1 song % of ad rev you ask for?

[HeroPower]

I have been learning to program since the start of the year....long journey so far haha With my first game I just paid for a royalty-free song. The game only made a few dollars across NG and other portals, so this time around I figured I would reach out to the community while I am still an amateur programmer.

How much (percentage) of the ad revenue would you guys charge for one of your songs here on NG? I'm not talking about having to do the work to score for the game. I am talking about using one of your existing songs already on NG.

Just curious what you guys have to say. I'm from a film background and in the film industry - composers usually are paid 1-3% of the films budget (whether it's independent or Hollywood status). I don't have a budget - just a simple guy trying to make simple Flash games. So I look forward to seeing your responses. I've been told by a few artists that I could use their work for free - to just give them credit - but I know most of you are probably not like that (or am I wrong?).

[Step]

You should always discuss it with the composer. Some people (including me) will usually let the other person use it for free, but a general percentage would usually be around 2 - 5% for an existing song and 5 - 10% for a custom-made song. However, technically, no matter how much money you make, if it's commercial you need to discuss an agreement with the composer.

[LunyAlex]

Flexibility is key.

Personally I don't have rates, but rather prefer to work out something that's fitting for the client in question, depending on their budget and what other expenses they'll be faced with for their project.

As general guidelines, though, the percentages given above sound good.

[HeroPower]

At 7/29/14 08:39 PM, Step wrote: You should always discuss it with the composer. Some people (including me) will usually let the other person use it for free, but a general percentage would usually be around 2 - 5% for an existing song and 5 - 10% for a custom-made song. However, technically, no matter how much money you make, if it's commercial you need to discuss an agreement with the composer.

Thank you for the reply. I will be messaging composers soon I just wanted an idea of the range before I started asking. Seems reasonable to me. And yes, commercially would definitely need to be under a signed agreement - but for a free, small flash game on the internet I don't think I have to worry about that as I believe NG split-revenue agreement is sufficient.

[Step]

At 7/29/14 09:12 PM, Hero101 wrote: Thank you for the reply. I will be messaging composers soon I just wanted an idea of the range before I started asking. Seems reasonable to me. And yes, commercially would definitely need to be under a signed agreement - but for a free, small flash game on the internet I don't think I have to worry about that as I believe NG split-revenue agreement is sufficient.

Actually I'm pretty sure that you still have to worry about it. There's nothing in the Newgrounds terms of use or the CC licence used by the Audio Portal which says that posting our music means that it may be eligible to be used in flash games commercially without our permission (by commercially I mean with the intent of making profit).

Newgrounds does indeed offer a revenue splitting system, but I believe it's intended to be used after an agreement on the revenue split is nailed with the composer. It may not seem like a big deal for a free flash game which might make just a few dollars of ad revenue, but what if you eventually make something really popular that gets thousands of dollars? Wouldn't a musician deserve a say in his/her cut of the profit in that case? Above all, it's common decency to inform a composer that you wish to use his/her music, even if it's for an entirely non-commercial purpose.

In any case, of all the times I've had my music used in movies/games on here, they've never asked for permission or decided a revenue split with me, and I've never minded too much, but you really never know so it's generally best to play on the safe side and discuss it with the composer first :).

[HeroPower]

Newgrounds does indeed offer a revenue splitting system, but I believe it's intended to be used after an agreement on the revenue split is nailed with the composer. It may not seem like a big deal for a free flash game which might make just a few dollars of ad revenue, but what if you eventually make something really popular that gets thousands of dollars? Wouldn't a musician deserve a say in his/her cut of the profit in that case? Above all, it's common decency to inform a composer that you wish to use his/her music, even if it's for an entirely non-commercial purpose.

In any case, of all the times I've had my music used in movies/games on here, they've never asked for permission or decided a revenue split with me, and I've never minded too much, but you really never know so it's generally best to play on the safe side and discuss it with the composer first :).

Wow can't believe people actually use your stuff without even asking - that's just wrong haha I see your point about newgrounds agreement and how before using their revenue split that an agreement should be made with the musician. Makes total sense :)

However, if a composer wanted say 5% of the revenue share but wanted it increased to 10% after it hit the $1000 mark (just an example) I would probably find another composer. I'd rather find a composer that gave me a flat rate. That's just me though. However, if it was a Flash game that was available through download (pay for game) or if it was a mobile game (imagine Flappy Bird scenario) then I could understand them wanting an increase in profits should it hit a certain benchmark. Then again, if it was just a song that they didn't create for the game (was an old song) I don't think I would be down for anything other than a flat rate. If they actually composed a song just for the game, or scored multiple songs for the entire game, then I would totally be down for such an agreement. Again, this is just my opinion.

All in all, I think we can agree that the business side of things is just plain not fun haha I want to spend all my time/energy learning better code/making new games as I'm sure you want to spend all your efforts making new and better music :)

[MetalRenard]

At 7/29/14 09:33 PM, Step wrote: In any case, of all the times I've had my music used in movies/games on here, they've never asked for permission or decided a revenue split with me, and I've never minded too much, but you really never know so it's generally best to play on the safe side and discuss it with the composer first :).

And Step is one of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to this, so be wary. I'd kick someone's arse if they did this without asking me first and used something I made for profit.

[HeroPower]

And Step is one of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to this, so be wary. I'd kick someone's arse if they did this without asking me first and used something I made for profit.

Ha no worries man I am with you on this one.

[Sundans]

As Step said, it is all dependent on the client in question. The composer certainly deserves money for their work -- considering the fact that, in the art industry, promotion as payment is about as useful as a one-armed trapeze artist with an itchy ass. I am of the belief that it should be worked out individually via case-by-case basis.

View it like mastering. It's different for every track, so work it out and find what works.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

At 7/30/14 01:49 AM, MetalRenard wrote:

At 7/29/14 09:33 PM, Step wrote: In any case, of all the times I've had my music used in movies/games on here, they've never asked for permission or decided a revenue split with me, and I've never minded too much, but you really never know so it's generally best to play on the safe side and discuss it with the composer first :).

And Step is one of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to this, so be wary. I'd kick someone's arse if they did this without asking me first and used something I made for profit.

Yeah... that. I've had peoples youtube accounts deleted for using my work without my permission in a monetized video. If I found someone selling any kind of product with my music in it without my permission I'd take them for all they're worth, even if it costed me more than I'd get out of it.

People won't learn to respect artists copyrights and intellectual property unless there are consequences, and I'm more than willing to provide that if such a situation ever arises.

Not saying you'd do that OP... just ranting.

[HeroPower]

Not saying you'd do that OP... just ranting.

Haha I 100% get what you guys mean and you totally have the right to rant. Working in Flash it isn't very difficult to steal my game as Flash is very unsecure. At least if they put it on their site I still get ad revenue, but it causes me to also have to put my name and a link back to me in every project since this could happen.

Now if I were selling a game for PC release, I don't know how upset I would be about my game getting pirated. Don't get me wrong - I know I would be upset, I just don't know HOW much it would bother me.

As musicians, how do you guys feel about piracy? I know it bothers the vast majority, then there are those few that believe music is meant to be shared, and then there are those pirates that claim they will buy the album/game if it is good - that they just pirated it first to make sure it was worth there money.

Maybe that last question is going off topic for this post, but I just thought it would be interesting to hear what you fellow musicians thought about it.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

At 7/30/14 03:04 AM, Hero101 wrote: As musicians, how do you guys feel about piracy? I know it bothers the vast majority, then there are those few that believe music is meant to be shared, and then there are those pirates that claim they will buy the album/game if it is good - that they just pirated it first to make sure it was worth there money.

Maybe that last question is going off topic for this post, but I just thought it would be interesting to hear what you fellow musicians thought about it.

As far as music is concerned, I have a really big problem with piracy against independent artists, because if they're trying to make a career out of it, you are quite literally taking their food and shelter away by pirating their music instead of helping support an up and coming artist.

Pirating music from someone like Metallica or "Fiddy Cent" however... Who gives a shit... Boo hoo, they won't be able to buy another solid gold toilet. The more money you have, the less sympathy I'll have for them when they say people pirate their music.

TL;DR:
Piracy from a starving artist that drives a cardboard box to work = You're a douche and you should die a horrible painful death.
Piracy from an artist that has multiple millions/billions of dollars in the bank = Still not really ok... but I don't give two shits if they're denied another Limited Edition Rolls Royce.

[samulis]

If it's a team of 3 or so (including you) working on the game or anim. and the music is original, between 7 and 15 pieces, pay the composer like tipping a waiter at a restaurant, especially if the game is not hugely popular. With one song? Probably 5-10% will suffice. However, chances are you'll only get like $40-100 total from ad rev with a decent game (a 340k ad impressions game I did music for two years ago only made $50). Even selling your game or getting a sponsorship won't get you a ton anymore unless you are a well known flash studio or the game is very well made.

As you probably well know from working in the film industry, the going rate for a professional composer is between $1k and $3k per minute, if not more (the going rate for an intermediate to semi pro flash/mobile game composer seems to be between $30 and $500 per minute). You can probably see the problem already. This is why many composers suggest either a lump sum payment or a mix of rev share and up front payment, as paying with ad rev is almost always a bad deal.

What I recommend for using a preexisting piece from NG is, instead of ad rev, you arrange to pay the composer a lump sum licencing fee to get him/her to waive the non-commercial requirement of the CC license for you. I have done this with a number of individuals who have wanted to use one track or another of mine. The cost can range between $10 to $25 per track in most cases, and most composers are more than willing to negotiate for a tight budget (some will even do it for free or a very low price if you are polite and the game doesn't look like a big one).

[HeroPower]

If it's a team of 3 or so (including you) working on the game or anim. and the music is original, between 7 and 15 pieces, pay the composer like tipping a waiter at a restaurant, especially if the game is not hugely popular. With one song? Probably 5-10% will suffice. However, chances are you'll only get like $40-100 total from ad rev with a decent game (a 340k ad impressions game I did music for two years ago only made $50). Even selling your game or getting a sponsorship won't get you a ton anymore unless you are a well known flash studio or the game is very well made.

What I recommend for using a preexisting piece from NG is, instead of ad rev, you arrange to pay the composer a lump sum licencing fee to get him/her to waive the non-commercial requirement of the CC license for you. I have done this with a number of individuals who have wanted to use one track or another of mine. The cost can range between $10 to $25 per track in most cases, and most composers are more than willing to negotiate for a tight budget (some will even do it for free or a very low price if you are polite and the game doesn't look like a big one).

Thank you for all of your input. I can totally see where you guys are coming from. Right now it is just a team of 1 - just me haha and my games are so incredibly small - more like tech demos really - because I have only started learning to program since the beginning of the year. So every time I am trying to learn some new complex code, I make a small game to practice/learn the new code. Was told by a lot of programmers that it's better to make a lot of little games along the way rather than just learn lots of code before attempting to make a game as you'll learn more things this way. From my experience so far I have to say this is true. So my games will not go far at this point in my game making career haha That's awesome you were a part of a game with 340k ad impressions.

At this point with my current skill set, I can only dream of achieving that. So while my small, simple games could probably forgo music at this point, I still want to try and make them as best as I can so I would like music for them. With my first game I actually paid for royalty-free music that had an unlimited license (I can't remember proper license name at the moment - it allowed me to use the song on as many projects as I wanted to rather than a single project use). It was a great 2-minute medieval style loop song that I paid $17. Given it was my first game, and everything I told you about my current status as a game developer above, you can probably guess I didn't make enough money off the game to cover the song. I guess that is why I was looking to split ad rev, but after reading your reply I can see why this is the very reason composers prefer a payment over ad revenue. I am capable of scoring the game myself - but I would much rather spend that time working on learning to program.... decisions...decisions...

Again, thank you for all of your input as well as everyone else that replied to my post. I will have to start searching for music that fits my game and then start making contact with composers.

[HeroPower]

At 8/1/14 05:18 AM, hektikmusic wrote: Sadly I've noticed a lot of game/movie uploaders only list the musician ingame and not naming the track on here thus not giving the musican their fair share, or any share in fact, of ad revenue. It's offensive to say the least :(

I guess that's an issue that arises when the site is full of teens or younger. Well, they could just be a**holes for doing it as well. Should be a warning/ban system in place for what you explained.