Questions about mixing

[Step]

If there's one music-related thing I don't know much about, it's mixing, and if, after 3+ years of making music, I barely know more about mixing than I knew when I started, clearly there's a problem.

So, what confuses me the most about mixing is how we're supposed to "mix everything under the 0 dB limit". Let me see if I got this straight: 0 dB is some sort of limit that the waveform of our songs must abide to. If we skip 0 dB, the waveform "peaks" and the top part of the waveform (the part which skipped the 0 dB limit) is cut off. This produces distortion and the more of the waveform is cut off, the more distortion there is, otherwise known as clipping.

Is what I'm saying correct? If so, why would they call the limit 0 dB? I thought 0 dB was nearly absolute silence in reality.

Last question: Is it bad if our songs skip the 0 dB limit? I see it happen to my songs all the time, but I never hear any clipping unless I turn the volume up to ridiculous amounts.

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers.

[Step]

I already checked there. Both of the mixing tutorials have broken links.

[Step]

Join the club.

So, any help? :3.

[PSvils]

If you use FL Studio, you won't hear clipping, and technically there won't be any. This is because FL Studio uses 32 bit processing (Or I think it might even be 64 bit, not sure).
When storing a waveform in 16bit or 24bit .wav files, you only have 16/24 bits in which to store a number representing the volume at a certain point. Which means if your song is louder than that point, the format can't physically save the actual volume, and so it cuts off at the max.
32 bit wave format solves this, because it keeps the 24 bit value, plus an 8 bit ratio, which means that if the volume is louder than the 24 bit max, it just stores a multiplier in the other 8 bits, and then the waveform can be reconstructed even if the volume is louder than 24 bits allows.

Understanding the above is easier if you're a programmer I guess...

Now, for mixing, if your track peaks over 0 dB, then just turn down the master volume. Of course, this will make your track very quiet. That's where mastering comes into play (though to do good mastering, you need to have very good mixing).
My mastering process is I export my mix as a 32 bit wave (so you don't need to worry about clipping), and then import it into a new project. Here, I select "normalize" in the Sampler (using FL Studio), which means that it sets the loudest point in the audio clip to 0dB, and the rest accordingly. Then, I have an EQ which cuts the super lows and super highs, and a compressor and multiband compressor.
Look up FL Studio mastering tutorials to learn more about compression, but that's what's key; compressing your mix so that it seems louder, but doesn't get the mushy mushy feel of too much compression.

If you're looking for mixing advice specifically, then it's all about controlling frequencies (using the EQ on tracks), and with that comes Sidechaining (real life saver). Something I do to bring my bass sounds out is multiband process them; fancy words for simply splitting the signal into 2 bands, on below 100hz or so, and another above. Then I sidechain my kick to the low end signal pretty heavily, and sometimes I sidechain the high end to my snare. This brings out the percussion way more without losing too much from the overall bass sound.

I'm all over the place with this post, but I hope you got a few ideas from it. If you don't know how to sidechain, then a simple google search should turn up lots of results (Though there might be tutorials on using sidechain as an effect rather than a mixing technique).

Oh, and never put any fx on your master channel. None, no compressor, no limiter. When doing the initial mix, do NOT worry about the loudness of the overall mix, that comes with mastering. Important thing with mixing is making sure nothing sounds muddy, and that there isn't any/much clashing between instrumentos.

P.

[Buoy]

At 10/24/11 01:48 PM, Supersteph54 wrote: Is what I'm saying correct?

Yes. You're talking about dBFS.

If so, why would they call the limit 0 dB?

Because we always measure the level of a digital signal relative to the maximum possible value. See link above.

(there is no actual minimum level of sound in the digital realm. There is a point where there exists no lower value (called the noise floor), but you can increase the bit depth indefinitely to make that value lower and lower. if you want me to clarify, I'll try)

Secondly, the actual sound pressure created by your system is independent of the level of your audio file. Think about it like this: how would you make an audio file that always makes a noise with a sound pressure of 40dB?

I thought 0 dB was nearly absolute silence in reality.

dBSPL "starts" at 0dB because there is a minimum level of sound but no theoretical maximum level. You may want to read up on the definition of decibel, it's not just a "unit of volume".

Last question: Is it bad if our songs skip the 0 dB limit?

Yes, always. If it happens, mix at a lower volume.

[Buoy]

At 10/24/11 02:57 PM, SBB wrote: dBSPL

goddamnit leeroy

[Step]

Thanks for the mixing tips, PSvils.

At 10/24/11 02:57 PM, SBB wrote: dBSPL "starts" at 0dB because there is a minimum level of sound but no theoretical maximum level. You may want to read up on the definition of decibel, it's not just a "unit of volume".

Before making this thread I did. What I found was that 0 dB was the threshold which is nearly complete silence, and ten times that amount of volume is 10 dB, 100 times that amount is 20 dB, 1000 times that amount is 30 dB, etc...

Or maybe I understood it wrongly, I just skimmed through it.

Yes, always. If it happens, mix at a lower volume.

Wow that's bad. All the songs I've ever made skip 0 dB constantly. Whenever I turn the volume down to stop any peaking, the mix becomes too quiet and I have to turn my computer's volume up to hear the song properly. And whenever I add a compressor, the song loses its dynamics. I guess I have a lot to learn then :c.

Thanks for the help!

[Buoy]

At 10/24/11 04:47 PM, Supersteph54 wrote: Before making this thread I did. What I found was that 0 dB was the threshold which is nearly complete silence, and ten times that amount of volume is 10 dB, 100 times that amount is 20 dB, 1000 times that amount is 30 dB, etc...

Well, in terms of sound pressure, that is true. I think the most important thing to remember is that if you have say a 40dB noise and then a 50dB noise, the sound pressure of the second noise is ten times as powerful as the first. It wouldn't really be correct to call it ten times as loud, however - you don't perceive a 10dB increase as a 10x increase of the volume, cause our hearing is logarithmic. So if you increase the sound pressure by say one dB per second, you'll perceive the volume as increasing linearly, not exponentially.

The reason I suggested you read up on it is that decibel is just as often used for voltages and currents and all sorts of other things. As such, there are various "types" of decibels which are not interchangeable. Like dBSPL and dbFS

(a value given in decibels is really just a ratio, a measure of how powerful / intense something is relative to another thing.)

Wow that's bad. All the songs I've ever made skip 0 dB constantly. Whenever I turn the volume down to stop any peaking, the mix becomes too quiet and I have to turn my computer's volume up to hear the song properly. And whenever I add a compressor, the song loses its dynamics. I guess I have a lot to learn then :c.

Dunno what that is about, maybe you should ask the FL Studio thread. It is far more quiet than your regular audio portal song?

[jpbear]

Looking back at your OP, my response is a bit unnecessary, but this is my rather rational explanation of why clipping is bad ^.^

Clipping is more of a blessing than a curse imo, because it keeps music "sane",

The usual reason songs clip is because of frequencies between different sounds in your song are colliding (volume aside). IF they collide to the point of clipping your song has too much going on at a particular frequency and will not only get distorted/limited, but more importantly come off as cluttered to your listener.

[Buoy]

At 10/24/11 05:30 PM, jpbear wrote: The usual reason songs clip is because of frequencies between different sounds in your song are colliding (volume aside). IF they collide to the point of clipping your song has too much going on at a particular frequency and will not only get distorted/limited, but more importantly come off as cluttered to your listener.

I've experienced clipping due to super-resonant filters and phasing effects (which can generate huge narrow EQ boosts if you're not careful). Never just because of a crappy mix/clashing instruments.

[PSvils]

At 10/24/11 04:47 PM, Supersteph54 wrote: Wow that's bad. All the songs I've ever made skip 0 dB constantly. Whenever I turn the volume down to stop any peaking, the mix becomes too quiet and I have to turn my computer's volume up to hear the song properly. And whenever I add a compressor, the song loses its dynamics. I guess I have a lot to learn then :c.

This is where what I was talking about comes into play.

And yes, when lowering the volume, you usually want to turn up the volume of your soundcard to hear things...only natural...

And learn the art of the multiband compressor.

[sculpted-cold]

Regarding clipping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCd6MHlo_
iA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVF9vRLy Vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPwni7yvS Qc

[Birdinator99]

At 10/24/11 02:21 PM, PSvils wrote: Oh, and never put any fx on your master channel. None, no compressor, no limiter. When doing the initial mix, do NOT worry about the loudness of the overall mix, that comes with mastering. Important thing with mixing is making sure nothing sounds muddy, and that there isn't any/much clashing between instrumentos.

Damnit, that's how I do it. I tried exporting my mix by itself (no master FX) to master it in a separate project file one time, but when I listened to the exported, untouched mix first, it sounded worse than when it was in the original project file. I thought that adding any processing at that point might mess it up further, so I stopped right there. Should I be exporting my mix differently?

[midimachine]

At 10/24/11 02:21 PM, PSvils wrote: If you use FL Studio, you won't hear clipping, and technically there won't be any. This is because FL Studio uses 32 bit processing (Or I think it might even be 64 bit, not sure).

Do you use FL? Clipping can be heard and does occur the very moment you start pushing over 0dB. Throw down a loud sub bass and push the master up, you'll hear it clear as day.

[Tydusis]

Well, this might not count as mastering per say, but if you use a tracker to make your song, you can export each channel or instrument as a separate wave file then import all of those waves into something like Soundbooth and combine them into a multitrack file. This allows for adjustment of the volume levels only where it clips and independently of the master volume. And you can apply after effects and such. Downside is that this process is a HDD eater. Over a gig of waveforms for ~4 minutes and only 20 channels, and the creation of the multitrack doubles that. But the amount of fine control it gives is worth it.

I'm not sure if this can apply to non-tracker software, and I've only done this once, but it did improve general clarity and de-muddied the bass.

[jarrydn]

At 10/24/11 02:21 PM, PSvils wrote: Oh, and never put any fx on your master channel. None, no compressor, no limiter. When doing the initial mix, do NOT worry about the loudness of the overall mix, that comes with mastering. Important thing with mixing is making sure nothing sounds muddy, and that there isn't any/much clashing between instrumentos.

P.

Try telling that to French house!

Personally I don't understand the fuss over effects on the master channel. If it's integral to your sound, why would you feel compelled to remove them? A good mastering engineer will not noticeably modify the dynamics of your track, so if you want that tasty french sound, you will have to do that yourself. Doesn't mean you need to go and clip the hell out of your song...you can still totally mix-down to whatever peak amplitude the mastering engineer would prefer.

[jpbear]

At 10/25/11 12:08 AM, jarrydn wrote:
Try telling that to French house!

Personally I don't understand the fuss over effects on the master channel. If it's integral to your sound, why would you feel compelled to remove them? A good mastering engineer will not noticeably modify the dynamics of your track, so if you want that tasty french sound, you will have to do that yourself. Doesn't mean you need to go and clip the hell out of your song...you can still totally mix-down to whatever peak amplitude the mastering engineer would prefer.

I'll make tracks with a multi-bus compressor on the master on occasion, and I know how to keep my levels down while having a compressed master either way.

If your gonna have a loud ass heavy track, its handy that you dont have to worry to much about your mix changing too much after a master multi bus.

[PSvils]

At 10/24/11 07:08 PM, midimachine wrote: Do you use FL? Clipping can be heard and does occur the very moment you start pushing over 0dB. Throw down a loud sub bass and push the master up, you'll hear it clear as day.

The clipping happens in your soundcard/somewhere else. I know that in the end it doesn't make much difference, but the point is FL Studio can still handle sounds over that threshold (Which is why you can see the signal going over the 0db line in the first place, otherwise the db meter would max out at 0db).

[PSvils]

At 10/25/11 12:08 AM, jarrydn wrote:

At 10/24/11 02:21 PM, PSvils wrote: Oh, and never put any fx on your master channel. None, no compressor, no limiter. When doing the initial mix, do NOT worry about the loudness of the overall mix, that comes with mastering. Important thing with mixing is making sure nothing sounds muddy, and that there isn't any/much clashing between instrumentos.

P.

Try telling that to French house!

Personally I don't understand the fuss over effects on the master channel. If it's integral to your sound, why would you feel compelled to remove them? A good mastering engineer will not noticeably modify the dynamics of your track, so if you want that tasty french sound, you will have to do that yourself. Doesn't mean you need to go and clip the hell out of your song...you can still totally mix-down to whatever peak amplitude the mastering engineer would prefer.

It all comes down to preference (like with anything in the world really...), but I was taught in the school of no-fx-on-master-buses, and so that's the only way I can comfortably work now. Otherwise, with a compressor sitting on the master bus, I feel like I'm not hearing the real sound.
I guess I just consider it good practice, and it helps keep my thoughts organized in getting the levels and sound right, and then only after getting the mix loud.
(Plus my CPU can't usually handle additional mastering fx on the master bus after I'm done with a track anyways)

Meeeh.

At 10/24/11 06:46 PM, Birdinator99 wrote: Damnit, that's how I do it. I tried exporting my mix by itself (no master FX) to master it in a separate project file one time, but when I listened to the exported, untouched mix first, it sounded worse than when it was in the original project file. I thought that adding any processing at that point might mess it up further, so I stopped right there. Should I be exporting my mix differently?

Did you export it as 32-bit wave? It might also just sound "worse" because you're used to a specific overall sound. That happens to me sometimes, and when I go to mastering, it sounds a bit different, but after mastering you should be able to get it sounding better than the original. If it sounds bad in the new project, then defs try adding more processing (my typical stack is EQ, Compressor, Multiband Compressor, EQ, Limiter).

And don't worry about fucking up. Mastering is always a work in progress, after a few tracks of twiddling knobs you should already start getting a better feel of it.

P.

[midimachine]

At 10/25/11 04:37 AM, PSvils wrote: The clipping happens in your soundcard/somewhere else. I know that in the end it doesn't make much difference, but the point is FL Studio can still handle sounds over that threshold (Which is why you can see the signal going over the 0db line in the first place, otherwise the db meter would max out at 0db).

Okay, but it's not very helpful for the OP to give so much credence to semantics.

[PSvils]

At 10/25/11 07:39 AM, midimachine wrote: Okay, but it's not very helpful for the OP to give so much credence to semantics.

Yikes, I was just giving background info. Every little bit helps.

[joshhunsaker]

At 10/24/11 02:57 PM, SBB wrote: dBSPL "starts" at 0dB because there is a minimum level of sound but no theoretical maximum level.

Theoretical limit for undistorted sound at 1 ATM is 194db...

[Mrmilkcarton]

A guide to mixing music, mostly electronic but same ideas still apply.

[Buoy]

At 10/25/11 11:36 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:

At 10/24/11 02:57 PM, SBB wrote: dBSPL "starts" at 0dB because there is a minimum level of sound but no theoretical maximum level.

Theoretical limit for undistorted sound at 1 ATM is 194db...

yeah, at 1 ATM

[midimachine]

At 10/25/11 11:36 AM, joshhunsaker wrote: Theoretical limit for undistorted sound at 1 ATM is 194db...

Okay, but it's not very helpful for the OP to... whoa, deja vu!

[PSvils]

At 10/25/11 06:33 PM, midimachine wrote:

At 10/25/11 11:36 AM, joshhunsaker wrote: Theoretical limit for undistorted sound at 1 ATM is 194db...

Okay, but it's not very helpful for the OP to... whoa, deja vu!

Let the OP decide what's important to him, I don't think your comments are particularly helpful either...

And yes, this post is a tad hypocritical

[midimachine]

Nope, I'm the usefulness police.

[sugarsimon]

mixing and mastering give up the music and also in the software

[midimachine]

At 10/26/11 03:22 AM, sugarsimon wrote: mixing and mastering give up the music and also in the software

/thread

[jpbear]

At 10/26/11 03:22 AM, sugarsimon wrote: mixing and mastering give up the music and also in the software

Must........ decipher............... meaning..............................