Probably gonna get lots of nos but what are your thoughts on antifa. Also please give me some events to work with. I think that punching a bunch of nazis is absurd and gonna make them feel like they need to nazi harder. But killing them would be insane and make them fucking crazy so either way it is just a unorganized clusterfuck of angry people in get ups so no one is accountable for their actions.
Are antifa good?
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I haven't seen anyone who actually likes them on this board. Though, it does feel like people on the right love them more, because they will use them to paint the entire left as really bad, or try to create a false equivalency as they try to downplay the overwhelmingly right wing extremism, and terrorism, by focusing solely on the actions of this group.
I don't think anyone with a right mind would consider them as "good".
"As the old saying goes...what was it again?"
If you have a faction of the group prepared to use violence, then no, they’re not good.
Their actions are exaggerated, though, because people want to come across as moderates and taking the middle ground. They’re incomparable to right-wing groups like the Proud Boys whose doctrine requires violence, as well as the recent mass shootings by individuals.
They're a bunch of nerds/losers who want to LARP/cosplay like they're part of something important. Their counterparts are just the other face of the same lame coin. (As cliche as that sounds) They're all being played and the police are their babysitters.
At 8/19/19 07:22 AM, Mencret wrote: They're a bunch of nerds/losers who want to LARP/cosplay like they're part of something important. Their counterparts are just the other face of the same lame coin. (As cliche as that sounds) They're all being played and the police are their babysitters.
Though I agree that antifa and the alt-right shouldn't be supported and have no place in civil discussion, would you really put them on the same level?
You see the alt-right effecting policy in all levels of government even the white house, and most of what you see of antifa is the alt-right whining about them and playing victim.
Honestly, it seems for one antifa there is atleast like 12 or more alt-righters complaining about them, then afterward promote actual nazi ideology, so I would say the alt-right is a far more dangerous thing and the political focus on antifa is largely a distraction.
It is necessary law enforcement to stop potential violence, but the rightwing inspires much more and gets away with far more violence then the left.
At 8/19/19 09:08 AM, Heretic-Anchorite wrote: Though I agree that antifa and the alt-right shouldn't be supported and have no place in civil discussion, would you really put them on the same level?
Yes. They're half-baked concepts for half-baked people that should never be taken seriously.
At 8/18/19 09:49 PM, fdawer wrote: Probably gonna get lots of nos but what are your thoughts on antifa. Also please give me some events to work with. I think that punching a bunch of nazis is absurd and gonna make them feel like they need to nazi harder. But killing them would be insane and make them fucking crazy so either way it is just a unorganized clusterfuck of angry people in get ups so no one is accountable for their actions.
They are a terrorist group.
At 8/19/19 01:45 PM, vasinger wrote: They are a terrorist group.
Currently, they are just a bunch of rowdy protestors, who get into fights with far right groups. Once they start to actively plan deaths of people of particular groups, and bombings, and others stuff that far right people are constantly doing these days, then you can call them a terrorist group.
Those acting as lone wolves are not enough to categorize the entire group as terrorists, if thta was the only quatifying factor then many of the far right groups marching in the streets would have long since been labeled as terrorist groups.
At 8/19/19 10:27 AM, RatsAndWorms wrote: they create sympathy and talking points for white supremacist scum bags and alt right vultures preying on the weak minded and ill informed...
so obviously i like them. (sarcasm implied)
Honestly thank god for your parenthesis sarcasm implied because i can NEVER tell when it comes to text.
At 8/19/19 09:08 AM, Heretic-Anchorite wrote:At 8/19/19 07:22 AM, Mencret wrote: They're a bunch of nerds/losers who want to LARP/cosplay like they're part of something important. Their counterparts are just the other face of the same lame coin. (As cliche as that sounds) They're all being played and the police are their babysitters.Though I agree that antifa and the alt-right shouldn't be supported and have no place in civil discussion, would you really put them on the same level?
You see the alt-right effecting policy in all levels of government even the white house, and most of what you see of antifa is the alt-right whining about them and playing victim.
Honestly, it seems for one antifa there is atleast like 12 or more alt-righters complaining about them, then afterward promote actual nazi ideology, so I would say the alt-right is a far more dangerous thing and the political focus on antifa is largely a distraction.
It is necessary law enforcement to stop potential violence, but the rightwing inspires much more and gets away with far more violence then the left.
Right wing inspires more but i hear more about antifa sfuff then alt right stuff. Except rallies but i never hear of anything too bad until other groups get involved.
At 8/19/19 02:51 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: If you have a faction of the group prepared to use violence, then no, they’re not good.
Their actions are exaggerated, though, because people want to come across as moderates and taking the middle ground. They’re incomparable to right-wing groups like the Proud Boys whose doctrine requires violence, as well as the recent mass shootings by individuals.
Honestly, i may be wrong but i feel like the proud boys are being inflated by a bunch of people who just want to punch antifa people.
More than ideological posturing, Antifa and the alt-right operate on diametric opposites. While the right generally does exaggerate the trouble, let alone the damage that they cause, Antifa is no less belligerent and myopic than who they oppose, the only difference is that they rarely follow through with their violent actions, and when they do, they were generally provoked to do so.
Besides politics, the main reason why people hate antifa so much, myself included, is because of their illogical and childish views in their ways and the fact that they only show up to antagonize the alt-right while belittling and shitting on everything else that doesn’t fit into their manifesto. (I suppose the horseshoe theory on ideology is quite apt here)
In short, they aren’t heroes, they’re douchebags. The only difference between them and the alt-right is the latter are utter thugs while the former are simply overreacting man-children.
Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.
At 8/19/19 02:45 PM, EdyKel wrote:At 8/19/19 01:45 PM, vasinger wrote: They are a terrorist group.Currently, they are just a bunch of rowdy protestors, who get into fights with far right groups. Once they start to actively plan deaths of people of particular groups, and bombings, and others stuff that far right people are constantly doing these days, then you can call them a terrorist group.
Those acting as lone wolves are not enough to categorize the entire group as terrorists, if thta was the only quatifying factor then many of the far right groups marching in the streets would have long since been labeled as terrorist groups.
That's right I like guns and ponies. NO NEW GUN CONTROL.
Politically correct is anything that leftists believe.Politically incorrect is anything common sense.
At 8/19/19 07:25 PM, wildfire4461 wrote:At 8/19/19 02:45 PM, EdyKel wrote:They really are considered a terrorist group.At 8/19/19 01:45 PM, vasinger wrote: They are a terrorist group.Currently, they are just a bunch of rowdy protestors, who get into fights with far right groups. Once they start to actively plan deaths of people of particular groups, and bombings, and others stuff that far right people are constantly doing these days, then you can call them a terrorist group.
Those acting as lone wolves are not enough to categorize the entire group as terrorists, if thta was the only quatifying factor then many of the far right groups marching in the streets would have long since been labeled as terrorist groups.
Well, I keep hearing Trump, and Senate Republicans, saying they are going to label them as domestic terrorists - and this was in the last two months, while staying very quite about the rise of far right terrorism (mass shootings and bombings attempts). l also looked around for list of domestic terrorist groups, but all I could find was the Wiki. Neither Homeland security, or the FBI, websites had an official list I could find.
Hmmm...
At 8/18/19 10:05 PM, EdyKel wrote: I haven't seen anyone who actually likes them on this board. Though, it does feel like people on the right love them more, because they will use them to paint the entire left as really bad, or try to create a false equivalency as they try to downplay the overwhelmingly right wing extremism, and terrorism, by focusing solely on the actions of this group.
If you read this post backwards you will have the stance of the extreme left.
At 8/20/19 08:48 AM, RatsAndWorms wrote:At 8/19/19 04:28 PM, fdawer wrote:i guess dumbing it down for you was the right choice.At 8/19/19 10:27 AM, RatsAndWorms wrote: they create sympathy and talking points for white supremacist scum bags and alt right vultures preying on the weak minded and ill informed...Honestly thank god for your parenthesis sarcasm implied because i can NEVER tell when it comes to text.
so obviously i like them. (sarcasm implied)
Ouch.. not wrong though...
I love how people act like leftists do not go on mass-shootings even after Dayton. Either way I don't care for right-wingers or left-wingers or the "alt" stuff so I think it is entertaining when they "attack" each other and when you guys are so desperate to associate the "alt-right" with white nationalists to feel like you are attacking white nationalists when we are totally dismissive of them.
i think theyre kinda good but make themselves look bad. it seems like most of the people have good intentions and want to stop truly bad things. obviously the rape gods want you to think that some disorganized protesters are the real terrorists. hasn't anyone ever read like even one novel with a theme of an orwellian government? its so obvious. i think its not smart of them to punch people or use violence at all but alot of alt right / whatever the fuck grifter people are inciting the violence by doing wild ass shit so that right wing ""journalists"" can spin it as if antifa is doing violent shit a lot more often for no reason. seriously, look into some of the incidents. antifa people ALWAYS have VIDEOS of the incident that are longer.... just seriously take a look. i think this is a big reason groups like this exist anyways, people dont give a fuck about looking anything up because there are still people while (ironic i know) using fucking cell phones with internet and all of mans knowledge at a hands touch, still basically and essentially refute the stance that more knowledge on something gives you more understanding on something.
either way, they would be better if they could strongly accomplish things without violence, without blocking roads which annoys people on both """sides""" but i think overall it is good to have protesters who want things to get better and who reject the rape gods. im not super deep into politics but i do think a lot of people have problems with basically being humongous fucking masochists who are "boot licking" or generally doing anything that shows an insanely huge lack of self respect
https://generated.inspirobot.me/a/qlPBXrQme5.jpg
At 8/23/19 09:32 PM, DragonLimbo wrote: I love how people act like leftists do not go on mass-shootings even after Dayton. Either way I don't care for right-wingers or left-wingers or the "alt" stuff so I think it is entertaining when they "attack" each other and when you guys are so desperate to associate the "alt-right" with white nationalists to feel like you are attacking white nationalists when we are totally dismissive of them.
But the alt right is a vague term for extremist Republicans. How are they not white nationalists? Otherwise you make some solid points.
Shit, do I have to return to these boards to be the lone supporter of anti-fascists against hard right wingers and tepid liberals?
Well so be it. I hate trying to type on these boards since my phone has the funny habit of deleting my posts whenever I try to link sources (by refreshing the page), but as long as I'm not linking anything I should be fine, I guess.
Ahem.
Do I support "Antifa"? Generally, yes, but people need to be more specific, since the people gathering in antifa rallies aren't an organization of any sort - it's an ideology of resisting Fascism wherever and however possible. As an ideology, I absolutely support this; Fascism should be put down wherever and however possible, and it's been on the rise globally for years.
I prefer using peaceful methods, but if non-violence doesn't work then I do support escalating levels of engagement (shame->political enforcement->physical confrontation->removal), as a fully realized Fascist state would cost the lives of millions. Ideologically, I am as anti-Fascist as can be, and I'd hope everyone here could agree that being against Fascism is their default position.
Most people think of the black flag gatherings when they talk about "Antifa" (the masked people that protest, get physical, etc.), though, so to them I say I support their actions, but with the caveat that sometimes they need to be careful when identifying fascist groups. Milkshake a Proud Boy and punch Andy Ngo (who is absolutely a Fascist), fine, but it's difficult to discern who's an active Fascist and who's a bystander (or simply a conservative) sometimes, so they gotta be careful. It's been less of an issue lately (open Fascists have been more numorous), but in the past "Antifa" could get out of hand. They've never crossed the line to become murderers or conspire against bystanders, though (which is in contrast to Fascists) - they instead react to proto-Fascist and Fascist gatherings.
People don't like violence, and I don't blame them (I'm a pretty docile fellow, myself), but I do in fact support harassing, deplatforming, and if all else fails getting physical with Fascists in order to prevent harm or death to others. It's rare that events warrent gatherings of Antifa people, but when you have known violent Fascist groups (like Proud Boys) in large gatherings I'd rather Antifa be out to keep that shit in check than not.
It's been a while, I can make a long post after such a break.
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At 8/28/19 03:26 AM, Gario wrote: Shit, do I have to return to these boards to be the lone supporter of anti-fascists against hard right wingers and tepid liberals?
Well so be it. I hate trying to type on these boards since my phone has the funny habit of deleting my posts whenever I try to link sources (by refreshing the page), but as long as I'm not linking anything I should be fine, I guess.
Ahem.
Do I support "Antifa"? Generally, yes, but people need to be more specific, since the people gathering in antifa rallies aren't an organization of any sort - it's an ideology of resisting Fascism wherever and however possible. As an ideology, I absolutely support this; Fascism should be put down wherever and however possible, and it's been on the rise globally for years.
Welcome back.
I think many would agree that we should fight Fascism, white nationalist, and other hate groups, just not by violence.
The problem with Antifa is that they are a loosely organized group, which anyone can dress up in black and wear masks, are being used to undermine their own cause with their inability to control the violence from those who are supposedly part of their group. And the media reacts to violence, just like they did in Nazi Germany, with Antifa being vilified over the Nazis, because of their street violence - they haven't learned anything since.
The whole point of violence is to terrorize, or intimidate, which doesn't work with far right groups like the Proud
Boys, because they have in their charters a rule to beat up protestors, like Antifa. But they are much better organized, and smarter, than Antifa. In their recent Portland Oregon rally they held back from violence, because they wanted it to be a purely optics operation, hoping to use the violence from Antifa to paint themselves, and their cause, as victims of the left.
And far right media loves Antifa, since they are always using them to paint the entire left as violent, worse than the right. So, don't defend a radical group that is just a gift to the right, with their street uncontrollable violence.
At 8/28/19 03:26 AM, Gario wrote: Shit, do I have to return to these boards to be the lone supporter of anti-fascists against hard right wingers and tepid liberals?
Well so be it. I hate trying to type on these boards since my phone has the funny habit of deleting my posts whenever I try to link sources (by refreshing the page), but as long as I'm not linking anything I should be fine, I guess.
Ahem.
Do I support "Antifa"? Generally, yes, but people need to be more specific, since the people gathering in antifa rallies aren't an organization of any sort - it's an ideology of resisting Fascism wherever and however possible. As an ideology, I absolutely support this; Fascism should be put down wherever and however possible, and it's been on the rise globally for years.
I prefer using peaceful methods, but if non-violence doesn't work then I do support escalating levels of engagement (shame->political enforcement->physical confrontation->removal), as a fully realized Fascist state would cost the lives of millions. Ideologically, I am as anti-Fascist as can be, and I'd hope everyone here could agree that being against Fascism is their default position.
Most people think of the black flag gatherings when they talk about "Antifa" (the masked people that protest, get physical, etc.), though, so to them I say I support their actions, but with the caveat that sometimes they need to be careful when identifying fascist groups. Milkshake a Proud Boy and punch Andy Ngo (who is absolutely a Fascist), fine, but it's difficult to discern who's an active Fascist and who's a bystander (or simply a conservative) sometimes, so they gotta be careful. It's been less of an issue lately (open Fascists have been more numorous), but in the past "Antifa" could get out of hand. They've never crossed the line to become murderers or conspire against bystanders, though (which is in contrast to Fascists) - they instead react to proto-Fascist and Fascist gatherings.
People don't like violence, and I don't blame them (I'm a pretty docile fellow, myself), but I do in fact support harassing, deplatforming, and if all else fails getting physical with Fascists in order to prevent harm or death to others. It's rare that events warrent gatherings of Antifa people, but when you have known violent Fascist groups (like Proud Boys) in large gatherings I'd rather Antifa be out to keep that shit in check than not.
It's been a while, I can make a long post after such a break.
I see what you mean. Ironically being against facists they kinda are facists in themselves.
At 8/28/19 04:08 PM, fdawer wrote:
I see what you mean. Ironically being against facists they kinda are facists in themselves.
Antifa as a philosophy doesn't involve ultranationalism, nor does it involve establishing self evident classes of privilege. They're not Fascists, by any scholastic definition of the term.
I don't think you know what Fascism is. That's okay - it's not well defined in common parlance - but do be careful tossing words like that around. It's very relevant today, and it makes it more difficult to seriously discuss when people toss the term around for anyone who throws a punch.
Palingenetic Ultranationalism is Fascism. Antifa do not fit this definition.
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If someone has to hide their face while enforcing their political agenda, they are up to no good. Anyone that causes violence, vandalism, etc to make a political point is not a good person/group.
Tempus Edax Rerum
At 8/28/19 04:25 PM, Gario wrote:At 8/28/19 04:08 PM, fdawer wrote:Antifa as a philosophy doesn't involve ultranationalism, nor does it involve establishing self evident classes of privilege. They're not Fascists, by any scholastic definition of the term.
I see what you mean. Ironically being against facists they kinda are facists in themselves.
I don't think you know what Fascism is. That's okay - it's not well defined in common parlance - but do be careful tossing words like that around. It's very relevant today, and it makes it more difficult to seriously discuss when people toss the term around for anyone who throws a punch.
Palingenetic Ultranationalism is Fascism. Antifa do not fit this definition.
Fuuuuuck.... i was thinking of a dictatorship. I always do that. Thanks for being so nice about it.
At 8/28/19 12:54 PM, EdyKel wrote:
I think many would agree that we should fight Fascism, white nationalist, and other hate groups, just not by violence.
It should depend on the situation, rather than be rejected outright. Deep down you know this; you're not someone who believes pacifism was an option for the afflicted German people in the 30's and 40's, are you?
If there's a threat that one could wrongly lose their citizenship, have their family broken apart, or have genocide commit against them, I'd be alright with extra judicial violence to prevent that. The government's various branches and systems are supposed to protect it's citizens in order to make extra judicial violence unnecessary, but when it either fails to prevent or actively abets Fascists then I'd rather see someone standing against it.
The problem with Antifa is that they are a loosely organized group, which anyone can dress up in black and wear masks, are being used to undermine their own cause with their inability to control the violence from those who are supposedly part of their group.
I assume you mean black flag groups. Yeah, the lack of organization sucks, I agree. They're not perfect, by any means.
And the media reacts to violence, just like they did in Nazi Germany, with Antifa being vilified over the Nazis, because of their street violence - they haven't learned anything since.
Yes, it's terrible that MSM ultimately will side with Facsism when given a choice between that and Socialists (historically corporations capitulate to Fascists when given the choice between them and Socialists). Yes, it's really bad that the media very often chooses to believe the Fascist accounts of events rather than their counterprotesters accounts (who often much later are proven right - see the Andy Ngo stories for a recent example of this). Why is that Antifa's fault rather than a failing on the American press?
I'd think that's more of a call to strengthen independent journalism than to yell at Antifa - are you sure your ire isn't misdirected?
See, almost all of the stories that the news grabs is of a counter protestor defending themselves from a violent Fascist who assaulted them. To avoid bad press or altercations altogether they'd either need to avoid situations that could lead to violence (like counterprotesting, their 1st amendment right), or risk severe injury (or death) in the face of Fascist violence by not defending oneself. I'd hope you're not going to suggest either of these options are viable - either right wing organization grows unopposed, or left wingers line up to get their shit kicked in.
The whole point of violence is to terrorize, or intimidate which doesn't work with far right groups like the Proud Boys, because they have in their charters a rule to beat up protestors, like Antifa.
I disagree. Groups like Proud Boys are a problem because they're tacitly supported by the government and media - this makes them feel well protected. If they felt outnumbered or out-gunned they would hide, since Fascists are inherently cowards (you really have to be a coward to support ultranationalism).
This makes the problem more complicated, certainly, but backing down isn't a viable option either, as I already discussed above. I don't blame Antifa for not having a better reaction to literally the entire country moving dangerously quickly toward open Fascism - that's a really, REALLY complicated problem to deal with. Ain't their fault.
But they are much better organized, and smarter, than Antifa. In their recent Portland Oregon rally they held back from violence, because they wanted it to be a purely optics operation, hoping to use the violence from Antifa to paint themselves, and their cause, as victims of the left.
And then they openly admitted that they did the protest to "waste Portland's money", after openly admitting that THIS rally wasn't the place for them to do violence (which is a tacit admission that other rallies were), which in a sane world would absolutely counter any "good optics" they had done in that rally. Any investigation would have the evidence to have virtually all of their members arrested for conspiracy against the United States, as well as various cases of assault.
They're not smart, they're lucky. The government is simply unwilling to do anything about their open rebellion, so they get away with their myriad of fuck-ups. It's like Mr. 45, in a way: he's not a criminal mastermind - he's simply lucky that the government is filled either with people who support his actions (the GOP) or people who are too cowardly to use their entrustes power to keep him in check (the Democrats).
This does show that enemies of the right to assemble and defend oneself is much larger than just the Proud Boys (and other right wing domestic terror groups) - we're actually dealing with domestic terrorists who have the backing of the major news networks and the government. Yeah, Antifa groups are going to have a hard time dealing with this without looking terrible, but again, how is this Antifa's fault?
And far right media loves Antifa, since they are always using them to paint the entire left as violent, worse than the right.
So, er, don't give far right media the time of day? People who watch that are already going to believe Antifa is a terror group; capitulating to them doesn't help the left at all.
So, don't defend a radical group that is just a gift to the right, with their street uncontrollable violence.
Nah, I'll defend them, and do so openly - they sound like they need the help. Otherwise, who's going to be the sane voice saying that they're not a band of roaming savages who randomly beat up right wingers? They're not - even the most active black flag groups are counterprotesters who at worst respond to escalating violence in kind, rather than plotting violence.
----
A point to leave off on, whether you like it or not, by telling Antifa to stand down you're accidentally supporting right wing terror - their goal is to silence the left. By openly calling out the left/Antifa to do nothing in response to growing Fascism so that they "don't make the left look bad", you're unwittingly carrying water for the right wing terrorists and Fascists.
Sadly, this demonstrates that terrorism works. At least, it's working on you, so far.
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At 8/29/19 11:50 AM, Gario wrote:At 8/28/19 12:54 PM, EdyKel wrote:It should depend on the situation, rather than be rejected outright. Deep down you know this; you're not someone who believes pacifism was an option for the afflicted German people in the 30's and 40's, are you?
I think many would agree that we should fight Fascism, white nationalist, and other hate groups, just not by violence.
If there's a threat that one could wrongly lose their citizenship, have their family broken apart, or have genocide commit against them, I'd be alright with extra judicial violence to prevent that. The government's various branches and systems are supposed to protect it's citizens in order to make extra judicial violence unnecessary, but when it either fails to prevent or actively abets Fascists then I'd rather see someone standing against it.
And the best way is to keep pointing these draconic policies out, not have a group do property damage, hurt bystanders, or get into street fights with far right groups. It's all about optics, and what the right often uses to paint the left as violent. Trump's is already hurting in the polls because of these policies, and the violence that his rhetoric helps to promote. Antifa shouldn't distract from that by trying to make talking points against them with their violent antics.
And the media reacts to violence, just like they did in Nazi Germany, with Antifa being vilified over the Nazis, because of their street violence - they haven't learned anything since.Yes, it's terrible that MSM ultimately will side with Facsism when given a choice between that and Socialists (historically corporations capitulate to Fascists when given the choice between them and Socialists). Yes, it's really bad that the media very often chooses to believe the Fascist accounts of events rather than their counterprotesters accounts (who often much later are proven right - see the Andy Ngo stories for a recent example of this). Why is that Antifa's fault rather than a failing on the American press?
I'd think that's more of a call to strengthen independent journalism than to yell at Antifa - are you sure your ire isn't misdirected?
Antifa is a misdirect, as least, for the right. The general media these days is mostly about reporting what gets the most attention, and violence, of any sort, gets that attention - and the more violent something is the more attention it gets. Far right violence is getting themost attention these days because of the rising incidents involving them - which is also reflecting poorly on Trump, and the right.
The whole point of violence is to terrorize, or intimidate which doesn't work with far right groups like the Proud Boys, because they have in their charters a rule to beat up protestors, like Antifa.I disagree. Groups like Proud Boys are a problem because they're tacitly supported by the government and media - this makes them feel well protected. If they felt outnumbered or out-gunned they would hide, since Fascists are inherently cowards (you really have to be a coward to support ultranationalism).
Maybe at first, but that is changing, given the rising incident involving far right groups. I barely hear much about Antifa these days. I hear more about some MAGA hat trump supporter being attacked than Antifa. And I hear more about far right incidents, including foiled terrorist plots from them, on an almost weekly basis - sometimes daily.
But they are much better organized, and smarter, than Antifa. In their recent Portland Oregon rally they held back from violence, because they wanted it to be a purely optics operation, hoping to use the violence from Antifa to paint themselves, and their cause, as victims of the left.And then they openly admitted that they did the protest to "waste Portland's money", after openly admitting that THIS rally wasn't the place for them to do violence (which is a tacit admission that other rallies were), which in a sane world would absolutely counter any "good optics" they had done in that rally. Any investigation would have the evidence to have virtually all of their members arrested for conspiracy against the United States, as well as various cases of assault.
They're not smart, they're lucky. The government is simply unwilling to do anything about their open rebellion, so they get away with their myriad of fuck-ups. It's like Mr. 45, in a way: he's not a criminal mastermind - he's simply lucky that the government is filled either with people who support his actions (the GOP) or people who are too cowardly to use their entrustes power to keep him in check (the Democrats).
This does show that enemies of the right to assemble and defend oneself is much larger than just the Proud Boys (and other right wing domestic terror groups) - we're actually dealing with domestic terrorists who have the backing of the major news networks and the government. Yeah, Antifa groups are going to have a hard time dealing with this without looking terrible, but again, how is this Antifa's fault?
The right leaning media, and even our right leaning government, are now realizing they have a huge problem on their hands, which is not going to go away, no matter how much they try to downplay it. The general public is going to notice what they might not want to come out and say: Right-wing extremism is a greater threat than any other extremism, including Muslim extremists, in this country. And this is affecting the public's perception of right-wing politics, which have pandered on white culture identity politics for decades, and which have only gotten worse under Trump. This is affecting them in the polls.
Many corporations, and businesses, are already reacting, especially towards partisan media site like Fox News, as hundreds of advertisers flee from them over comments made by some of their political commentators, like Chris Tucker, who claimed that white nationalism isn't a problem in the country. Not to mention, social media sites cracking down on hate groups. And the right, and Trump, are losing whatever argument against them censoring right leaning people, when most of those people promote hate.
So, don't defend a radical group that is just a gift to the right, with their street uncontrollable violence.Nah, I'll defend them, and do so openly - they sound like they need the help. Otherwise, who's going to be the sane voice saying that they're not a band of roaming savages who randomly beat up right wingers? They're not - even the most active black flag groups are counterprotesters who at worst respond to escalating violence in kind, rather than plotting violence.
They are not the voice of saneness, especially with the property damage, and throwing objects and starting fires. They are not discouraging hate, only retaliation from those groups, and talking points against them. That is not smart, no matter how you look at it.
A point to leave off on, whether you like it or not, by telling Antifa to stand down you're accidentally supporting right wing terror - their goal is to silence the left. By openly calling out the left/Antifa to do nothing in response to growing Fascism so that they "don't make the left look bad", you're unwittingly carrying water for the right wing terrorists and Fascists.
I didn't say they should stand down, just not act like a disorganized group of kids, playing dress up in masks, who any one can hide in, and end up throwing temper tantrums that involve property damage and violence.
Sadly, this demonstrates that terrorism works. At least, it's working on you, so far.
Don't give me that shit. I spent most of my time around here dealing with shits that try to create a false equivalency by using Antifa to paint violence from the left as equal, or greater to the right. And you know that. So don't prove me wrong by supporting that violence, and encouraging it, in a left leaning group.
At 8/29/19 09:27 PM, EdyKel wrote:
And the best way is to keep pointing these draconic policies out...
Whether or not the alternitive you list is a great idea, I can promise merely pointing out the bad ideas on the right is a terrible strategy. Democrats have done that for three decades, and that has lead us to literally losing thousands of seats to Republican cheating and rule breaking.
This solution is naive, and only works in a world where the right wing leaders and voters feels shame.
They don't.
Trump's is already hurting in the polls because of these policies, and the violence that his rhetoric helps to promote.
Wrong. Mr. 45 has virtually the same support he always had - ranging from 35-45% support (we're actually at a relative high point in his support right now at over 40%). Media spooges on itself whenever the chart fluctuates between these numbers, but he's maintained this range pretty consistently over the last three years. He is not losing support over his openly Fascist positions.
If you're going to rely on him "losing support" for 2020 then prepare for a rude surprise come November 7th next year.
Maybe at first, but that is changing, given the rising incident involving far right groups. ... I hear more about far right incidents, including foiled terrorist plots from them, on an almost weekly basis - sometimes daily.
When the difference between left wing terror and right wing terror is literally 40-1, yeah, you're going to hear more about right wing terror than left wing. It doesn't change the fact that the media overall has to handle it with kids gloves due to the President's general support for these groups.
Also, how's Twitter handlin' the right wing these days?
The right leaning media, and even our right leaning government, are now realizing they have a huge problem on their hands, which is not going to go away, no matter how much they try to downplay it. The general public is going to notice what they might not want to come out and say: Right-wing extremism is a greater threat than any other extremism, including Muslim extremists, in this country.
And this is precisely why Liberals historically fail against Fascism, time and again.
No, the right wing public isn't taking this in the way you're describing - you are taking it this way. Over 40% of Americans (aka over 90% of Republicans) see the right wing terror in the media, and either believe everyone is lying about it, or tacitly support it. Mainstream liberal media rightly calls it out as a problem, but right wing media (Fox or further right) uphold the talking points of the terrorists.
You're presenting a view that just doesn't reflect reality: the right wing see what their side is doing, and are happy to support it. You can't "shame" people away from this - they know and accept what they're doing, at this point.
Many corporations, and businesses, are already reacting, especially towards partisan media site like Fox News, as hundreds of advertisers flee from them over comments made by some of their political commentators... (etc.)
Two points, here.
First, you don't understand the first thing about populism if you think that advertisers abandoning populist rhetoricians is going to dull their overall support (and believe me, Tucker is definitely a right wing populist) The reason they're popular is precisely because they piss off what their listeners believe are the power structures, and corporations, advertisers, etc., are most certainly considered power structures.
If Fox abandons Tucker, he will have plenty that will follow him to a worse platform, like OANN. It will make this problem worse by growing organizations like OANN with his fan base, which are worse than FOX.
Second, corporations and businesses are shutting down left leaning hosts and sites at as fast (or arguably faster) a rate than right leaning folk. I'm not sure you're away of Youtubepocalypse, where left wing independent news lost up to 90% of their ad revenue (it started because of nazis using ads, ironically). This happened prior to right wing people losing support, and those platforms never recovered from those losses. Advertisers are hitting everyone except established news outlets - it's not a reaction to the right wing, but to opposition to their established power.
This is not as good of a thing as you paint it.
They are not the voice of saneness, especially with the property damage, and throwing objects and starting fires. They are not discouraging hate, only retaliation from those groups, and talking points against them. That is not smart, no matter how you look at it.
You really don't listen to their messages, so who would you be to say their voice isn't "sane"?
Their place isn't to "discourage hate" - that's the job of other leftists. Their job is to defend leftie protestors and counterprotestors from right wing violence, and make far right organizations feel uncomfortable/unsafe openly supporting Fascism. If it wasn't doing anything to make them uncomfortable they wouldn't make such vibrant calls to squelch Antifa, so I would argue they're doing some good on that front.
I didn't say they should stand down, just not act like a disorganized group of kids, playing dress up in masks, who any one can hide in, and end up throwing temper tantrums that involve property damage and violence.
You missed the part where I argued there isn't another option outside of "Standing down" or "Be violently assaulted by the Fascists undefended". It's easy to just say they should "do something else" without providing realistic alternatives, so what exactly are you suggesting they do? Protest without any self defense measure and get hurt/killed, stay home and minimize left wing presence, or...? I don't see many alternatives, but feel free to provide one.
Oh, and "Be perfect and don't ever make mistakes" isn't a viable alternative - that's stochastically an inevitability. We have to accept that.
But yeah, you got another option? Shoot: I'm all ears.
Don't give me that shit. I spent most of my time around here dealing with shits that try to create a false equivalency by using Antifa to paint violence from the left as equal, or greater to the right. And you know that.
Good for you. So do I. This doesn't make you special.
It sounds like you know the violence on the left isn't the same as the violence on the right, though, so that means you understand that there's a difference between knifing someone because they're, say, an immigrant, and knifing someone because they're trying to stab an immigrant, then? That's reductive, but the point comes across all the same.
If so, why are we even arguing? Violence from the left isn't the same as violence from the right, QED. It's not that hard of an argument to make.
So don't prove me wrong by supporting that violence, and encouraging it, in a left leaning group.
I definitely support Antifa overall, and will play light defense of black bloc operations (you don't seem to be making that distinction - you should), sorry that makes life hard for you. This isn't a forum where I can nuance-fuck the instances that I feel they should improve on very well. Here's me giving it a shot, though, since you don't sound like you know much about them.
I support Antifa, who's activity ranges from organizing protests, offering aid to those hurt in protests, shelter to people being hurt by literal Nazi troll brigades, and yes, use black bloc strategies by hitting Fascists when the Fascists get violent at rallies, or punching Fascists that have a history of putting loves in danger (lookin' at you, Ngo). Sometimes they take it a little far (property damage, I don't agree with that), but considering the situation they sit in right now I'm impressed with the relative restraint they hold - not one person has died at the hands of Antifa, for example, nor is anyone crippled due to their actions.
It's actually statistically impressive - considering the range of their activity.
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Antifa have always been considered a terrorist organisation. Since 1979 at least.
Status awaiting possible terrorist attacks by members of the German terrorist organization Antifa in West Berlin, allegedly to be directed against radio/TV stations and offices of newspaper agencies. Some of the Antifa members had arrived in West Berlin a few days before the weekend and had taken preparations in anticipation for these attacks.
During the weekend, the majority of the Antifa terrorists (total number maximum ten) had been under constant surveillance by LFV Berlin and West Berlin’s Political Police. The attack was believed to be directed, among others, against the AFN radio/TV station. Precautionary measures to protect radio/TV stations, offices of news agencies, and other public buildings believed to be high on the list of the terrorists had been taken during the weekend.
Their backing comes from highly questionable sources. Like any political organisation comprised entirely of melts. They're a bit like the 'red scarves', which included a small faction of people trying to disrupt the gilet jaunes protests and the media fucking creamed their pants about it. Even though they were the only civilians being violent toward other civilians.
They claim to be anti-fascist and for the greater good.. yet they generally attack people who are anti-war whilst simultaneously embracing globalist efforts of conquest.
This is probably the best list of antifa crimes I could find quickly. It's gets into a bit of a Jewish conspiracy thing at the end, which I don't particularly endorse but information is information. Mainly saying , just look at the pictures if you want to understand what they're about. This is what happens when the media don't have the backbone to report the truth and instead choose to lick the arseholes of these people.
Antifa are easily misguided imo. Anyone who conflates loving ones race for hating other races, is a racist.
Bad.
