alright sure.

They functioned well, and survived. If they didn't, we would not have been able to create civilization in the way we have...

Sneaky of you. Provide two conclusions, but only provide proof for one. Unless you're saying 'surviving' is all there is to functioning?

Hunter-gatherer societies also had no state. That's another example of people working together without the government putting them in their corners.

Yep. They had other things to keep them in their corners.


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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-19 06:55:30


At 8/18/09 03:56 PM, Kev-o wrote: For (seemingly) everyone here, every communist is a genocidal Marxist-Leninist, or they think anarchism/communism "works in theory, but not in practice" which is a rather stupid statement to make. If something works in theory, it's ridiculous to suggest in won't work in practice.

Haha NO ONE says "it works in theory".
NO ONE. Just about everyone here can point out 50 flaws in that system before you've even finished your sentence.


For those who see the word 'anarchy', or 'anarchist', or 'anarchism', and think it's some belief that there should be nothing, no organization, no order, I'd suggest you do some fucking research. Allow me to help:
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_arc hives/malatesta/anarchy.html
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_arc hives/kropotkin/britanniaanarchy.html
http://www.lucyparsonsproject.org/anarch ism/berkman_abc_of_anarchism.html
http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libcom .html

Anarchism in practice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_C atalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territ ory_(Ukraine)

It would be nice of most of you actually knew something about anarchism and communsm, before you came to your ill-informed, inaccurate conclusions. Like Bob Dylan said, "Don't criticise what you can't understand".
Also, the subject of this thread is ignorant in itself. Anarchism is not a national liberation movement, it's an internationalist worker liberation movement. However, anarchism does in fact work in practice.
At 8/18/09 04:39 PM, Kajio wrote:
There is a demand for goods/services to be made morally.

Haha no.
Plus, how the fuck would you know? With no government, that means no laws to tell me how you make your product. You might as well tell me it's made by expert craftsmen when in fact it's made by Chinese kids chained to a table in a shop basement.

If there wasn't why does the government enforce this anyway?

The government doesn't enforce moral things, it enforces efficient things and laws that make society work.
Wether something is moral or not is absolutely irrelevant and impossibly to determine.

So, you honestly would not want slavery removed?

The sugar you're buying RIGHT NOW is sometimes made with what could be considered slave labor.
You're ignorant of the fact.

You would NEVER KNOW. Ever. And if you found out? You wouldn't give a shit.
How do I know? You're not even going to look up my sugar claim. Right now you're living in something you claim you'd desperately avoid, i.e. with slave-made goods, AND YOU DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO EVEN LOOK IT UP.

Prove me wrong.

I'll let Bacc handle the rest.
Suffice to say that just about every "anarchocapitalist" is usually not nearly as clever as they think they are.


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Response to Anarchy in the U.S. 2009-08-19 12:08:48


At 8/19/09 06:55 AM, poxpower wrote:
At 8/18/09 03:56 PM, Kev-o wrote: For (seemingly) everyone here, every communist is a genocidal Marxist-Leninist, or they think anarchism/communism "works in theory, but not in practice" which is a rather stupid statement to make. If something works in theory, it's ridiculous to suggest in won't work in practice.
Haha NO ONE says "it works in theory".
NO ONE. Just about everyone here can point out 50 flaws in that system before you've even finished your sentence.

1. all people are not equal
2. the people in power during the transition keeps the power (thus going corrupt)
3. Regulating needs and wants
4. need and wants of the people can go corrupt (IE like soivet russia and rations)
5. how will they keep laws in place
6. how people will be motivated to work and just leech off the system.
7. how to produce utillites (Ex water elecricity)
8. maintaing infrastructure
9. how the anarchic society will not fail from invasion or outside threats
10. how the anarchic society will not fail from Internal politics

I could go on and on.