At 11/10/12 09:08 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

At 11/10/12 06:58 PM, Ravariel wrote:

"These are the questions of this thread Is Taxation theft ?" and "The question I am trying to get at and maybe someone here knows the answer to is that what is the actual agreement and rights or EULA for lack of better word LOL to anyone that uses legal tender or Federal Reserve Notes as a means of currency ?" If you can't answer these questions just simply admit it and move along and or just move along start your own personal thread with Ravariel about pouring acid etc as I am really interested in getting my question answered hence why I started this new thread.

At 11/10/12 09:42 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 11/10/12 06:58 PM, Ravariel wrote:

"These are the questions of this thread Is Taxation theft ?"

Shush, kiddo, the adults are speaking now. If you're not bright enough to realize how the issues Smilez and I are discussing affect the eventual answer (if there is one) to your original question, maybe you should step aside.

Also, short answer: no. Long answer: working on it. I'll have a response to Smilez up tomorrow.

your fucking dumb

this "thievery" is a mandatory donation to help the government... govern. you like the municipal power lines?

At 11/11/12 12:14 AM, Osyris wrote: your fucking dumb

this "thievery" is a mandatory donation to help the government... govern. you like the municipal power lines?

Funny as I did not receive an invoice outlining what my tax dollars are going to pay for. Did you receive an invoice ?

At 11/11/12 12:09 AM, Ravariel wrote:

At 11/10/12 09:42 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 11/10/12 06:58 PM, Ravariel wrote:

"These are the questions of this thread Is Taxation theft ?"

Shush, kiddo, the adults are speaking now. If you're not bright enough to realize how the issues Smilez and I are discussing affect the eventual answer (if there is one) to your original question, maybe you should step aside.

Also, short answer: no. Long answer: working on it. I'll have a response to Smilez up tomorrow.

Why all the personal attacks ? Clearly you two don't have a clue what you are talking about so stop derailing the thread.

At 11/11/12 12:14 AM, Osyris wrote: your fucking dumb

this "thievery" is a mandatory donation to help the government... govern. you like the municipal power lines?

Also Mandatory theft is still theft.

So... if taxation is illegal and illegitimate, would taking advantage of the Universal Healthcare System in Canada be highly immoral since you're taking advantage of a system paid for using stolen funds?

At 11/11/12 12:40 AM, Proteas wrote: So... if taxation is illegal and illegitimate, would taking advantage of the Universal Healthcare System in Canada be highly immoral since you're taking advantage of a system paid for using stolen funds?

Hypothetically there is absolutely no reason why Corporation such as Esso Oil, Syncrude/Suncore, Halliburton, Husky Oil etc could not easy foot the bill easily. I don't have Billions and Trillions of Dollars revenue per year I am poor as I don't even have a few dollars to spare.

At 11/11/12 12:53 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Hypothetically there is absolutely no reason why Corporation such as Esso Oil, Syncrude/Suncore, Halliburton, Husky Oil etc could not easy foot the bill easily. I don't have Billions and Trillions of Dollars revenue per year I am poor as I don't even have a few dollars to spare.

What if they don't consent to the taxation? They are having money forcefully taken from them just the same as you, just because they have more money doesn't make a difference in the matter, as the only thing that supports your theory is consent.

At 11/11/12 01:30 AM, Proteas wrote: What if they don't consent to the taxation? They are having money forcefully taken from them just the same as you, just because they have more money doesn't make a difference in the matter, as the only thing that supports your theory is consent.

Remember, this is Big Business we're talking about, it's a known fact they hate paying taxes, that's why they constantly lobby for lower tax rates and earn favor with politicians. So it's not a stretch to assume they'd like to keep all the money they've earned, or that they would want to stop paying taxes altogether if they had the chance.

At 11/11/12 01:30 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 11/11/12 12:53 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Hypothetically there is absolutely no reason why Corporation such as Esso Oil, Syncrude/Suncore, Halliburton, Husky Oil etc could not easy foot the bill easily. I don't have Billions and Trillions of Dollars revenue per year I am poor as I don't even have a few dollars to spare.

What if they don't consent to the taxation? They are having money forcefully taken from them just the same as you, just because they have more money doesn't make a difference in the matter, as the only thing that supports your theory is consent.

The difference here is that they are scaring up the earth and giving people cancers so the leased they could do is give back in the form of taking care of public health care for the Billions of people and planet they are fucking over.

At 11/11/12 01:36 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: The difference here is that they are scaring up the earth and giving people cancers so the leased they could do is give back in the form of taking care of public health care for the Billions of people and planet they are fucking over.

How is this possible if, according to you, "Big Business" is essentially one in the same with respect to politicians, the very same people that would make this possible? Do you not see that your very own logic takes you down a road of massive conflict of interest?

At 11/11/12 01:39 AM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/11/12 01:36 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: The difference here is that they are scaring up the earth and giving people cancers so the leased they could do is give back in the form of taking care of public health care for the Billions of people and planet they are fucking over.

How is this possible if, according to you, "Big Business" is essentially one in the same with respect to politicians, the very same people that would make this possible? Do you not see that your very own logic takes you down a road of massive conflict of interest?

Not when it is based upon goof moral fiber. Why taxes Billion of poor people when you can tax a does of the worlds biggest Corporation that typically oppress and enslave to begin with. If I had many Millions or Billions of revenue and savings the I would have no problem foot the basic public health care for all of Canada. Also all good deeds will be rewarded even for big assed "evil" corporations.

At 11/11/12 01:53 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Not when it is based upon goof moral fiber.

Your definition of "good moral fiber" has a double standard, though; it's all good and fine for you to stand up and denounce taxation as illegitimate, but it's not when somebody else (i.e.; big business) does it. And if your life is made that much better by them being unable to be tax free, so be it. This just shows that your concept of "Secular Ethics" is truly skewed, as it's neither logical or rational, just situational and solipsistic.

That being said, I wonder how you feel about your tax dollars being used to provide you with essential services. You know, ensure that you have roads to drive on, properly functioning public utilities to provide you with electricity and running water, public education, law enforcement to help ensure your safety, fire departments and EMT's to help you if you're in need, so on and so forth. Surely you don't consider it immoral for your local officials to use your tax money to ensure that you have safe roads to drive on, hm?

*sigh*

I would act shocked at you enforcing a poorly thought double-standard that benefits you and no one else, but I would expect nothing less from you, pox.

At 11/11/12 10:53 PM, Proteas wrote:

Your definition of "good moral fiber" has a double standard

See the problem here is that when I get my ass taxed it's taking food off my table and decreasing my level of health and quality of life whereas the Big Corps with all the money can easily afford to give without sacrificing anything. In reality by way of big Corps giving back money for social programs and infrastructure it would actually be extremely beneficial for society as a whole and enable people to become healthier and more productive workers as well as empowered self sufficient human beings especially when you consider a Corporation is not even a Human Being to begin with so no harm done just maximum goodness for all parties involved.

At 11/12/12 12:59 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: See the problem here is that when I get my ass taxed it's taking food off my table and decreasing my level of health and quality of life

Welcome to being an adult in modern society. Sucks, doesn't it?

whereas the Big Corps with all the money can easily afford to give without sacrificing anything. In reality by way of big Corps giving back money for social programs and infrastructure it would actually be extremely beneficial for society as a whole and enable people to become healthier and more productive workers as well as empowered self sufficient human beings

And if they were all of the sudden the only ones paying taxes, what incentive do they have to stay in your country? I can already see you levying an astronomically huge tax on big business in order to compensate for the budget shortfall you would create by ceasing taxation on the general populace, and as such, would make it impossible for big business to continue existing and making a profit. Your perfect system is going to falter in short order, and the quality of your "free" healthcare will soon suffer to the point that the doctor will hand you Robitussin and kick your ass out the door sooner than treat you.

especially when you consider a Corporation is not even a Human Being to begin with so no harm done just maximum goodness for all parties involved.

A corporation is comprised of human beings, all of whom are responsible for the actions of the company and all of whom would easily withdraw their consent to pay taxes. As such, it would be immoral to tax them or benefit from programs paid for by taxes levied.

You lose, pox.

At 11/12/12 10:13 AM, Proteas wrote:

whereas the Big Corps with all the money can easily afford to give without sacrificing anything. In reality by way of big Corps giving back money for social programs and infrastructure it would actually be extremely beneficial for society as a whole and enable people to become healthier and more productive workers as well as empowered self sufficient human beings

;;;;
Actually this is somewhat shortsighted
As someone who owns a corporate company & does business in Canada.
One of the things tax breaks do for a corporation is it frees up cash flow. Another major incentive is when you outlay capital on upgrades, new equipment, research & possible developement of products,
SO by taking money from Corporations & forcing them to pay large tax bills will reduce their working capital, effect their purchasing power as well as their ability to grow, which effects the amount of employees, purchase of supplies etc !
All the afore mentioned costs are taken directly from your gross income BEFORE TAXES are figured, so only what is left over is taxed & when you deduct payroll (which is taxable income paid by the employee to the governments) & all of the companies expenses, which isn't the case in my business as I own 100% of the shares, but in companies that pay shareholdes, another tax deduction it is easy to get the companies income to zero, very easily.
Also when a profit is noted the system of defering it to the next tax year is another useful tool.
So if you wanted to tax a large Corporate Company that can show a ZERO income after expenses .... exactly what is say 25% or ZERO ? ? ?
That's right boys & girls its NOTHING !

So while a Corporate compay itself may not pay any taxes foro the past year, its employees do, it has to buy products, & services from others ...so goods & services taxes are paid etc.

And if they were all of the sudden the only ones paying taxes, what incentive do they have to stay in your country? I can already see you levying an astronomically huge tax on big business in order to compensate for the budget shortfall you would create by ceasing taxation on the general populace, and as such, would make it impossible for big business to continue existing and making a profit. Your perfect system is going to falter in short order, and the quality of your "free" healthcare will soon suffer to the point that the doctor will hand you Robitussin and kick your ass out the door sooner than treat you.

Proteas in this above paragraph, one incentive to be here here in Canada, is our natural resources ...you can't go to India to save money on costs to produce oil in Alberta or Newfoundland !
You can't use China for Northern Diamond exploration & mining !
Just 2 examples on that part

Secondly WE DO NOT HAVE FREE HEALTH CARE IN CANADA
That is an American Myth ....one I would love to help remove ....what is the number for myth busters ?????

In Canada we pay into a taxation system that includes HEALTH CARE
Basicly what you are doing is putting money into an account for your healthcare, so when you need it medical practicioners, hospitals, all that is needed to help you is waiting for yer arrival !

You gatta stop thinking about it as being free , it isn't, its fucking expensive & all Canadians help pay for it
BUT as a bonus with our taxation system
On top of Canadians paying for it , EVERY SINGLE TOURIST & VISITOR who buys a coffee, a paper or stays in a hotel etc helps pay for it in our HST tax which is collected across the country, the HST is a sales tax levied on just about everything sold as well as services rendered. A portion of which is used for health care.

You lose, pox.

I know not if Pox is actually the entity called leanlifter ... sort of irks me that a Mod hides behind n Alt to make topics & post .... After all why not just write exactly the same things under yer Pox persona ?

At 11/12/12 10:45 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Proteas in this above paragraph, one incentive to be here here in Canada, is our natural resources ...you can't go to India to save money on costs to produce oil in Alberta or Newfoundland !

I'm talking about a financial incentive, not the incentive or inexpensive resources. How much of a budget shortfall would occur in your system if the general populace didn't have to pay taxes anymore? How much would big business' taxes have to increase to compensate for that budget shortfal so as to ensure the same level of healthcare and quality of utilities?

Secondly WE DO NOT HAVE FREE HEALTH CARE IN CANADA

That's why I used quotations around the word "free," more. I know it's not "free" by any means.

I know not if Pox is actually the entity called leanlifter ... sort of irks me that a Mod hides behind n Alt to make topics & post .... After all why not just write exactly the same things under yer Pox persona ?

Because then we could just go "Oh, it's Pox being stupid again, just ignore him and he'll go away."

At 11/12/12 12:27 PM, Proteas wrote: I'm talking about a financial incentive, not the incentive or inexpensive resources. How much of a budget shortfall would occur in your system if the general populace didn't have to pay taxes anymore? How much would big business' taxes have to increase to compensate for that budget shortfal so as to ensure the same level of healthcare and quality of utilities?

Here's some rough math to throw out there, for fun.

Let's say that there are 15,000,000 tax paying units in Canada (couting married filing jointly ouples as one, and not counting all below 18 youth) who pay an average of a measly 1,000 a year. That's 15 Billion that needs to be made up. Let's bump that to a more likely 10,000 a year, and you get 150 Billion a year. Make that 12800 to match an estimated average nd you get 192 Billion. That's a HUGE pill to swallow just for realtively easy access to oil.

Take the numbers to the US (with an estimated 180,000,000 taxable units and the estimated 13100 per person) and you get $2.358 TRILLION.

At 11/12/12 12:42 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Make that 12800 to match an estimated average nd you get 192 Billion. That's a HUGE pill to swallow just for realtively easy access to oil.

And these numbers are skewed extremely low as they measure per person, not per taxable unit.

At 11/9/12 12:08 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

First of all I'm gonna give you some credit, I was fully expecting a link to a youtube video, but you actually wrote out an opinion of yours. However, next time try and divide your long paragraphs into smaller ones. You can do this when a change in topic or expressed thought has occurred, it makes your writing easier to read and critique.

Ok now that I have mulled it over some more I remembered that "money" or more accurately "Legal Tender" is not owned by you or me it is owned by the Federal Reserve

Whoever physically possess a dollar owns it, it is really that simple.

:I guess the question I am trying to get at and maybe someone here knows the answer to is that what is the actual agreement and rights or EULA for lack of better word LOL to anyone that uses legal tender or Federal Reserve Notes as a means of currency ?

You are solidifying the dollar as a legal tender every time you spend one. It is us, the common citizen who eventually decides how much the value of a dollar.

:Me thinks we had better get back onto the "Gold Standard" or some form of new currency "Bitcoin" perhaps that puts the people back into power and far away from oppression.

You see, getting off the gold standard actually put the common people in power. This idea is backed by the ratio of #of citizens in a currency bearing country(s) to the amount of precious metal backing the currency (#citizens:total metal mass). Simply, the dollar cannot be back by any precious metal, because the value of one dollar would be extravagant, with only the extremely wealthy able to participate in trade. So as you can see, getting off of the gold standard was liberating for the common citizen.

If you main concern for fiat money is its legitimacy because its not backed by a precious metal, then you'd might argue for this approach. Currency can potentially be back by a slew of precious and semiprecious metals, such as copper, aluminum, nickel, etc. The extreme downside of this is by stockpiling these metals, they would not be able to be used in production of goods that are composed of these metals. So you'd expect a huge spike in the cost of plumbing materials, cars, power tools, etc. Also, keep in mind that the world's population is only about halfway done growing, so eventually these metals will become limited once again.

At 11/12/12 10:13 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 11/12/12 12:59 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: See the problem here is that when I get my ass taxed it's taking food off my table and decreasing my level of health and quality of life

Welcome to being an adult in modern society. Sucks, doesn't it?

Your reality not mine. Being an Adult does not include paying illegal taxes levies well if you live in US it does unless you can survive with the big dogs in the pen. You want to talk about being a responsible adult and man than stop paying your share of the illegal tax levies and do your time and you will find out who the real men are. Paying taxes are what the lazy do just to stay out of the discomfort zone.

Your perfect system is going to falter in short order, and the quality of your "free" healthcare will soon suffer to the point that the doctor will hand you Robitussin and kick your ass out the door sooner than treat you.

Stopped reading there as there is no such thing as perfect only better. To be perfect is to not exist or rather to be perfect was past tense.

especially when you consider a Corporation is not even a Human Being to begin with so no harm done just maximum goodness for all parties involved.

A corporation is comprised of human beings, all of whom are responsible for the actions of the company and all of whom would easily withdraw their consent to pay taxes. As such, it would be immoral to tax them or benefit from programs paid for by taxes levied.

A Corporation is not a human being in fact a Corporation is it's own legal entity like a human being but it is not a Human being which is where is lye's the corruption. If you don't think the USA is infallible and it is the best then I urge you to look at the nation and public debt and the statistics that prove otherwise.

At 11/12/12 01:51 PM, Saen wrote:

At 11/9/12 12:08 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

First of all I'm gonna give you some credit, I was fully expecting a link to a youtube video, but you actually wrote out an opinion of yours.

It's not an opinion when it was A) Based on Fact and B) asking questions to an unknown answers.

Ok now that I have mulled it over some more I remembered that "money" or more accurately "Legal Tender" is not owned by you or me it is owned by the Federal Reserve

Whoever physically possess a dollar owns it, it is really that simple.

I beg to differ and this was where Ron Paul was onto something believe it or not LOL. The Fed owns the money which is why it is not regulated and owned by the people and why the national and personal debt level are a mathematical joke. Ending the Fed will to a great extent put to people back in power because then the money they earn will in fact be money they own and more impotently the money will be worth more than less than nothing.

You are solidifying the dollar as a legal tender every time you spend one. It is us, the common citizen who eventually decides how much the value of a dollar.

First part of your sentence is correct. The second is moist defiantly not correct as men like Ben Bernanke decide what the dollar is worth not the people.

You see, getting off the gold standard actually put the common people in power.

LOL do you work for the Bank and or Wall Street.

If you main concern for fiat money is its legitimacy because its not backed by a precious metal, then you'd might argue for this approach.

No the main concern for currency without going into unnecessary complexity about the particulars as it stands is that it is not owned and regulated by the people plus add to the fact that every dollar that goes into circulation has a debt automatically attached to it that goes on the shoulders of the people that it was just supposed to sever as a form of currency to begin with not debt.

At 11/12/12 12:42 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Here's some rough math to throw out there, for fun.

Let's say that there are 15,000,000 tax paying units in Canada (couting married filing jointly ouples as one, and not counting all below 18 youth) who pay an average of a measly 1,000 a year. That's 15 Billion that needs to be made up. Let's bump that to a more likely 10,000 a year, and you get 150 Billion a year. Make that 12800 to match an estimated average nd you get 192 Billion. That's a HUGE pill to swallow just for realtively easy access to oil.

Take the numbers to the US (with an estimated 180,000,000 taxable units and the estimated 13100 per person) and you get $2.358 TRILLION.

Or we could just abolish debt based monetary system and those numbers would have never existed. Hey look you pulled big numbers out your ass just like the banks and Fed do.

At 11/12/12 10:45 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 11/12/12 10:13 AM, Proteas wrote:

whereas the Big Corps with all the money can easily afford to give without sacrificing anything. In reality by way of big Corps giving back money for social programs and infrastructure it would actually be extremely beneficial for society as a whole and enable people to become healthier and more productive workers as well as empowered self sufficient human beings

Whats short sighted is the fact that you think that the Big Corporations will not be rewarded and recognized for footing the Bill for a whole Countries infrastructure etc.

Health care used to be free but that was many years ago. The debt was just moved onto the next generations collective head. Blame inflation blame the fed and blame a debt/tax based fiat currency but don't blame me for just stating the blatantly obvious.

Come, follow me, into the depths of this thread and into leanlifter's mind. Take the red pill. Find out just how far the rabbit hole really goes.

At 11/12/12 04:39 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Your reality not mine.

Oops! I forgot, you live in poxpower world, where you are the Lizard King and everything works simply because you say it does, fuck logic.

How's that workin' for you?

You want to talk about being a responsible adult and man than stop paying your share of the illegal tax levies and do your time and you will find out who the real men are.

I'm not the one sitting here complaining about supposedly "illegal" taxes, you are. So, you consciously put forth the effort to refuse to pay your taxes, and you go to prison, first.

Paying taxes are what the lazy do just to stay out of the discomfort zone.

No, paying taxes is what reasonable people do in order to have the basic services that keep society running. Of course, you won't have to worry about basic services or society when you're somebody's girlfriend in prison (your little Maddox ripoff site won't count for much there), but at least we won't have to put up with your inane garbage anymore.

Stopped reading there as there is no such thing as perfect only better. To be perfect is to not exist or rather to be perfect was past tense.

Okay, your "better" system is going to falter in short order, and the quality of your "free" healthcare will soon suffer to the point that the doctor will hand you Robitussin and kick your ass out the door sooner than treat you.

Oh, and big businesses will laugh in your face at the very idea that they'll do business in Canada.

A Corporation is not a human being in fact a Corporation is it's own legal entity like a human being but it is not a Human being which is where is lye's the corruption.

A corporation has a board of directors who decide where and when the corporation will do do business with whom. If they don't want the corporation to pay the insane taxes you levy in order to keep your system going because the rest of the population is no longer paying taxes, there are 195 other countries in the world they can go do business with.

If you don't think the USA is infallible and it is the best then I urge you to look at the nation and public debt and the statistics that prove otherwise.

I never claimed the U.S. was perfect, just better than the system you're trying to create. >:-D~

At 11/12/12 06:49 PM, Proteas wrote:

I never claimed the U.S. was perfect, just better than the system you're trying to create. >:-D~

I am not part of your False dichotomies in fact I have never even attempted to create a system and that's not my intent more so the points I have effectively brought to light outline some of the many fallacies of the American empire and as well many/most other fallen and concurrent empires to be fair.

If you were to talk a poll of our species asking what truly are the most fundamental aspects that pertain to human survival and prosperity such as what really supports human life, how food grows, what energy is, what creates and reinforces good public health, what defines a useful or detrimental belief system. You can rest assured that most people would have more concrete answers about baseball statistics, fashion trends, sitcom plots, and religious scriptures.

The fundamental fallacy of our system is the psychology's that are supported rewarded and enabled.

At 11/12/12 12:27 PM, Proteas wrote:

At 11/12/12 10:45 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Proteas in this above paragraph, one incentive to be here here in Canada, is our natural resources ...you can't go to India to save money on costs to produce oil in Alberta or Newfoundland !

I'm talking about a financial incentive, not the incentive or inexpensive resources. How much of a budget shortfall would occur in your system if the general populace didn't have to pay taxes anymore? How much would big business' taxes have to increase to compensate for that budget shortfal so as to ensure the same level of healthcare and quality of utilities?

;;;
Hey Proteas, I can't find the right link , but I read a clip where in this country, a past Government & several sincethen ....borrowed money form the Big Canadian Bvanks ...I have no idea why
I figure it was to pad their retirement from politics , so big paying jobs would be waiting.
Because in Canada the Bank of Canada is owned by the people & under the control of the Ruling Parties Fianace Minister. That Bank can loan money to the Government for ridiculous to no interest ...yet we own billions to our main Privately owned Banks & to service that debt is around 35-40 Billion a year roughly what the country takes in for income tax.

So without that debt we could cut out income tax and as long as the Hst & the other Taxes charged continued ...we'd see little or no loss !

Kinda scary when you think about it & its the reason why in every city the largest buildings are always banks !

At 11/12/12 08:07 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

Hey Proteas, I can't find the right link , but I read a clip where in this country, a past Government & several sincethen ....borrowed money form the Big Canadian Bvanks ...I have no idea why

The Government and Banks are not even using "The Bank of Canada" like they should be they are getting outsourced funds from some German creditor but I can't remember exactly the name I will look it up and post the info when I remember where I cited the info.