Be a Supporter!

How to handle musicians in projects

  • 812 Views
  • 28 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 14:34:19 Reply

Hopefully this is the right place to create this thread, if it should be posted anywhere at all.
It is intended to share my opinions based on experience regarding composing for projects.
Hopefully project organizers and musicians engaging in projects alike, will benefit from this.
Since this is a thread, please share your opinions, and discuss this topic so everyone including me will learn more.

Tell musicians what to do, not how to do it.

Many directors are passionate about their projects, and that's a good thing.
It's important to know what you want, in order to express yourself and make it work. But don't let this turn you into a control freak.
If other team members too feel it's their own thing, and be proud of their work,
they will provide the best work. Don't take away their enthusiasm and creativity by forcing limitations on them.
Instead acknowledge other people's skills. If you don't value a musicians skills, you've adopted the wrong one. Choose a composer who's style you think suits your project, and trust they will be able to do that.
What this means in practice; avoid technical details. Especially if you don't know what you're talking about.
What you should do do instead is say where music is wanted, and explain what a scene/level/whatever is about, so the composer can deside how to achieve this goal.

Examples

Wrong way to do it: level 5 - This is the second ice level, so same as previous level, but with more vibe. Minor crashes this time but a major crunch, a tiny bit of dub in between the syncopes, a repetive piano beat with lots of variation played by a saxophone sounding synth, an upfront reagea groove on the 1rst 2nd and 5d count (skip the 7th), , lesbian intercourse, an electro-acoustic drum riff that drags the song on, but should not be consiously determinable (when people think "Hey that's an electro-acoustic drum riff that drags the song on.", than you've failed), and some close by techno in the background. Retro neo-classical, but still modern sounding (: not what in the 50s they thought was futuristic, but what the day after tomorrow they observe as yesterday (you know what I mean ;))).
Right way: level 5 - After the snow storm of level 4, the hero enters the shelter of an ice cavern. It's composed of beautiful ice crystals, but the ground is slippery and there are dangerous pits. I want you to capture the beauty of the ice cavern, as well as the dangers of it. I like you to set this song appart from the previous in some way, even though they're both ice levels. There won't be a map sequence or victory fanfare in between, but this song imediately follows up the one of level 4.

A lot of directors nowadays sent youtube links to songs they think the composer's work should sound like. This is a double edged sword. It may be clearer than a discription (alone). Still it's very limiting to the composer's creativity which is what you should avoid. The composer will provide better work when he/she does what he/she's good at, than when he/she tries to immitate someone else. The new work always has to be different than the example in one way or the other (otherwise it's a one on one copy). It's not always clear what exactly the director likes about the example.
Once a game creator sent me an example of a rap song with electronic beat, and said "I want this, but without the rap and electronic instruments, and no hip hop, but classical instead so it fits in a medieval rpg setting." Can you imagine I didn't know what to do with that?

The composer has to be in the loop.

The more a composer knows about the project, the better the work will fit the project. As a director this means you should show the composer as much as you can about the project. eg screenplay, storyboard, concept art, unfinished cuts, demos, etc.
The composer has to be open to this, and not just stay in his/her own little world. The composer has to try to actively understand the project. Show interest, ask the right questions etc.

Communicate.

This is as important for the musician as it is for the director, since communication has to come from both directions. Be approachable. There are several mediums to communicate so be skilled in as many as you can, and try to find one that works for both. Keep checking in on each other every on or two weeks. If one sends an e-mail, better answer as quick as you can. I know people are busy, but it's simply better when you don't leave coworkers hanging.
I know it seems like an open door, but here is where it goes wrong most of the time. Sending out an e-mail each week with new songs and questions, only to get a response several months later saying "Awesome", is very frustrating a demotivating (and yes this literally happened).

Make clear agreements.

Some people like to make strict schedules, others need freedom and prefer to just see what happens. This often clashes. Any way, in order to make things happen you have to make certain agreements. Make it clear what one expects of the other. If things don't work out, let it know as soon as possible, so new arrangements can be made.
Avoid shifting finish lines. Few things are more frustrating than thinking you're (almost) done, only to get more work, and more after that, and after that. What you than get is people stop doing anything because they know that when they're done they only get more work. People have to have a sense of when their work is finished. Ask for a reasonable amount of work, and allow the composer to plan it.
I once was asked to make an already lengthy soundtrack, and when after four months I was 80% done I got news plans were changed. The amount of work I had to do was trippled, and half of what I'd done wouldn't be used. Not nice.
The people involved have an obligation to meet their agreements. Once a project leader told me he didn't have to finish the project. This is very honest, but I had to tell him I wouldn't waste any of my time on it then. Worse would have been if I wasted several years of my life on a project, only to have the project canceled. The only thing you can do about that is take on assignments you think will see the light. Have a back-up plan, like "If the project won't be finished I can use this sound track as an album of my own, or for another project."

Now I notice I focus a little too much on the negative side, and I apologize for that. I don't mean to criticize directors. I respect people organising a project, and I love to be on board of some interesting ones. Just providing my point of view. The problems you encounter stay with you more than the things that go smoothly.

Any directors, musicians an other people who read this, please comment on what your collaboration experiences and opinions are, and whether or not you agree with what I said. Fire away.


BBS Signature
Step
Step
  • Member since: Nov. 4, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 25
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 14:50:52 Reply

You have literally spoken my mind on every single point and opinion I have on how employers should treat musicians.

Two things though;
1.) Rather than to all-out avoid sending YouTube links to musicians, it can actually help. In fact, anything like that can help. As you said, the more a musician knows about a project, the better, even if it means knowing about what the employer is looking for in terms of music style. However, everything the employer offers to the musician must be an idea not an order, unless it is vital to the project that the musician carries it out. So an employer should send the YouTube link as a form of inspiration or suggestion, not a "replicate this music" kind of thing.

2.) Making clear agreements is harder than it sounds. Tackling a creative project with every little detail planned out is generally not a good idea, at least in my opinion. I love planning things ahead and do it all the time, but there will always be times, especially in creative projects, where awesome ideas and stuff pop up halfway through development, causing people to have more work to do.

However, not using music that a musician was working on just for the sake of the plan being changed is just a dick move though. I can understand that happening if the music just doesn't work with the idea they had in mind, but it happens so much that minutes of music are literally scrapped because the developers had a new idea. Rather than scrapping it, they should find a way to include it in their new ideas. Developers should not see musicians as generators of music, because this mentality will not work.

This stuff practically counts for how to handle all kinds of artists, really.


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

BBS Signature
stunkel
stunkel
  • Member since: Jul. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 14:52:35 Reply

This is awesome. I agree with just about everything in here. Nice work typing all of this up!


Check out my pages!
Soundcloud Youtube Twitter Facebook

frootza
frootza
  • Member since: Jun. 4, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 25
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 15:16:09 Reply

This was on point with the concerns of music composers. I feel like when you are combining different mediums, everyone is from a different world. It can be hard to work together because of this.

Lack of communication is a big issue. I've been contacted by people in the past about working on different projects. Either there is not enough information, or it takes too long to communicate between involved parties.

I really don't mind when information isn't specific, or even if it is obscure. I know that if I write something that sounds good, and at least fits what we're working on, it will sound right. If there is a comparison track, that is okay too. Writing based upon different genres is a great way to grow as a musician, and emulating different jingles yet making it your own is another great way to grow.

Another issue is how much to share. Often times in the beginning stages, everyone is just trying to see what the other person is working with. The worst that can happen is for someone to say... "Hey! I have this awesome idea, can you write me something now please?" and the project isn't even under way. Everyone needs to time everything just right.

I think this was an awesome thread idea. I hope more people can contribute. Maybe we can find the best way to collaborate between different mediums.


Check it! :) //// Never stop making music. Play MOTORJOUST!!!Check it! :)

Lich
Lich
  • Member since: Dec. 25, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 01
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 15:18:40 Reply

Very well stated. Bookmarked!


| Music | News | Favorites | - Audio Destruction, Evolving One Track At A Time!

BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 17:56:40 Reply

Nice to see so many comments already. All very fair points. I suppose most of the things I mentioned will only be a problem in extremes cases.

At 2/27/13 02:50 PM, Step wrote: 1.) Rather than to all-out avoid sending YouTube links to musicians, it can actually help.

That's why I said it was a double edged sword. Youtube liks have helped me too. It can tell you something about the taste of the employer, and what he/she expects from you. Example songs can be inspiring. It only becomes a problem if it's unclear what the employer likes about the example song, or if he/she is too focused on getting a song that sounds exactly like the example.

2.) Making clear agreements is harder than it sounds.

Normaly when people are a bit flexible and stay reasonable, you'll come to a solution. If not then you may have problems.

This stuff practically counts for how to handle all kinds of artists, really.

Very true. Since I'm labled as musician here, and that is where most of my experience comes from, I post this here.

At 2/27/13 03:16 PM, frootza wrote: I think this was an awesome thread idea. I hope more people can contribute. Maybe we can find the best way to collaborate between different mediums.

Thanks. I hope so too. I think we can learn a lot by discussing this.

I really don't mind when information isn't specific, or even if it is obscure.

Yes, it only becomes a problem when people are unreasonable about it. When information isn't specific you can just do what you think is right, but you can get complaints afterwards, and you'll have to start over again. It's not always easy for the employer to express what he/she wants. As a musician you have to be patient and ask the right questions. As a project organizer you have to learn how to expres yourself, and leave some of the decisions up to the musicians.

At 2/27/13 02:52 PM, stunkel wrote: This is awesome. I agree with just about everything in here. Nice work typing all of this up!

Glad you like it. I thought a long time about these things. It's also about blowing off some steam for me to be honest.

At 2/27/13 03:18 PM, LichLordMusic wrote: Very well stated. Bookmarked!

That means a lot. Hope it will become only more interesting.


BBS Signature
StaticBlu
StaticBlu
  • Member since: Jan. 1, 2013
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 02
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 18:52:47 Reply

Wow.That's a lot of helpful information here. I don't have a bunch of composer experience right now (mainly with a completed project), but this will definitely give me a better sense of what to look for when working on a project. Great post!

MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Online!
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 19:13:42 Reply

Your point about Youtube links is one I make ALL THE BLOODY TIME and yet everyone hates me and shuns me for it. lol
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks
a) It's bad practice because it leads to copying
b) It's destructive more than anything since you're asking the composer to be a machine, not a creative mind.

Big thumbs up to you!


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out! Veteran REAPER user.

BBS Signature
stunkel
stunkel
  • Member since: Jul. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 19:19:30 Reply

At 2/27/13 07:13 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Your point about Youtube links is one I make ALL THE BLOODY TIME and yet everyone hates me and shuns me for it. lol
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks
a) It's bad practice because it leads to copying
b) It's destructive more than anything since you're asking the composer to be a machine, not a creative mind.

Big thumbs up to you!

Well, I think that depends on the composer. Someone who doesn't know how to explain a genre or a sub genre or an emotion can easily just send a youtube link. There is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from something, the composer will know if they are straight up copying them


Check out my pages!
Soundcloud Youtube Twitter Facebook

Breed
Breed
  • Member since: Mar. 23, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 11
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 19:19:41 Reply

Good information. Agree 100%.

Here's the problem with good information though. The ones who are most likely to do everything wrong, are the ones who won't even bother to read it.

I've run into this problem plenty of times. Don't forget....you can always quit a project if the director is not worth working for. I've had to do this plenty of times because in the business of art, people are quite bad at judging value of both time and work.

MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Online!
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 19:45:49 Reply

At 2/27/13 07:19 PM, Breed wrote: because in the business of art, people are quite bad at judging value of both time and work.

Oh man, so damn true it hurts.


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out! Veteran REAPER user.

BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 20:06:08 Reply

At 2/27/13 07:19 PM, stunkel wrote: Well, I think that depends on the composer. Someone who doesn't know how to explain a genre or a sub genre or an emotion can easily just send a youtube link. There is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from something, the composer will know if they are straight up copying them

I agree with the second part. Composers should just take the example as a reference for the style nothing more. Unfortunately employers sometimes expect the composer to almost exactly copy the example. I personaly don't like it when someone sends me a youtube link with an example of how I should make a song. Feels indoctrinating. It does more harm than good.

At 2/27/13 07:13 PM, MetalRenard wrote: a) It's bad practice because it leads to copying
b) It's destructive more than anything since you're asking the composer to be a machine, not a creative mind.

That about sums it up.


BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 21:47:41 Reply

At 2/27/13 07:19 PM, Breed wrote:

:The ones who are most likely to do everything wrong, are the ones who won't even bother to read it.

Nothing to do about that. Just hope for the best. Samulis told me he was going to show it to all of his clients, so there's a start. He's making a website to "help teach people about orchestral music in general as well as resources for people interested in writing/commissioning orchestral music for games/films.". Sounds useful.

in the business of art, people are quite bad at judging value of both time and work.

Including me. I've started about a hundred projects only to find out it's way too much work. When I'm working on something artistic, I go on for much longer than I have time for. At the cost of sleep, food or important appointments. I just can't seem to stop.


BBS Signature
samulis
samulis
  • Member since: Jan. 3, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 08
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-27 23:00:52 Reply

At 2/27/13 07:13 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Your point about Youtube links is one I make ALL THE BLOODY TIME and yet everyone hates me and shuns me for it. lol
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks
a) It's bad practice because it leads to copying
b) It's destructive more than anything since you're asking the composer to be a machine, not a creative mind.

Big thumbs up to you!

Seconded. I once had someone send me links to electronic VG music on youtube after I had made it pretty clear I write a distinct and wholly different sub-genre of orchestral and told them they should listen to my existing works to get a feel for it before considering asking me to help... People think that an example will help, but really, it hinders the creativity of the composer- when I get a link to some Zelda soundtrack piece, I have no idea what the guy likes about it or why it is even relevant. The even worse version of this is when someone wants irrelevant music in their game just because they like the genre or sound, where it does NOT help the game immerse the player.

Thanks for writing this rant/post/thing again. I do plan on sharing it around, or at least the basic ideas- I think the consensus seen so far in this thread is almost completely unanimous in support of what you said, from all levels of professionals.


My Music - Virtual Instruments - Website
Orchestral/Cinematic Composer

BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 07:36:42 Reply

At 2/27/13 11:00 PM, samulis wrote: Thanks for writing this rant/post/thing again. I do plan on sharing it around, or at least the basic ideas- I think the consensus seen so far in this thread is almost completely unanimous in support of what you said, from all levels of professionals.

Didn't mean to turn it into a rant, but I couldn't help myself. I thought that was going to bite me in the ass. Apperently not. People seem to relate to this.


BBS Signature
deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 10:02:12 Reply

Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.

Good topic btw, I will share this with many of my peers and contractors :) Thanks!


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
frootza
frootza
  • Member since: Jun. 4, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 25
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 15:22:53 Reply

At 2/28/13 10:02 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.

Good topic btw, I will share this with many of my peers and contractors :) Thanks!

This is a good idea too!

When it comes to studio musicians, you need to become friends with them! If you can develop relationships with great musicians, your costs when it comes to paying for studio work will be greatly reduced. Its totally okay if you are writing stuff in finale, or using native instruments for orchestral pieces, but lets say you want to kick it up a notch... Serious players charge a lot of money!

I recently recorded a live rock track that I wrote a few years back. The drummer who was available was a friend of mine I had played shows with and chilled with a few times. He normally charges $500 dollars per song! Literally (he is that amazing, he can).

But for me, he did it for free (and this was a hell tough song to play! On par with Travis Barker style drumming)

The same goes for other instruments as well. Start going to different gigs, if not to play, just to listen. Afterwards, start networking with the musicians you just seen. Compliment them if they did a good job, and if they are good players, become friends on facebook or exchange contact info.

Even if you don't have a track at the time, you might have something a few months later. Sometimes being offered to appear on a friends track is enough inventive for a musician to appear for free.


Check it! :) //// Never stop making music. Play MOTORJOUST!!!Check it! :)

wandschrank
wandschrank
  • Member since: Aug. 11, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 15
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 16:51:39 Reply

Very good topic! I fully agree with your statements.

At 2/28/13 10:02 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.

I don't think that this is important for 99% of NG's audio artists.

Some (like you ;D) study something with music or work in the music biz, but most of us do it as a hobby, and very few of us have enough spare time / luck / are motivated enough.. etc. to earn so much money with their music that they would even consider getting studio session players. I am already surprised by the amount of people here who invest 2412414 Dollars in EWQL stuff (or claim they have and pirate it instead..). It's not that easy to get access to a studio and record something in high quality with expensive hardware if you don't have any connections.

.. Also, all you need as an EDM artist may be a vocalist or someone who masters your track or whatever. ;D

SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 19:27:08 Reply

At 2/28/13 04:51 PM, wandschrank wrote:
At 2/28/13 10:02 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.
I don't think that this is important for 99% of NG's audio artists.

Some (like you ;D) study something with music or work in the music biz, but most of us do it as a hobby, and very few of us have enough spare time / luck / are motivated enough.. etc. to earn so much money with their music that they would even consider getting studio session players. I am already surprised by the amount of people here who invest 2412414 Dollars in EWQL stuff (or claim they have and pirate it instead..). It's not that easy to get access to a studio and record something in high quality with expensive hardware if you don't have any connections.

.. Also, all you need as an EDM artist may be a vocalist or someone who masters your track or whatever. ;D

Have to agree with Wandschrank here. Most of us (including me) don't have the luxury of owning a (professional) studio.
Closest I get to handling studio session players is when I have friends over at my house and have them record there, when I ask them to record things at their own house, or when I somehow get some studio time at the local cultural centre (though I'm not the one handling the equipment there). Even then I don't know how to make session players do what I want, how much I should leave up to them, how anyone should record me. The only thing I can do well is record myself, and not even that is always a great succes. Anyhow, I don't have enough experience regarding this.

Interesting topic though. Deadlyfishes can write that one if he wishes. I'd be interesting to read more about it.


BBS Signature
deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-02-28 22:02:34 Reply

At 2/28/13 07:27 PM, SourJovis wrote:
At 2/28/13 04:51 PM, wandschrank wrote:
At 2/28/13 10:02 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Now you should make part 2:
How to handle your recording studio session players?
Also, union players vs. non union players?
I don't know if anyone else deals with this, but it might be worth mentioning.
I don't think that this is important for 99% of NG's audio artists.

Some (like you ;D) study something with music or work in the music biz, but most of us do it as a hobby, and very few of us have enough spare time / luck / are motivated enough.. etc. to earn so much money with their music that they would even consider getting studio session players. I am already surprised by the amount of people here who invest 2412414 Dollars in EWQL stuff (or claim they have and pirate it instead..). It's not that easy to get access to a studio and record something in high quality with expensive hardware if you don't have any connections.

.. Also, all you need as an EDM artist may be a vocalist or someone who masters your track or whatever. ;D
Have to agree with Wandschrank here. Most of us (including me) don't have the luxury of owning a (professional) studio.
Closest I get to handling studio session players is when I have friends over at my house and have them record there, when I ask them to record things at their own house, or when I somehow get some studio time at the local cultural centre (though I'm not the one handling the equipment there). Even then I don't know how to make session players do what I want, how much I should leave up to them, how anyone should record me. The only thing I can do well is record myself, and not even that is always a great succes. Anyhow, I don't have enough experience regarding this.

Interesting topic though. Deadlyfishes can write that one if he wishes. I'd be interesting to read more about it.

Ahhhh, I might write it up on a notepad or something overtime. There's a lot of difference between all the ways you get live players:

-Your friends/family at your home studio
-Recruiting players remotely (via online contact, they record in their own home studio)
-Recruiting players (non-union) locally to record in a professional studio
-Recruiting union players to record in a professional studio

There are a lot of orchestral union groups out there, they all have their own rate policies and such so you'll HAVE to go by that if you find someone who is a union player. If not you'll have to go by someone's personal rates, but the good thing is that you can negotiate it with them at least.

There's just as much stuff to say about how to "handle" the musicians in your recording sessions as there is stuff to say about how to handle musicians in projects, but I might have to start that topic somewhere else at another time :D

Also, I don't own a studio... I have a nice little setup at my apartment, but it's not enough to record a large ensemble players. If I want to do that, I have to use my project budget to book the studio time and pay the session players.

I do have access to the recording studios at school, but that's only for school related projects. I've only done a couple of non-school related projects where I had to use my budget from a game or film project to book studio time and players. Don't think you can get away with fancy mock-up libraries, though they can sound awesome, the people who fund these projects know very well what real players sound like, and they pay for it. They CAN tell if you really did spend your cut on what you were supposed to, or if you just pocket'ed the cash and only just used your sequencer. Sometimes they will let you do that, but obviously you won't get that large heap of money they would normally give to you if you were asked to use live players.

Anyways, I will probably post something up in the BBS sometime. Again, nice topic here SJ :)


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
wandschrank
wandschrank
  • Member since: Aug. 11, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 15
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-01 01:57:07 Reply

At 2/28/13 10:02 PM, deadlyfishes wrote:

-Your friends/family at your home studio
-Recruiting players remotely (via online contact, they record in their own home studio)
-Recruiting players (non-union) locally to record in a professional studio
-Recruiting union players to record in a professional studio

Okay, then I misunderstood you. The expressions "studio session players" & "union players" made me think you're talking about professional musicians only. ;D

SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-01 11:17:31 Reply

At 3/1/13 01:57 AM, wandschrank wrote: Okay, then I misunderstood you. The expressions "studio session players" & "union players" made me think you're talking about professional musicians only. ;D

Either way, I'm sure there will be a take home message for everyone.


BBS Signature
Neon-Bard
Neon-Bard
  • Member since: Aug. 3, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-01 15:14:14 Reply

Great read! I really think you've hit the mark with this man. I just wish that these guidelines were followed on a regular basis.


If you have a moment, check out some of my work:
[Music here on Newgrounds] [Soundcloud]

BBS Signature
Ragamuffin
Ragamuffin
  • Member since: Feb. 12, 2013
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 03
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-01 19:18:36 Reply

I love this thread, and I love you for making it. As an artist musician (as opposed to a producer musician), I've had troubles with this before. I'm currently in a video game project where the director keeps telling me that it's really close but not quite there, but can't tell me what's wrong, and doesn't show me concept art or even written story.

It helps when a director gives me bands, artists, or genres to sound like, but I personally dislike being asked to re-make songs on youtube without copyrighting. It happens a lot, and I do it of course, money and stuff. It feels dull and uncreative, though, and I think that generally the sounds would come out much better if I wasn't trying to be someone else's song.

Pro tip: Show your musician concept art. We're sound people, yeah, but more of us than you think are able to pull sound straight out of imagery. Not everyone prefers to do it like this, but this is the best way for a lot of us.


BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-01 21:50:27 Reply

At 3/1/13 03:14 PM, Neon-Bard wrote: I just wish that these guidelines were followed on a regular basis.

Yeah me too. It would be a better world.

At 3/1/13 07:18 PM, ATTW7-Envy wrote: I'm currently in a video game project where the director keeps telling me that it's really close but not quite there, but can't tell me what's wrong, and doesn't show me concept art or even written story.

Oh no! My director is hiring you behind my back! (or yours is hiring me behind your back)

I think that generally the sounds would come out much better if I wasn't trying to be someone else's song.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.


BBS Signature
Cowherd
Cowherd
  • Member since: Oct. 16, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 04
Blank Slate
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-02 13:04:58 Reply

At 2/27/13 02:34 PM, SourJovis wrote: Wrong way to do it: level 5 - This is the second ice level, so same as previous level, but with more vibe. Minor crashes this time but a major crunch, a tiny bit of dub in between the syncopes, a repetive piano beat with lots of variation played by a saxophone sounding synth, an upfront reagea groove on the 1rst 2nd and 5d count (skip the 7th), , lesbian intercourse

Did anyone notice the last word of the part I quoted in the OP?

Was that to test to see if we were paying attention?

Btw great threat. I think not only does it apply to all artists, but extends beyond that field into every form of cooperation. At least in a sense. You always have to communicate, keep employees in the loop to keep them enthusiastic, and appreciate their skills to get the best out of them.

Made me think about all the things IâEUTMm doing wrong. Like looking into a mirror.

frootza
frootza
  • Member since: Jun. 4, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 25
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-02 13:06:03 Reply

At 3/1/13 07:18 PM, ATTW7-Envy wrote: Pro tip: Show your musician concept art. We're sound people, yeah, but more of us than you think are able to pull sound straight out of imagery. Not everyone prefers to do it like this, but this is the best way for a lot of us.

So true. Sometimes we get inspiration visually. I will occasionally put on a movie with awesome visuals, and I will loop it on mute. Mess around and try to write something that fits the visuals. It definitely makes for a greater project as a whole in the end.


Check it! :) //// Never stop making music. Play MOTORJOUST!!!Check it! :)

SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-03-02 18:08:49 Reply

At 3/2/13 01:04 PM, Cowherd wrote: Was that to test to see if we were paying attention?

Yes. You pass ïS

I think not only does it apply to all artists, but extends beyond that field into every form of cooperation.

Nice you feel that way. I feel the same.

Made me think about all the things I'm doing wrong. Like looking into a mirror.

Looking in the mirror is something you do wrong? :p
Just kidding. You meant itâEUTMs like IâEUTMm holding up a mirror by writing this, and you recognize some of your own limitations. I don't think many of the people who need to read this do, and when they do, they won't have a clue what they do wrong. It's very brave to admit your own mistakes, and it's the first and most important thing in improving yourself. A lot of things that I've listed here I do wrong myself. In that sense I'm a little hypocrite. But it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to say it, because it's still things others should think about. I should try to improve myself as well of course. Like communicate more even if I don't always have much or good news.

At 3/2/13 01:06 PM, frootza wrote:
At 3/1/13 07:18 PM, ATTW7-Envy wrote: Pro tip: Show your musician concept art. We're sound people, yeah, but more of us than you think are able to pull sound straight out of imagery. Not everyone prefers to do it like this, but this is the best way for a lot of us.
So true. Sometimes we get inspiration visually. I will occasionally put on a movie with awesome visuals, and I will loop it on mute. Mess around and try to write something that fits the visuals. It definitely makes for a greater project as a whole in the end.

I agree. Musicians often translate images to sound. That's (part) of our work as composer right? I myself love concept art, whether it's for a project IâEUTMm working on, or just something I'm a fan of. Also I like demos or rough edits. Directors are very hesitant to show those to me, because "It isn't finished" and "You'll get the wrong impression", but I can see past all those things. I know it will get better, but I want to see progress. I want to know what IâEUTMm doing it for, need some inspiration, and know I'm not the only one working here. Besides. I myself also constantly send work in progress, hoping to get some feedback.


BBS Signature
Calamaistr
Calamaistr
  • Member since: Aug. 11, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Musician
Response to How to handle musicians in projects 2013-06-20 08:45:42 Reply

Haha good topic i recognice my experiences so much in the youtube links thing, why do people do that ;=;
I find it almost insulting when people send me youtube links and ask me to create something like it, why not send the person who made that track a email to make your ost lol.
Every composer draws his music in his own way, you cant expect someone to copy a style when you ask for a original soundtrack, the most i can make out of a request like that is to copy the instrumentation, no further.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. pm me for (free) hire, depending on your project i will make you a ost.