Which is better?

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

Capitalism. Capitalism is necessary for the country. Communism only has empty promises. Capitalism also has more freedom.

Capitalism. Capitalism is necessary for the country.

Why? Which country?

Communism only has empty promises.

Why do you say that?

Capitalism also has more freedom.

Why do you say that?

I'm looking for a reasoned opinion here.

At 8/21/02 11:58 AM, Slizor wrote:

Capitalism. Capitalism is necessary for the country.

Why? Which country?

All.

Communism only has empty promises.

Why do you say that?

The former communistic countries have proven that it did not work. Their economy has been ruïned and now they have to recover.
And look at Cuba, too much money goes to Fidel Castro while it should be spend on improving the people's lives.

Capitalism also has more freedom.

Why do you say that?

When a communistic regime has been established the people are not allowed to criticize the governemt and the people cannot choose who leads the country. There is no freedom of free market economy either.

I'm looking for a reasoned opinion here.

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

I think it's your turn now to say what you prefer.

Why? Which country?

All.

Urm..what?

Communism only has empty promises.

Why do you say that?

The former communistic countries have proven that it did not work. Their economy has been ruïned and now they have to recover.

No, they have proven that their form of communism doesn't work, ie Stalinism. There is more than one form.

And look at Cuba, too much money goes to Fidel Castro while it should be spend on improving the people's lives.

It doesn't really help not eing allowed to trade.

Capitalism also has more freedom.

Why do you say that?

When a communistic regime has been established the people are not allowed to criticize the governemt and the people cannot choose who leads the country.

No that's a totalitarian regime, which is not an integeral part of Communist theory.

There is no freedom of free market economy either.

How is that a freedom?

I'm a Commie, plain and simple. Capitalism distributes wealth unequally and keeps a wealthy elite in power.

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

capitalism, because anyone that likes communism loves to take fat ones up the ass every day and asks for more

At 8/22/02 01:35 AM, FAT_MAN2k1 wrote:

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

capitalism, because anyone that likes communism loves to take fat ones up the ass every day and asks for more

Communism is a perfect ideology, sadly every time it is put into practice it is by some totalitarian nutjob like Stalin or Castro.

Communism is not by it's nature totalitarian and capitilism is not neccessarily libertarian. You can have totatlitarian capitilsts(*cough* George bush)
and you can have liberal communists. these are often confused.

I'd love to live in a properly implemented communist country, but unfortunatly people are too greedy and selfish to allow this to ever happen.

Communism is a perfect ideology, sadly every time it is put into practice it is by some totalitarian nutjob like Stalin or Castro.

I have not seen a communistic state that has worked yet, or shows freedom. People like Stalin and Castro ruïned it.
Until people are capable of making a communistic state work without taking away freedom, capatalism will have to be used.

At 8/21/02 09:42 AM, Slizor wrote: Which is better?

They both suck, bring back Feudalism!

Well, capitalism is better for all the countries in America. Communism has showed us it will never make a great nation.

At 8/24/02 01:07 PM, Fasz wrote: Well, capitalism is better for all the countries in America. Communism has showed us it will never make a great nation.

Actually, Communism helped China, and there never has been true communism. Most communist countries are fascist regimes, etc. Although I really don't see the point of communism due to the point that the world is unequal to begin with and trying to establish a equaliberium is just silly.

Communism would be better if it wasn't always totalitarian- for example, a communism with freedoms like the USA's. It's unfortunate that no one has made such a government.

At 8/25/02 06:38 PM, Baiwan_Fuong wrote:
I agree...Though communism helped China grow better for each person...I feel it's time for China to face the world as it's leader...out with the old Communism/capitalistic dictatorship and in with the liberal relaxed socialism...I feel it's the small businesses that help an nation...not those Evil Corperations...Then agian..,I don't mind Automoble corperations...as long as there's NO monoply...

Starbucks was a small coffee shop in seattle
Microsoft was a basement programming buisness in highschool
Ford started out as a garage hobby...
Dell was a college dorm side job
Ebay was a pez trading service

as you see they all started out as small companies and since they were so good and gained so much profit they turned into corpartions... but I can just say one thing about monopolies

Capitalism is better.

No, not because I'm some dumb "All American loving man that says America is the only thing that matters".

Capitalism is better because of a huge human aspect.

Greed

Had no human in the world have Greed, Capitalism wouldn't even be an ideology, it'd be a downright failure for anyone that tries it. But alas, men are greedy, and men want to get rich and live good lives over the expense of others.

Which is why Capitalism works, and Communism doesn't. Communism needs cooperation, and it needs honesty, but not even Governments can stay that good forever. Unless, Slizor, you can find a way that can make Government officials and the people stay civilized, humble, and honest... Communism just doesn't work.

At 8/27/02 12:30 AM, patach wrote: Capitalism is better.

No, not because I'm some dumb "All American loving man that says America is the only thing that matters".

Capitalism is better because of a huge human aspect.

Greed

Had no human in the world have Greed, Capitalism wouldn't even be an ideology, it'd be a downright failure for anyone that tries it. But alas, men are greedy, and men want to get rich and live good lives over the expense of others.

Which is why Capitalism works, and Communism doesn't. Communism needs cooperation, and it needs honesty, but not even Governments can stay that good forever. Unless, Slizor, you can find a way that can make Government officials and the people stay civilized, humble, and honest... Communism just doesn't work.

That's pretty how I feel. It seems Communism needs a police state system to function, because if you outlaw free trade, then people will find alternative ways of increasing their share of the people's wealth, i.e. bribery, corruption, the black market. When Gorbachev tried to give the people of the USSR more freedom, theft and the black market became a severe problem.

Also, China isn't really Communist anymore. Sure, its still got all the repression of its citizens and veneration of Chairman Mao, but it's become a mixed economy, creating corporations and a widening wealth disparity.

Capitalism is better because of a huge human aspect.

Greed

Had no human in the world have Greed, Capitalism wouldn't even be an ideology, it'd be a downright failure for anyone that tries it. But alas, men are greedy, and men want to get rich and live good lives over the expense of others.

Which is why Capitalism works, and Communism doesn't. Communism needs cooperation, and it needs honesty, but not even Governments can stay that good forever. Unless, Slizor, you can find a way that can make Government officials and the people stay civilized, humble, and honest... Communism just doesn't work.

I say that greed, well the mass culture of greed actually comes from Capitalism. When Capitalism is swept away, greed will go with it.

I say that greed, well the mass culture of greed actually comes from Capitalism. When Capitalism is swept away, greed will go with it.

Interesting point. However I do feel that greed is a part of human nature. Capitalism has bought about a mass greed and turned it into a very real and daily part of our society but it is an inherit part of many humans.

I think another study of history is required here.

Interesting point. However I do feel that greed is a part of human nature. Capitalism has bought about a mass greed and turned it into a very real and daily part of our society but it is an inherit part of many humans.

How can it be an inherent part of many people? If it was part of human nature, then it would be in everyone. Are you going to say that everyone is greedy?

I think another study of history is required here.

A study of history? History is about the rich, not the poor. Looking at history only obscures your view of human nature, you think that everyone is war-like, etc etc. You want Human Nature? Study psychology.

BTW: How would people define greed?

I say that greed, well the mass culture of greed actually comes from Capitalism. When Capitalism is swept away, greed will go with it.

True, Capitalism has made its own culture of greed, taking it to the next level. But think about this: Why did people think Capitalism would be a good way to go? How did it develop?

Animals and Humans alike have horded food, defended nobody more than their own families, and have gone through conflicts over mates, territory, and resources. Communism requires massive lack of this constant attribute in the animal kingdom. I can only think about huge, humble, honest humanitarians by the millions build up a successful Communist empire. People as humble as Mother Teresa or the Dalai Lama. Unfortunately there is only one of each of them :(

At 8/28/02 03:27 PM, Slizor wrote:
BTW: How would people define greed?

Egocentricity. Thinking of yourself and what you can get before the needs of the collective.

It is inevitable that we all do this to an extent because our consciousness is fixed within our own bodies, and by nature, we have to put ourselves first to survive.

True, Capitalism has made its own culture of greed, taking it to the next level. But think about this: Why did people think Capitalism would be a good way to go? How did it develop?

It came about because rich people wanted more power. They swept away the notion that power should be decided by god and replaced it with money as the deciding factor. Capitalism is a result of the political power that the new revolutionary class seized.

Animals and Humans alike have horded food, defended nobody more than their own families, and have gone through conflicts over mates, territory, and resources.

See, you used the word had. People have done this, I won't deny. Like dagger_happy said, people are greedy because they need to be. But as he also said, it is to a point, when they are safe and secure, generally, they don't do these things. Although, people can be manipulated.

It came about because rich people wanted more power. They swept away the notion that power should be decided by god and replaced it with money as the deciding factor. Capitalism is a result of the political power that the new revolutionary class seized.

Generally, Capitalism isn't "led by God", especially since every single religion preaches humbleness (which is quite ironic). But early stages of Capitalism could go as far as tribes trading goods with each other, turning around from the deal thinking that they got a good bargain off of whatever they traded in. I doubt Capitalism as old as TRADING can date back to some rich guy saying: "Hey, I'm going to make a system that makes me stay rich, and the poor poorer!"

See, you used the word had. People have done this, I won't deny. Like dagger_happy said, people are greedy because they need to be. But as he also said, it is to a point, when they are safe and secure, generally, they don't do these things. Although, people can be manipulated.

And, in this Communist state, how can you make one safe and secure? For one thing, you cannot put up with the selfish in the government, because even a small part of it corrupts, the entire government can shatter or go into chaos. And what will you do with freedom of speech? Will you allow people to criticize what the government is doing? And if so, how do you know the people are all going to sign a heart's contract that they're going to stay equal for the cause? Again, I can only imagine millions of Mother Teresas and Dalai Lamas making such a government.

Generally, Capitalism isn't "led by God", especially since every single religion preaches humbleness (which is quite ironic).

Which I did actually say...

But early stages of Capitalism could go as far as tribes trading goods with each other, turning around from the deal thinking that they got a good bargain off of whatever they traded in. I doubt Capitalism as old as TRADING can date back to some rich guy saying: "Hey, I'm going to make a system that makes me stay rich, and the poor poorer!"

Trading is not Capitalism, mainly because capitalism involves Capital, ie money. Anyhow, it's a moot point. Capitalism in it's current form(well actually it's former form, the current has evolved from it) came from the rich wanting power.

And, in this Communist state, how can you make one safe and secure?

By safe and secure I meant all their basic needs were satisfied. So to do it, you need to satisfy them.

For one thing, you cannot put up with the selfish in the government, because even a small part of it corrupts, the entire government can shatter or go into chaos.

That is a possiblity, a very remote one, but a possility none the less.

And what will you do with freedom of speech? Will you allow people to criticize what the government is doing?

Yes..?

And if so, how do you know the people are all going to sign a heart's contract that they're going to stay equal for the cause?

Do your questions have a point? People aren't going to decide to be equal. They will be equal.

Would elections and other political parties be allowed, so the people could vote out the Communists if they wished?

Would elections and other political parties be allowed, so the people could vote out the Communists if they wished?

Depends if it was a revolution by the few(bolshevik) or by the many(menshevik). If it was a revolution by the few they wouldn't, at the start.

Just dumbasses are communist(in the present).

At 8/31/02 04:37 PM, Slizor wrote: Depends if it was a revolution by the few(bolshevik) or by the many(menshevik). If it was a revolution by the few they wouldn't, at the start.

But after the establishment of YOUR ideal Communist state, would political parties who wanted to bring back capitalism be allowed to run in elections, or would it be a one-party system?

Do your questions have a point? People aren't going to decide to be equal. They will be equal.

Don't react to my questions as if I was bullying you. You can make millions of people as equal as possible, but can you make all of them believe they should be equal? Can you make them all believe that every person works for the same cause, and contributes to the same thing? Remember, if one person even tries to get more than the other, it may result in struggles over the self.

Don't react to my questions as if I was bullying you. You can make millions of people as equal as possible, but can you make all of them believe they should be equal? Can you make them all believe that every person works for the same cause, and contributes to the same thing?

Yes. Heh, easy question.

dagger_happy: I'm not quite sure what kind of revolution I would like to set up my ideal state with.