At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: God (by definition) possesses every possible perfection. The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence). Something that is perfect cannot occur by chance (by infinitesimal probability). Therefore god exists.

I'll rephrase that,

Because the universe is infinite (and therefor a perfect), it had to have been created, because something that is infinite like our universe has an infinitely small chance of happening by chance which means it cannot happen by chance at all. This means that the universe was created which is by definition what god is.

This proof is flawless. It's my response to all the stupid God is fake crap.

Any Questions?

While I agree with your view (under the assumption you're being ANY type of serious) that reasoning is so flawed as to only empower those who disprove it.

At 10/5/07 09:54 PM, Vousielle wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:47 PM, Frattochino wrote: Religion is like the telephone game

You sir, win a theological cookie.

despite you making fun of me, i lol'd SO hard.

also Everything that does exist is infinite, Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Energy = Matter

Existence = Matter. (excluding dark matter)

im still atheists through and through

Rather than repost it, if anybody really wants to know how I feel about the universe, pop in and read this.

At 10/5/07 09:30 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:23 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote: I love pointing out flaws.

There is no proof that the universe is infinite. Therefore, your statement is now a theory, which means I proved you wrong.

Can I have a cookie now?

Ah but the universe is indefinitely infinite in time space. Infinite simply means having no end, and since the universe progresses infinitely through time space it by definition has no end. Because we ultimately define the the universe as the state of existence, the universe is infinite in this definition. Rather or not the universe is physically infinite is redundant to this argument.

Oh, so you want a battle of the wits, then? Well, I accept.

Has it been proven that the universe travels infinitely through time space? No. There could be an end. We have no idea. Also, the universe is not defined as the state of existence. It might be defined as the place of existence, but not the state.

Ahh but there is another catch to the time space argument. You see our universe contain matter. According to Einstine's theory of relativity this matter came from energy which came from matter which came from energy ect... in a series of Big bang, great crush reactions that data back infinitely in time. If this is true than the universe does travel infinitely through time space.

Alternatively (and this i doubt) it could be that time space is not infinite, in which case the matter, or energy would have to be created. Again using the same definition of god this also proves god exists. (This was actually the early catholic belief of how the universe was created tough based off modern discoveries it seems highly unlikely).

As for the sate of existence I think your confusing state of existence with presence of matter. Existence is anywhere that matter or energy can exist and since it is established that space can contain both matter and energy the universe most certainly can be defined as a state of existence.

At 10/5/07 10:05 PM, Vousielle wrote: Rather than repost it, if anybody really wants to know how I feel about the universe, pop in and read this.

I read your post and you are absolutely right. I think alot of people missed the point so I'll state it agein.

The point I trying to prove is that you can't define god, and that all the religious debate that go on here on the forum are really pointless since they are based of definitions that have no marret what-so-ever. As I said this is my response to the whole "God is fake crap"

The last point is that I think it's stupid how alot of religions fight of stupid details of their faiths when in truth the all share the same important beliefs.

At 10/5/07 10:08 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:
Ahh but there is another catch to the time space argument. You see our universe contain matter. According to Einstine's theory of relativity this matter came from energy which came from matter which came from energy ect... in a series of Big bang, great crush reactions that data back infinitely in time. If this is true than the universe does travel infinitely through time space.

I think you have that wrong. In my physics class, it was taught that energy was transfered through matter. More specifically, matter cannot be created or destroyed. Matter can be changed, and energy can be transferred, but neither can be created or destroyed. Also, your matter-energy loop could have a beginning and an end.

Alternatively (and this i doubt) it could be that time space is not infinite, in which case the matter, or energy would have to be created. Again using the same definition of god this also proves god exists. (This was actually the early catholic belief of how the universe was created tough based off modern discoveries it seems highly unlikely).

Well, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

As for the sate of existence I think your confusing state of existence with presence of matter. Existence is anywhere that matter or energy can exist and since it is established that space can contain both matter and energy the universe most certainly can be defined as a state of existence.

No, I am not confusing the two. State of existence would be similar to state of matter. It would be how something exists, not where.

At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence).

So since I exist, I'm God?

I'ma gonna smite youz!

You cannot use logic to prove religion. The difference between philosphy and religion is that religion answers the fundamental questions with faith, and philosophy uses logic. There is no logical way to prove the existance of a god because he obviously doesnt exist in our universe. If he did exist, he would do so outside our plane, and all of its laws and reasoning. Therefore logic cannot prove god.

At 10/5/07 10:19 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote: I think you have that wrong. In my physics class, it was taught that energy was transfered through matter. More specifically, matter cannot be created or destroyed. Matter can be changed, and energy can be transferred, but neither can be created or destroyed. Also, your matter-energy loop could have a beginning and an end.

Alternatively (and this i doubt) it could be that time space is not infinite, in which case the matter, or energy would have to be created. Again using the same definition of god this also proves god exists. (This was actually the early catholic belief of how the universe was created tough based off modern discoveries it seems highly unlikely).

Well, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Alright than if what you say is true and matter and energy cannot be created and time space is not infinite than how is it that matter and energy exist at all. The principle you based your second argument on contradicts your first argument. I think the big bang theory is pretty much establish, all but proven and that would mean time space is infinite, since our position in time space is relative to the beginning, and if the beginning is infinite than the end is too.

As for the sate of existence I think your confusing state of existence with presence of matter. Existence is anywhere that matter or energy can exist and since it is established that space can contain both matter and energy the universe most certainly can be defined as a state of existence.

No, I am not confusing the two. State of existence would be similar to state of matter. It would be how something exists, not where.

State of matter has nothing to do with state of existence (at least not in this context), State of matter and State of existence are two different concepts with two completely different applications.

At 10/5/07 10:27 PM, Prinzy2 wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence).

So since I exist, I'm God?

I'ma gonna smite youz!

Im in ur universe, smitin' ur doodz?

Religion is just as much of a business and Walmart is. Frankly, I don't trust business men, that's why I'm not faithful.

What I'm trying to say is, quit flaunting your christianity, because there are 2 billion of you, and you're nothing special.

At 10/5/07 10:27 PM, 3tard wrote: You cannot use logic to prove religion. The difference between philosphy and religion is that religion answers the fundamental questions with faith, and philosophy uses logic. There is no logical way to prove the existance of a god because he obviously doesnt exist in our universe. If he did exist, he would do so outside our plane, and all of its laws and reasoning. Therefore logic cannot prove god.

No, Science is just answering questions with perspective, anything we cannot see or sense does not exist according to science, whereas Religion thinks outside the box with ideas that we indeed cannot sense or see, but both are flawed.

At 10/5/07 10:27 PM, 3tard wrote: You cannot use logic to prove religion. The difference between philosphy and religion is that religion answers the fundamental questions with faith, and philosophy uses logic. There is no logical way to prove the existance of a god because he obviously doesnt exist in our universe. If he did exist, he would do so outside our plane, and all of its laws and reasoning. Therefore logic cannot prove god.

You are right about that. I order to prove something with logic the concept need to be clearly defined, and the religious definitions of god are anything but clear.

The truth is that even though this proof is flawless it says very littel. The fact is that we as humans lack the intelligence or ability to define god, and so here God is stated simply as the nature of existance, which of course exists. It doesn't actually say anything about what god is or any of the trivial details most religions obsess themselves with.

So basically this proves that there is a design, though not necessarily an "intelligent Design" per say.

I have to say I am actualy very happy with the number of intelectual responeces we've gotten here. At first I was worried this thread whould end up like all the other threads about religon, glad that hasen't happened.

At 10/5/07 10:40 PM, Frattochino wrote: No, Science is just answering questions with perspective, anything we cannot see or sense does not exist according to science, whereas Religion thinks outside the box with ideas that we indeed cannot sense or see, but both are flawed.

I dissagree there, science is a way of thinking. It only applies to empirical data, not ideas.

At 10/5/07 10:37 PM, Kazzar wrote: Religion is just as much of a business and Walmart is. Frankly, I don't trust business men, that's why I'm not faithful.

What I'm trying to say is, quit flaunting your christianity, because there are 2 billion of you, and you're nothing special.

What makes you think I'm christian?

i dont get it but GOD IS REAL

At 10/5/07 10:45 PM, mikel33405 wrote: i dont get it but GOD IS REAL

Shhhhhh..... just listen t the grown-ups talk

At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: God (by definition) possesses every possible perfection. The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence). Something that is perfect cannot occur by chance (by infinitesimal probability). Therefore god exists.

I'll rephrase that,

Because the universe is infinite (and therefor a perfect), it had to have been created, because something that is infinite like our universe has an infinitely small chance of happening by chance which means it cannot happen by chance at all. This means that the universe was created which is by definition what god is.

God does not exist because there is absolutely no proof of his existence. Your so called "proof" was basically stating the definition of words. There is no being. The thing about these "perfects" and the univers being a perfect is all based on the bible. Because you probably read it from the bible, you think that everything is created by god, making it perfect. The bible is a myth, so much like the greek myths, all explaining how things were made and how they are.

Your deluded to think that something created something else. Only a natural substance can creat itself. Trees grow by themselves, the earth forms land by itself.

I can't believe you think illogical. Nothing exists unless if we are sure of it. In order to be sure, you have to see it. If there is a rational explanation to why God doesn;t exist, it;s only to fool you even further. "God doesn't show himself to anyone." Why? Those who say that they talk to god are probably suffering from schitzophrania. I;m not an atheist, I just follow logic.

There has to be a god or a superior being.
God is suposed to be perfect.
For something to exist there has to be something that made that or created that.
for example if the computer exists it's because long ago there was more simpler things that led to it like the calculator.
For someone to exist he/she had to be created by someone.
example, parents.\
the design of something is made to fit the necesities or structure of a being, that's why we are god's best creation since we are made (suposedly) in god's image

but there is a flaw.
some say that since god is perfect he is the "main source" of everything and therefore has no ancestors.
but if for something to exist there has to be a creator then who created god?
Filosofers discuss this theory to this day.

At 10/5/07 10:43 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

At 10/5/07 10:37 PM, Kazzar wrote: Religion is just as much of a business and Walmart is. Frankly, I don't trust business men, that's why I'm not faithful.

What I'm trying to say is, quit flaunting your christianity, because there are 2 billion of you, and you're nothing special.

What makes you think I'm christian?

I'm not talking to you in specific. I would have quoted. I'm talking to all of the fundies out there. I should have made it clearer, I know.

Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

At 10/5/07 11:07 PM, Z-e-r-o wrote: Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

Okay Tom Cruise.

At 10/5/07 10:56 PM, AndrewRoss wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: God (by definition) possesses every possible perfection. The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence). Something that is perfect cannot occur by chance (by infinitesimal probability). Therefore god exists.

I'll rephrase that,

Because the universe is infinite (and therefor a perfect), it had to have been created, because something that is infinite like our universe has an infinitely small chance of happening by chance which means it cannot happen by chance at all. This means that the universe was created which is by definition what god is.

God does not exist because there is absolutely no proof of his existence. Your so called "proof" was basically stating the definition of words. There is no being. The thing about these "perfects" and the univers being a perfect is all based on the bible. Because you probably read it from the bible, you think that everything is created by god, making it perfect. The bible is a myth, so much like the greek myths, all explaining how things were made and how they are.

Your deluded to think that something created something else. Only a natural substance can creat itself. Trees grow by themselves, the earth forms land by itself.

I can't believe you think illogical. Nothing exists unless if we are sure of it. In order to be sure, you have to see it. If there is a rational explanation to why God doesn;t exist, it;s only to fool you even further. "God doesn't show himself to anyone." Why? Those who say that they talk to god are probably suffering from schitzophrania. I;m not an atheist, I just follow logic.

This is called thinking inside a very small box, and you missed the point completely. The laws of physics exist even though we cannot see them. God is not necessarily a person or physical being at all. The existence of god is simply based of the design of the universe and existence itself for that matter. This just proves that their is some form of design to the universe. The details are up to you to decide since as humans we lack the ability to define god's actual state of being.

At 10/5/07 10:58 PM, Daneximuz wrote: There has to be a god or a superior being.
God is suposed to be perfect.
For something to exist there has to be something that made that or created that.
for example if the computer exists it's because long ago there was more simpler things that led to it like the calculator.
For someone to exist he/she had to be created by someone.
example, parents.\
the design of something is made to fit the necesities or structure of a being, that's why we are god's best creation since we are made (suposedly) in god's image

but there is a flaw.
some say that since god is perfect he is the "main source" of everything and therefore has no ancestors.
but if for something to exist there has to be a creator then who created god?
Filosofers discuss this theory to this day.

he/she? I'm pretty sure that god is a bit above the whole gender concept. Also you misunderstood the definition, god is the existence of ALL perfections, god itself is infinite by that same principle and thus perfect as well. Again this proof isn't much for details, because as humans we lack the ability to define the detail of god. God is a higher state of existence, not even necessarily a conscious being. Some would argue that the universe itself is god, and they very well may me right too.

At 10/5/07 11:25 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: he/she? I'm pretty sure that god is a bit above the whole gender concept.

I said for SOMEONE to exist. I didn't say for GOD to exist.
please red carefully next time =)