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Victory for Democracy in Ukraine?

18,677 Views | 243 Replies

Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-24 02:58:51


So it seems President Yanukovich is no more. The pro-Russian ex-president is out of power and now Ukraine can begin its transition towards the EU.

I am happy that the Ukrainian people have spoken up against Russia's influence and are moving towards the West. Just another blow against Russia and Putin is a-ok with me.

But is this revolution helpful to Ukraine's democratic government? It's really iffy, in my opinion.

Viktor Yanukovich, whether you like him or hate him, was democratically elected in what was deemed by the
EU to be a fair election. So Yanukovich was not exactly a dictator.

But he went against the will of the people, right? Well, turns out that Ukraine is a divided country; the western half of the country is pro-EU, while the Russophone eastern half of the country supports Yanukovich, and that there were actually some protests against his ouster.

But he committed acts of treason against the people, right? Well...nope. Nixing a pro-EU agreement you may have liked does not count as treason. You can protest against it, you can contact the opposition leaders against it, you can vote against it come election day, but violent revolts are not beneficial to the democratic process.

Choosing your leader is an essential part of democracy, but living with the leader chosen, even if you don't like him, is just as essential. Trying to overthrow a democratically elected president because you don't like him is a disservice to democracy and it undermines the stability of your system. Let's say that the new president pushes through that EU bill, but in a few short years the economy still isn't roaring. Do you overthrow him, then?

Revolutions are incredibly shortsighted, even when they try to be democratic. Yes, I'm glad that Ukraine will move more towards the democratic West than the fake-democratic Russia. But revolutions like these set a dangerous precedent. They give the new president an unofficial ultimatum: fix everything in a few years, or be removed. It's the same thing that happened to Morsi in Egypt. This is self-defeating, since the nature of a democratic leader is that they do not have enough power to fix everything in a few years (because to do that they'd need near unlimited power.)

Ultimately, I hope that if Ukraine does join the EU, it'll be a huge boost to its economy. Because I don't know if its government can survive another Euromaidan.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-24 22:48:20


I'm still wondering why people care. This shit happens ever other year not just in Ukraine but somewhere in Eastern Europe. Just last year around this time the Prime Minister of Bulgaria resigned after similar circumstances (in Bersculoni fashion he ran again in the election he had prompted by his own resignation; and still came out in first ), hell even at the same time there is massive rioting in the Croatian-Bosniak part of Bosnia with several buildings being burned down.

Otherwise I would rather have Ukraine go to Russia so they could integrate their cultures more because there's too much fragmentation with every other country in Eastern Europe breaking off because they have one or two different words in their language and don't like the country they're a part of.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.

" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-25 08:55:01


Overthrowing a democratic government might make the country unstable temporarily, but i dont think we can point fingers at Ukraine and say that what they are doing is wrong. Im no expert in Ukrainian government, but their prime minister pretty much hasn't done anything to change the situation there for the better. I think the only part of his job that he likes is the wage. it doesn't matter if his election was fair or corrupt, if the people feel that their leaders are so bad, that waiting for them to sit through is not an option, then "overthrowing them" seems perfectly sound to me.


"I don't care if I fall as long as someone else picks up my gun and keeps on shooting." - Che Guevara

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-25 10:31:06


At 2/25/14 08:55 AM, mojolot wrote: Overthrowing a democratic government might make the country unstable temporarily, but i dont think we can point fingers at Ukraine and say that what they are doing is wrong. Im no expert in Ukrainian government, but their prime minister pretty much hasn't done anything to change the situation there for the better. I think the only part of his job that he likes is the wage. it doesn't matter if his election was fair or corrupt, if the people feel that their leaders are so bad, that waiting for them to sit through is not an option, then "overthrowing them" seems perfectly sound to me.

But that undermines the stability of a country. Can you imagine if there were mass protests and riots when David Cameron took office? Or what if we had violently staged a coup against Herbert Hoover? Democratic leaders cannot fix things quickly because giving them that ability they would need near unlimited power. That's the price you pay for freedom of expression and the franchise. If overthrowing your leader when times are bad is a viable option, then no government would ever survive any type of economic downturn.

It's easy to say that overthrowing a bad president is a good idea when you don't like him. What if you do? Let's say that you like Obama's job in office (for the sake of argument.) Would you want the Tea Party trying to impeach a president you think is doing a good job?

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 17:14:11


At 2/28/14 03:40 PM, lapis wrote: armed gunmen took over at least two airports in the Crimean peninsula.

No sources to your claims ?


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 19:32:42


At 2/28/14 05:14 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: No sources to your claims ?

Here's one.

Well this is different, this stuff happens alot and on top of that it's not just happening in Ukraine it also is still going in Bulgaria and Bosnia. But Russia downright landing troops? It appears Russia is serious about supporting its allies.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.

" - Barry Goldwater.

BBS Signature

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 20:09:19


At 2/28/14 07:32 PM, Warforger wrote:
At 2/28/14 05:14 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: No sources to your claims ?
Here's one.

Well this is different, this stuff happens alot and on top of that it's not just happening in Ukraine it also is still going in Bulgaria and Bosnia. But Russia downright landing troops? It appears Russia is serious about supporting its allies.

LOL ask's for sources to his claims . . . He posts a video about IMF support to Ukraine .


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 20:28:25


Do you really need a source for that? If you're paying any attention to the news, Russia has already confirmed that it sent troops to Crimea.


Just an 02er.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 20:38:31


At 2/28/14 08:28 PM, Profanity wrote: Do you really need a source for that? If you're paying any attention to the news, Russia has already confirmed that it sent troops to Crimea.

So what does a video about IMF support have to do with Russia sending troops ?


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 20:46:56


At 2/28/14 08:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 2/28/14 08:28 PM, Profanity wrote: Do you really need a source for that? If you're paying any attention to the news, Russia has already confirmed that it sent troops to Crimea.
So what does a video about IMF support have to do with Russia sending troops ?

What the fuck are you talking about? Russia just sent unmarked armed troops & helicopters to Crimea and took over airports, and then admitted responsibility.


Just an 02er.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 21:01:36


At 2/28/14 08:09 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: LOL ask's for sources to his claims . . . He posts a video about IMF support to Ukraine .

"Armed men seize two airports in Ukraine's Crimea, Yanukovich reappears"- THE FUCKING ARTICLE TITLE


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.

" - Barry Goldwater.

BBS Signature

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 21:31:48


At 2/28/14 09:01 PM, Warforger wrote:
At 2/28/14 08:09 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: LOL ask's for sources to his claims . . . He posts a video about IMF support to Ukraine .
"Armed men seize two airports in Ukraine's Crimea, Yanukovich reappears"- THE FUCKING ARTICLE TITLE

It was a link to a bloody video about IMF monetary support arrangements to Ukraine. What does that have to do with the title LOL.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 21:43:31


Let's play "Spot the Illiterati"


Just an 02er.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 22:12:43


At 2/28/14 09:31 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: It was a link to a bloody video about IMF monetary support arrangements to Ukraine. What does that have to do with the title LOL.

So you pretty much ignored the entire article then? Fine I'll copy and paste the very text from the link so you don't have to do the hard task of scrolling down.

"(Reuters) - Armed men took control of two airports in the Crimea region on Friday in what the new Ukrainian leadership described as an invasion by Moscow's forces, and ousted President Viktor Yanukovich surfaced in Russia after a week on the run.

Yanukovich said Russia should use all means at its disposal to stop the chaos in Ukraine as tension rose on the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, the only region with an ethnic Russian majority and the last major bastion of resistance to the overthrow of the Moscow-backed leader.

Acting President Oleksander Turchinov accused Russia of open aggression and said Moscow was following a scenario simliar to the one before it went to war with fellow former Soviet republic Georgia in 2008.

A day after gunmen seized the Ukrainian parliament and raised the Russian flag, a representative of Turchinov in Crimea said 13 Russian aircraft had landed on the Black Sea peninsula with 150 personnel on board each one.

More than 10 Russian military helicopters flew over Crimea and Russian servicemen blockaded a unit of the Ukrainian border guard in the port city of Sevastopol, the guard said.

A serviceman at the scene confirmed to Reuters he was from Russia's Black Sea Fleet, part of which is based in Sevastopol, and said they were there to stop the kind of protests that ousted Yanukovich in Kiev.

Some witnesses also reported seeing Russian armored personnel carriers and at least one warship on patrol.

The fleet denied its forces were involved in seizing the military airport near Sevastopol, where armed men later also occupied the runway, and a supporter described the armed group at the civilian international airport in Simferopol as Crimean militiamen. Ukraine's commercial airline said later that it had been refused entry into Crimean airspace.

Moscow has promised to defend the interests of its citizens in Ukraine. It has said it will not intervene by force, but its rhetoric since the removal of Yanukovich a week ago has echoed the run-up to its invasion of Georgia.

Any armed confrontation in Crimea would have major global repercussions, with Russia and the West already at odds over the change of power in Ukraine and supporting opposite sides in Syria's civil war. They have, however, pledged to cooperate to prop up Ukraine's faltering economy.

The U.N. Security Council called an emergency session for later on Friday at the request of Ukraine's new leaders, who warned the country's territorial integrity was threatened. Turchinov said he would not give in to "provocations".

KREMLIN ROLE

Ukraine's top security official, Andriy Paruby, said the armed men in Crimea were taking their orders from the top in Russia. "These are separate groups ... commanded by the Kremlin," Paruby, secretary of the National Security and Defence Council, told a televised briefing in Kiev.

One of the options being considered was declaring a state of emergency in Crimea, he added.

The United States warned all parties not to inflame the situation and said it had raised the issue of the reported armed takeovers of the airports with Russia. U.S. officials were seeking clarification of the origin of the armed men.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Moscow, which put 150,000 troops on high alert on Wednesday for war games near Ukraine's border, had told him it had no intention of violating Ukraine's sovereignty.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Ukraine's new leaders should implement a political deal brokered by the European Union before Yanukovich's ouster.

The Russian Foreign ministry said on its Facebook page that Russia's Consulate General in Crimea would hand out Russian passports to the servicemen of Ukraine's now-disbanded Berkut riot police. Protestors had accused the Berkut of firing the live bullets that killed dozens of protesters in Kiev."

At 2/28/14 09:51 PM, lapis wrote: Not really an official news source, this, but according to some reports the gunmen are members of the 76th Russian Shock Troops Division, who also fought in South-Ossetia against Georgia in 2008. If the Facebook post at the end is to believed, they're apparently also cracking down on institutions of the ethnic Tatars (Turkic Muslims who are the original inhabitants of the wider region), who do not have fond memories of Soviet rule and who are bound to oppose any pro-Russian takeover of Crimea.

Just a small point Tatars are NOT the original inhabitants, the Eastern Slavs predate them. Tatars were Turkic peoples who were part of the Mongol Horde and took over Russia establishing the Golden Horde where they ruled over Russia for a couple hundred years. That said they did incorporate some people who were natives, such as a portion of the Volga Bulgars, but Tatars as a culture were not the original inhabitants.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.

" - Barry Goldwater.

BBS Signature

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-02-28 22:25:41


Note: I started this thread before Russian troops entered Ukraine.

Recent events have rendered what I said a few days ago obsolete. I really wonder if this could mean a new war. Unfortunately, I don't see the US willing to militarily fight the Russians in Ukraine, mostly because what's to stop Russia from then invading other countries in retaliation? Plus they have the bomb, something that Saddam didn't when he invaded a country with intent to annex it in 1990.

At this point the actual level of occupation is unknown. Russia claims that it is just sending troops to its own military bases. That being said, the pro-Russian militants that have taken over Crimea as well as the recent bill Russia's Duma is passing to make annexation of other territories *cough* Ukraine *cough* doesn't quite sit well.

The US has a tricky game to play. If the masked gunmen in Crimea are sent by Russia, then we cannot let this aggression stand. If Russia is truly behind this, the US, EU, and NATO have an opportunity to build their unity and act against Russia. The UN may even get on it (well, except Russia and China).

So this could potentially turn into Russia's Iraq War, at least diplomatically. But that all depends if Russia is actually invading Ukraine, and if they are how much will they defend it? So many unanswered questions at this point. All I know is that Russia is staring the West down, and we cannot blink.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 01:15:38


At 2/28/14 10:24 PM, lapis wrote: I meant in comparison to the Russians of course, before those Eastern Slavs there were probably Scythians or whatever living in the region. Unless you want to claim that those Eastern Slavs are the ancestors of the Russians living there now, making them the original inhabitants of the region in a pseudo-Zionist "just coming back to our homeland" kind of way?

Uh what? Russians are descendants of the Kievan Rus which the Mongols destroyed, as are the Ukrainians and Belarusians. Obviously genetically Russians probably have Scythians dating back a long time as well as Tatars, Cumans, Kipchaks etc. etc. in their genetic line, but arguing the Eastern Slavs are not the same as the Russians in this sense is like arguing the Kingdom Of Northumbria isn't English. Sure they didn't speak modern day English nor observe the same exact customs, but god damn it they are part of England.

I'm not saying anything broader, I'm just saying that Tatars migrated to Russia after they conquered it.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.

" - Barry Goldwater.

BBS Signature

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 13:41:04


Remember, Russia hasn't "invaded" the Crimean peninsula, just like Robert Kraft "gave" Putin his Super Bowl ring.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 13:53:28


At 3/1/14 01:41 PM, Feoric wrote: Remember, Russia hasn't "invaded" the Crimean peninsula, just like Robert Kraft "gave" Putin his Super Bowl ring.

Da. It was so nice of Robert Kraft to give Putin his Superbowl ring by wearing it in his presence.


Just an 02er.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 14:38:43


I think it's time for the British to defend their honor and fight the Russians out of the Crimean. But seriously, could you limeys get your communication straight this time? Mistakes may make for good poetry, but they make for bad warfare.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 15:01:20


At 3/1/14 02:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I think it's time for the British to defend their honor and fight the Russians out of the Crimean. But seriously, could you limeys get your communication straight this time? Mistakes may make for good poetry, but they make for bad warfare.

Well I think it's about time we revisited the 19th century just for old times' sake. All this talk about Tatars and Cossacks sounds so familiar.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 15:03:31


At 3/1/14 03:01 PM, Feoric wrote:
At 3/1/14 02:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I think it's time for the British to defend their honor and fight the Russians out of the Crimean. But seriously, could you limeys get your communication straight this time? Mistakes may make for good poetry, but they make for bad warfare.
Well I think it's about time we revisited the 19th century just for old times' sake. All this talk about Tatars and Cossacks sounds so familiar.

The sad part is that the meat heads wont learn from past mistakes. I hope this time it is different.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 15:32:53


Putin is all about balancing the exertion of power and self preservation. There will be no war fought over this, at least not between Russia and NATO. From an international law perspective, Putin's justification for mobilization essentially boils down to R2P. If I'm not mistaken the same sort of language was used during the last Georgian conflict in '08.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 18:37:54


Is there actually anyone from the Ukraine in this thread? (if there even able to go online at this time...)

I'd love to hear an insiders voice on the matter. We can debate all we can on the matter, but we won't know any objective opinions until what is going on outside of press news.

But these are just my two cents..

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 18:45:34


At 3/1/14 06:37 PM, Damien wrote: Is there actually anyone from the Ukraine in this thread? (if there even able to go online at this time...)

I'd love to hear an insiders voice on the matter. We can debate all we can on the matter, but we won't know any objective opinions until what is going on outside of press news.

But these are just my two cents..

When this shit hit the fan we had a Ukrainian on the forums asking for monetary donations. The thread was locked.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 19:28:12


At 3/1/14 06:45 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: When this shit hit the fan we had a Ukrainian on the forums asking for monetary donations. The thread was locked.

because internet pan handling is against the rules.

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 19:45:04


At 3/1/14 07:28 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: because internet pan handling is against the rules.

You sure? The mods might be IMF stooges.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 19:51:20


At 3/1/14 07:28 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
At 3/1/14 06:45 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: When this shit hit the fan we had a Ukrainian on the forums asking for monetary donations. The thread was locked.
because internet pan handling is against the rules.

Asking for donations hers on NGS forum rules. Internet busking is fine though.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 21:12:30


At 3/1/14 07:45 PM, Feoric wrote:
At 3/1/14 07:28 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: because internet pan handling is against the rules.
You sure? The mods might be IMF stooges.

they might be!

Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 21:31:56


At 2/24/14 02:58 AM, Ranger2 wrote: But he committed acts of treason against the people, right? Well...nope. Nixing a pro-EU agreement you may have liked does not count as treason. You can protest against it, you can contact the opposition leaders against it, you can vote against it come election day, but violent revolts are not beneficial to the democratic process.

How about the fact he was mind-blowingly corrupt or that he had no problem murdering innocent civilians?

I could give two shits whether a government leans East or West, and I can honestly say if he was a good man who did well by his people and that lead him to be pro-Russian, I'd love to root for an underdog like that. But he wasn't. He embodied the worst Soviet traditions, and when it came to crunch time would rather have his people shot than face them in a court of law.

At 3/1/14 02:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: But seriously, could you limeys get your communication straight this time? Mistakes may make for good poetry, but they make for bad warfare.

The irony - Horrible communication making for great poetry.


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Response to Victory for Democracy in Ukraine? 2014-03-01 22:39:12


Well, it now seems Russian forces have invaded Ukraine via Cremian.

I guess the USA and Russia have more in common than they think, huh?