There's a lack of threads on this forum on the topic of abortion. I personally think most people's opinions when it comes to this issue are really, really stupid.
What is your opinion on abortion? I am pro choice for reasons I will discuss later in this thread, but first I wanna hear what you guys have to say before I start absolutely tearing apart pro lifers.
At 1/28/17 07:23 PM, TylerFromTexas wrote: I'm generally on the fence about abortion, but I lean pro-choice due to complications that may arise should abortion become illegal.
...like women having to use coathangers in an alleyway to abort their fetuses, putting their health and lives at risk because it can't be done by a professional doctor and regulated?
At 1/28/17 07:44 PM, TylerFromTexas wrote: That's the gist of it.
And also the idea that making abortion illegal doesn't protect women that were raped?
At 1/28/17 07:53 PM, TylerFromTexas wrote: What I'm saying is there is, I believe, an argument for banning abortion, but the pros to keep abortion legal outweighs the cons. You don't have to keep bringing up points about how women will go to the back alley for coat hanger abortions if it's illegal and such, as I used "complications" as a blanketed term for reasons why it shouldn't be banned. Sorry I wasn't specific enough in why I lean pro-choice, but it's usually the same answer as everyone else who is pro-choice.
It's totally cool, I mainly made this thread for my own rants. So I'm just using what you said to spit out as many points as I could. But the fact that you understand that the pros of legal abortion outweighs the cons is spot on and it's something that a lot of people don't seem to understand.
Pro-choice.
It's the inside of a woman's body, and frankly for the majority of the childbirth time, the baby is little more than an amalgam of cells with potential. I personally think it's shit that the woman gets stuck with all this due to mere biological luck. The man can shower the world with his seed and run off like he'd just taken a smoke break, but the woman, equally responsible in the conception part, getss saddled with the pregnancy and the baby.
I get the life portion of the pro-life, but so much of the rhetoric seems to go against that. Two ways: for one, "pro-life" views generally tend to come with other very harsh views toward post-natal life, as if once that fucker is born it's on its own. "glad you were birth, good fucking luck." Second, the movement tends to be more about sexual repression than helping the baby, and more specifically sexual repression of women. Whereas Planned Parenthood gives out a shit ton of abooirtion preventing educaion and contraceptives, Pro-life groups are more like, "bitch shoulda thought twice about fucking, dumb woman." If pro-life groups shared more of their politicals views helping those who are actually born sustain life and productive life, as well as actually preenting abortion instead of browbeating pregnant women, I might give them the "reasonable minds may differ" tag. But alas, like the pro MJ lagalization crowd, the arguments put forward are such shit you can't even get to any substance.
At 1/28/17 10:37 PM, sjwgenocide wrote: i think abortion is an unfortunate thing to have to do but even the gosh darn bible makes references to contraception and magic potions that induce miscarriages in women. it's very hard to change a pro-lifer's mind because to them abortion is the casual murder of tons of human beings and you can't really frame abortion in a positive light because it is kinda awful.
It doesn't really bother me. Most pro lifers call pro choicers evil, cruel and without a soul and then they go home at the end of the day and eat a plate of chicken or beef then swear that one is murder and the other isn't. Point is that everyone can argue forever about when life starts but the truth is nobody knows, and in the process you'd just be forcing a woman to have an unwanted child which may cause the woman to have to drop out of school and live in poverty along with the child, leading to 2 ruined lives and a worse off economy. People will act all high and mighty that they are standing up for morality, but we all know that if an unfortunate situation happened to them where a contraceptive didn't work and they accidentally knocked up a chick, they wouldn't hesitate to all of a sudden be for abortion so that they can avoid paying child care, because people don't give a shit until it happens to them.
At 1/29/17 12:02 PM, D3KU wrote: Im about the same. But really my personal thoughts here, shouldn't women be more responsible with sex?
I think because of this they should suck it up and live with it or use a coat hanger.
Yeesh. Took less than 5 posts... Damn, I love being proven right.
At 1/29/17 02:06 PM, sjwgenocide wrote: well you have to concede that it bothers other people, otherwise you can't even begin to convince people to change their minds. you've basically just been attacking the idea of pro-lifers ITT (which is fine, i use these forums as a soapbox for my own bullshit all the time), but the thing is that these people exist and there are a lot of them, so if you want to enact any sort of change you have to understand why they think the way they do instead of just shitting on the way they think.
Maybe so, but I figured I could get away with it this time on this forum if it involved being liberally biased. I've come to realize that it's literally impossible to change someone's mind in politics because instead of having an open mind and learning both sides of an issue they like to get angry and attack people that have a differing viewpoint. That being said, pro lifers pretty much have autism and that's a fact.
At 1/29/17 12:02 PM, D3KU wrote: Im about the same. But really my personal thoughts here, shouldn't women be more responsible with sex? If they aren't looking to have a kid and are planning to abort then they should really keep their legs closed. They think that they are entitled through their irresponsibility to receive a abortion and end a unborn person life. I think because of this they should suck it up and live with it or use a coat hanger.
This type of thinking is what's gonna make our nation more sexually repressed. People make mistakes and to force someone's life to be ruined over it when there's a clear and obvious solution to preventing that is retarded. I bet you eat eggs and meat and you don't think of it the same way.
At 1/29/17 03:55 PM, D3KU wrote: If you don't take the time to read this and/or care about the opinions of others then you really shouldn't be posting politics buddy. :)
To be fair, I post here all the time and half the time I haven't a clue what the fuck I'm talking about but everything I say pisses people off so I do get some amusement out of it. But like I said, caring about the opinions of others does nothing in the hostile world of politics. So I rest my case, your posts revolve around "you're shit outta luck" if a chick gets knocked up by accident while ignoring the dangers of women using coathangers when in reality I strongly feel that we should be aborting fetuses for comedic purposes
At 1/28/17 07:23 PM, TylerFromTexas wrote: There is actually a thread on abortion that goes on for several pages, but no one recently has been posting on it.
Mmm hmm, not to be disrespectful or simplistic about the issue or the folks who are passionate on both sides but, there isn't a whole lot of need to do multiple threads about it. That's why it had been condensed into one and normally I'd redirect and ask you folks to head on over there but I'm not going to in this case. I think this is active, folks are talking about it, so as long as everybody is able to behave, don't break rules, and it doesn't lead to a whole new spate of copycat threads. Have at it.
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One of the biggest arguments that pro-lifers make is the whole "sanctity of life" despite the fact that the child isn't technically alive until it comes out of the womb. Furthermore, I can't really seem to understand why would they even bother with such a thing, other than the need to baptize more babies or something. Personal responsibility is one thing, but even then, there is a whole bunch of factors that go into a pregnancy that pro-lifers either don't get or simply refuse to get.
TBH, I don't really get too involved with the abortion debate because it really seems kind of obvious which side makes sense, but I also don't really read up on it that much either.
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At 1/29/17 05:09 PM, D3KU wrote: Pres Trump will surely make America pro-life once again!
Highly doubt it, he doesn't give 2 flying fucks about this issue. In fact, he was always pro choice until he starting running for President which gets me to believe he switched just to win. He doesn't like getting asked questions about abortion because he doesn't care, the most he'll do is appoint a conservative Supreme Court justice to replace Antonin Scalia, who might make an effort to overturn Roe v. Wade. But as long as Pence isn't the President I don't see anything with that changing.
At 1/29/17 05:49 PM, D3KU wrote:At 1/29/17 05:42 PM, EdyKel wrote:I don't think that this is entirely true, surely he faces pressure from other members of the political party anyway.At 1/29/17 05:26 PM, D3KU wrote:As mothballs balls put it, Trump doesn't give a shit about abortions. He's more interested in cutting money to government programs to save money for his wall, and to his special interests (namely him).
Republicans had a chance to get rid of it during the Bush years, as they controlled all three branches of government then. I'm sure this conversation about it being banned came up then as well, but we all know it just ended up being talk and no action. It's like the carrot and the donkey. They hold the issue in front of you and you'll follow where they lead you, but at the end you'll never get it, because they'll have to use it tomorrow on you, again, and again, and again, and again....
At 1/29/17 06:57 PM, D3KU wrote:At 1/29/17 06:13 PM, EdyKel wrote:We'll see.
It's all a con's man game.
Even if Trump could get another Antonia Scalia on the Supreme Court - which is going to be tough, given the fierce opposition by Dems, who were furious at what Republicans did with Obama's pick, Merrick Garland, where they saw precedence in not confirming a supreme court justice for a year or longer, will try to do the same thing - Justice Roberts will side with pro choice on any abortion case that tries to ban abortion.
Ooo, the topic of abortion! Always a great way to get BOTH sides to hate me! :D
Pro-life is where I technically stand, with the caveat that pro-choice people are right about almost every counterpoint, and that the current pro-life movement is REALLY fucking up their chances for a solition that'll last longer than this presidency cycle. If you want to end abortion, you have to address the issues that cause people to have them. If you don't, people will have them whether or not you make it legal, and those that can't afford it will simply... well, suffer. If you want to rid the country of the barbaric act, take some fucking responsibility and alleviate the suffering and problems of the woman being put into the situation they can't get out of. Legislate it away without removing the needs will ALWAYS be a temporary victory, with women and men fighting to have it reinstated eventually (with ~70% of people wanting it in SOME form or another, it WILL come back).
Women forced to make a choice between career and child rearing? Support Maternal and Paternal leave, and create funding for public child care options. People wanted to prevent it, but didn't have access to the means? Provide free contraceptives - these are NOT abortifecients, folks, you are simply ignorant if you use that as an excuse. Women say they don't want to suffer in childbirth? Tricky, but funding research toward alleviating this pain with little risk would be a good start. How about rapists using the child as leverage (which is legal in many states)? Christ, take those rights away, man, that shouldn't even be up for debate. Oh, and don't you DARE tell anyone that adoption is an option until you, y'know, make adoption a viable option: incentive packages and such really should be implimented so more people make the adoptee's life bearable. Yeah, ripe for abuse by money grubbing asses, but it's not something that's normally discussed, so hey - I haven't thought of a better solution, yet.
You want to end the killing of innocents? Work for it, be willing to sacrifice your tax dollars and secure job positions (to upcoming women who have this newfound workplace freedom) for it. Otherwise, you're full of hot air, and should not be taken seriously.
But yes, despite ALL of that, the only thing pro-choice people have that separates them from "Stopping a pregnancy" and "ending a life" is wordplay and defining life so the act is inconveniently outside of abortion. That never sat well with me; I still don't condone it, and would rather see a world where it didn't need to exist. I feel the pro-choice people aren't wrong in their reasons, but they ARE wrong in their solution: at best, abortion should be a stopgap while we fix these things that make it necessary, not something to celebrate and push for, not the end in itself.
So yeah; abortion is terrible, and the pro-life movement is stupidly barrelling at measures that will never stop it since they're just ignoring the needs of women in the process. Considering my position is... well, not common, I'll probably never live to see the day people try to act toward my views, but hey, I'm a hopeful kind of guy.
Edit: Almost forgot! If you're a person who feels women should "just be responsible" for sex, then you can go fuck yourself! You never cared about the life of the unborn; you only care about punishing women for having sex. So yeah, you don't have any place in this conversation.
Yeah, go fuck yourself, and let the people who actually care about unborn life take the wheels. You are a cancer in the pro-life movement who is making it into a anti-women movement. Can't leave you guys out, after all!
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I'm glad that this thread is actually full of intelligent conversation. I've become so sick of people on Facebook doing the exact opposite and whining.
Anyways, I'm pro choice. Although, if a woman is going to choose to have an abortion, I believe it should be done ASAP. The less a fetus is able to grow, the better. I feel if an abortion is done when the fetus has a heartbeat that it kind of is murder, but abortion just cannot be illegal.
I just think of if abortion was illegal how many raped women who become pregnant could not get an abortion, how women financially incapable of taking care of a child could not get an abortion, and how many women would seek illegal abortions by nonprofessionals or try to do it themselves and put both her life and the fetus' life at risk. With the financially incapable part, yes, people can argue that the man and woman should've taken better precautions before having sex, but condoms break, birth control can fail, etc. It's better for women financially incapable of raising a child to be able to get an abortion because at least they won't be bringing more unwanted people into this world.
With that last sentence, that's where so many pro lifers get on my nerves. They just can't seem to grasp that bringing unwanted children into the world is a bad thing. There's already too many unwanted children, so why would you want more to be brought into the world? Plus, so many of them will preach about a fetus' potential life and how much it matters, but won't think about that child's life ever again once it's born. They only give a shit about a child's life if it's unborn and then it's basically 'lol not my problem'. That's why so many pro lifers get on my nerves.
Also, just because those people don't like abortion doesn't mean that they should be trying to take a woman's right away. It could not be their business at all whether a woman has an abortion or not, but pro lifers cross the line and point their fingers and scold the women who have had abortions and want women who are pregnant to feel that they don't have a choice. I know that everyone here in America has freedom of speech, but there are so many problems that could be avoided by people just minding their own business and not getting so riled up about things that don't effect them personally. In a way, all of this abortion stance talk is starting to kind of sound like gay rights all over again.
It's all shits and giggles until someone giggles and shits.
At 1/30/17 08:19 AM, OakDomino wrote: Pretty much; if you're going to have sex there is a risk of you having a child, That's the point. Just because you didn't acknowledge that risk doesn't mean people have to pay to have your child murdered. If you don't want to risk having a child, then don't have sex. This is common sense.
Oh fuck you. You're one of the reasons for all of the sexual repression in the world and now you're going to try and impose that on our more sexually liberated culture which I consider myself privileged to have grown up in. If you wanna preach all this abstinence bullshit you'd be better off doing so in a Church or something, but human beings simply cannot avoid having recreational sex. If I don't shove my cock in pussy meat for months I lose my fuckin mind and my health suffers.
Another big issue I have with abortion is the fact that the father has no real say in the matter considering it's his child that is being killed too, kind of fucked up.
Alright, I kind of agree with this. Most of the stuff regarding this is left up to the states, and where I live women have all the say in the matter. I really hate that pro choice argument of "a woman's right to choose". That's the way of appealing to all those raging feminists that could care less about what the woman is actually choosing to do and more about the idea of granting them the rights to do whatever they want while leaving the guy out of it.
Pro-choice. I sympathize with those against abortion for not wanting murder but we cannot strip a woman's right to her own body, especially using legislation overwhelmingly initiated by men, who have no perspective on housing an embryo/fetus. I also suspect that there is also a religious motivation behind a lot of it, which is an unacceptable justification.
At 1/30/17 08:19 AM, OakDomino wrote:At 1/29/17 12:02 PM, D3KU wrote: shouldn't women be more responsible with sex?Pretty much; if you're going to have sex there is a risk of you having a child, That's the point. Just because you didn't acknowledge that risk doesn't mean people have to pay to have your child murdered. If you don't want to risk having a child, then don't have sex. This is common sense.
Another big issue I have with abortion is the fact that the father has no real say in the matter considering it's his child that is being killed too, kind of fucked up.
Oh, great. I'm assuming you're a fan of abstinence, too? Lay blame at the feet of women for a temptation that 99% of the fucking adult population gives into.
The father doesn't know that child, he can have children til the day he dies or he can find someone who will give him children in the same or another relationship. Part of the oppression women face in a pro-life world is that if the father has a say, then the father literally has all the say and defines the relationship. Where does a woman go for support when she has a child? She has no choice.
I hope you're happy paying taxes for of all the mothers and fathers you put on welfare rolls, then.
At 1/30/17 05:31 PM, D3KU wrote:
Not saying they shouldn't have sexy sex. I'm saying that if they do they best be ready to carry it out to the end of the pregnancy and take responsibility. Whether they put the kid up for adoption or not, I don't care. A life is a life.(Although under certain circumstances would I say yea its ok to have one.)
"Should carry out the pregnancy" is a far cry "legally mandated to carry out the pregnancy."
At 1/30/17 05:31 PM, D3KU wrote:
Not saying they shouldn't have sexy sex.
Yes you are, chucklefuck! You are saying unless they want babies they shouldn't have any sex, unless you're 120% pro-contraception (which I'm guessing you aren't, as this "women should live with the results" argument normally applies specifically to the whole anti-contraceptive movement - punishment over prevention, and all that).
I'm saying that if they do they best be ready to carry it out to the end of the pregnancy and take responsibility.
Outside of the "fetus is a life" argument (which this side of the pro-life movement REALLY gives no shit about, as you show later), why? Men are 50% responsible for this, do why not have them be equally responsible?
Oh, before you butt in with "Yeah, men should be forced to raise it, too!", having fathers "take care of" the child is not the same as having the mother take care of it, as the father has the benefit of being expected to leave the child in the mother's care. Fathers do not lose opportunities in life when they have a child, whereas mothers do, as that's how society is designed, at the moment.
Give them access to contraception so they can have all the sex without pregnancy they want - why the fuck should you DESIRE complicating sex with pregnancy if you don't need to?
Whether they put the kid up for adoption or not, I don't care.
You don't care because you're a miserable person. Who the fuck says "I don't give a shit about the well being of children" when discussing how important they are? This is an absurd statement. Again, you're a cancer unleashed upon the pro-life movement - you are the reason I can't look people in the eyes and say "I'm pro-life" without them spitting their disgust at me.
A life is a life.(Although under certain circumstances would I say yea its ok to have one.)
No, a life is something to punish women with for having sex, based on your earlier comment - this fall back is a platitude that you haven't a clue what it means. When you introduce the concept of "punishment" and "consequence", you're handling a life as a tool to punish another with, not as something that should have rights or live long enough to appreciate them.
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At 1/30/17 09:19 PM, OakDomino wrote:At 1/30/17 05:17 PM, EKublai wrote:Oh no I blame both the woman and the man, as I said they knew a child could come of this and that's the risk they take by having intercourse. Not saying they don't have a right to have sex, or that it's a bad thing but that's the risk they take and they have to take responsibility for their actions.At 1/30/17 08:19 AM, OakDomino wrote:Oh, great. I'm assuming you're a fan of abstinence, too? Lay blame at the feet of women for a temptation that 99% of the fucking adult population gives into.At 1/29/17 12:02 PM, D3KU wrote:
The father doesn't know that child, he can have children til the day he dies or he can find someone who will give him children in the same or another relationship. Part of the oppression women face in a pro-life world is that if the father has a say, then the father literally has all the say and defines the relationship. Where does a woman go for support when she has a child? She has no choice.
I hope you're happy paying taxes for of all the mothers and fathers you put on welfare rolls, then.
What do you mean the "father defines the relationship"? Just because he has a say in his wife killing his own child, he controls everything she does and has complete control over the relationship? Stop being ridiculous.
And who says they are not taking responsibility by responsibly deciding what is best for their relationship?
My question to you is What do you mean he has "a say"? Seems to me you are saying he has to give permission for an abortion, which means he is setting the boundaries not the woman. If she is prevented from having an abortion because of a husband/lover, her body is being controlled, and her relationship to the father is being controlled because it is harder given the fact most unwanted pregnancies happen to the uneducated and the poor that a woman has the financial means to raise a child by herself, particularly if the man is forcing her to have the baby because of "moral" principles against abortions rather than the idea that this baby will need a decent father one day. You know why the father wasn't present in the back alley? Because he was never present in the first place.
You can claim your moral superiority over humanity on this one but your comments of not caring what happens once a baby is born are very revealing.
At 1/30/17 08:19 AM, OakDomino wrote:At 1/29/17 12:02 PM, D3KU wrote: shouldn't women be more responsible with sex?
;;;
Actually shouldn't the man be more responsible ? There are way more men chasing woman than the other way around.
When was the last time on a nice day a good looking male walked by a group of females & they start cat calling & "hey baby is that a cucumber in your pants or are you happy to see us " type comments coming from them ?
change that scenario , to say a construction site , at lunch & a good looking female walks by ?
Another big issue I have with abortion is the fact that the father has no real say in the matter considering it's his child that is being killed too, kind of fucked up.
I would agree with you IF the man puts forward he wants the baby & the woman doesn't him & her work out an agreement its his, she walks away OR , a baby is born, DNA says its this mans, he is imprinted with the Tax Man & has to pay for that baby's upkeep & raising & that works for the mother as well, you guys created it you are on the hook for its up keep & rearing until age of maturity (isn't that 21 in the USA) SO you can abandon it, put it up for adoption ....or raise it, but no matter what ..... you pay.
Then maybe I would consider giving the man some say.
As I see it, as a man, I don't believe I or any other male should have the right to say what goes on with a females reproductive organs. This is something that should be 100% in the realm of females.
Just like a female(s) shouldn't have any say about a males.
As for the prolife movement, I consider it the anti woman movement & there is very little about life involved. How many day care centres does the Prolife movement presently operate ?
Do they offer financial help to single mothers, are there mental help centres staffed by Prolife movement people to help woman & children with ...YA KNOW L I F E & the many problems of it !!!
Let me close by saying the first time I heard an a Prolife person murdering doctor/employee of an abortion clinic, my belief any of them have any relevance went right out the window & my view changed to the one , where they aren't actually about Life, they just want control of women & their views are so much more important they see that taking a life is THEIR right to protect another ...... are you fucking kidding !?!.
Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More
I'm pro-choice. i want my taxpayer dollar to pay for abortions and birth control. It's MUCH cheaper than providing financial assistance for children whose parents can't afford to feed and clothe them.
Joking aside, there is nothing irresponsible about a woman and a man deciding that they're not yet prepared to bring a child into this world. Contraceptive methods are very effective, but don't always work. If my partner and I found ourselves in a similar situation, and we decide we aren't ready to have children, I'd want her to have access to safe and affordable health services.
And don't even tell me that adoption is an alternative to abortion, unless you want a lengthy tirade about why you're wrong.
At 2/1/17 01:42 PM, NekoMika wrote: Should be a woman's choice alone. If one does not have a vagina or is not the person who impregnated the woman (this is assuming the person never leaves her at all), they should HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER.
The thought that rich men are signing pieces of paper that give priority to an embryo over the body autonomy of women is an infuriating thought.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I reiterate my stance. I am pro choice but not because of a "woman's right to choose". Like I said, that's like saying a woman can choose to murder something just because it's in her body. In fact, most Democrats say that abortion should be legal because women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, and yet they're against prostitution. Isn't that the same exact thing? (Incoming: ppl trying to associate prostitution with human trafficking).
But the point is that I don't really give a shit if babies die, I myself would rather be aborted than brought into a life of poverty because my mother is single and poor and can't support me as an unwanted child. Again, societal and economic problems are associated.
At 1/30/17 07:29 PM, D3KU wrote: No, better then ending their fucking life. At least they got a change to live you little bitch, and you know what, I bet they would have been grateful to have a chance in life. I'm cancer you say? I'm cancer because I care for life? Who are you? Hitler?
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At 2/1/17 03:55 PM, mothballs wrote: I reiterate my stance. I am pro choice but not because of a "woman's right to choose". Like I said, that's like saying a woman can choose to murder something just because it's in her body. In fact, most Democrats say that abortion should be legal because women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, and yet they're against prostitution. Isn't that the same exact thing? (Incoming: ppl trying to associate prostitution with human trafficking).
that's akin to buying alcohol from a grocery store and marijuana from a shady drug dealer. but prostitution is certainly legal if there is a contractual agreement (i.e. pornography) or a 'donation' in exchange for sexual services made purely at the discretion of the provider. in some states the sex worker needs to obtain an escort license.
