At 11/6/18 10:29 PM, Lambtaco wrote:
I think you're conflating art with talk here. Or at least inflating the impact and importance people's forum posts by not distinguishing the two enough. Not everything is a culture-defining contribution to humanity, some stuff is just fluff. When you lump in forum posts (and to a lesser extent reviews) with the actual creative works like music, movies, games, etc. it just sounds like undue reverence for inconsequential conversations. Not everything we say needs to be archived for all eternity. The NG BBS is not the Library of Congress.
I do wish it was. We don't value our contributions enough I think. Be it fluff, it's fluff that molds you into who you are, be it a contribution to the greater whole or simply a step in your personal evolution, it pains me every time someone wishes to clear that bit of their history like that. Feels like they don't really realize what they're doing.
Like, I have some submissions I'm not proud of from around the same time I made dumb forum posts, and I'm totally cool with leaving those on the site, because they were published works that I intended to remain online forever when I posted them. Those are part of history, however small. But forum posts are just talk. At the time they were intended as conversations between those involved. Having them archived or future eavesdroppers is just weird. (Much more Orwellian for a third party to keep records of decade old conversations than to let people delete their own posts, if you ask me.) Why should everything you said online when you were literally a child need a permanent record that's attached to your current identity? It serves only to embarrass the users. Nobody but the poster cares. Letting someone alleviate that embarrassment is worth the negligible loss to the culture of NG.
I feel that anything you post online should be eternal if it's not posted to appear in a more temporary feed, IE a chat. Why treat forum posts any different from other content? Sure some are worth more and some less, but differentiating as to the worth of said content as to if it should stay or no: I don't believe in that. I'm prepared that everything I put up remain here forever, embarrassing or no. Maybe mindset is the problem: people not putting enough forethought into their posts. Maybe the issue is confidence. People not standing for what they say. I don't know, but thinking before you write something generally seems like a good idea, and such a system seems to encourage it. Even if it's possible to have content deleted you can't make anything unsaid. If you're not willing to stand for what you say then why say it? I'd also argue that whatever you posted was relevant to the context it was posted in, so unless posts are continually purged by a set interval of oldness, then just certain users removing their contributions to each topic feels wrong.
But alright, though I don't agree I can respect the differences in demands and wishes as far as posted content goes.The thing that really bothers me here is how one users deletions also affects those of others: if a user is the OP of a thread, then that entire thread is removed when they delete their post, along with the posts of everyone else, who may not have wanted those posts to disappear. Maybe some of them really were worthwhile contributions that'd stand the test of time impressively well. So, I suppose I relate spontaneous and unmerited (as I see them) deletions as something that does hurt the community as a whole, not just the right of that individual user.
Besides, there's such a thing as gone but not forgotten. Erasing the record of a conversation doesn't erase it for the people involved. The people to whom the event has any meaning will remember it, so why is it necessary to preserve it for everyone else to whom it's irrelevant. When you delete a review or forum post, you don't forget it ever existed. If you go through the effort to delete it, you've probably got a reason and you learned something.
Why do we have photo albums, or diaries, or all of these other mementos we keep to remember things that we could be expected to remember? Probably because our memories are a frail thing; we rely on material keepsakes to preserve that which we do not wish to forget. If we learned something from something then all the more reason to preserve it and remind us of that lesson IMO.
While I agree there should be measures to prevent abuse and accidents, IMO you're the one sacrificing the rights of other for your own wants. I get the impression you're for preserving the culture of NG at all costs, even when that overrides the rights of the artists to control their own work.
Your impression does sound about right...
If the creator of a work wants that work removed, it should be removed. It's that simple. Unless there's some sort of sponsorship deal, or they sell the rights. When you create something you own the rights to your creation. Especially on Newgrounds, a very creator focused site. Even advertiser/consumer focused sites like Youtube let you delete your own content whenever you want. You can delete your own tweets or facebook posts. Most forums let you delete your posts. It's standard practice for a reason.
The way I see it a "forever no matter what" clause would only serve to discourage posting. Some great stuff has been posted on a lark, and a forever clause would prevent a lot of people from posting these things in the future. "This will be here forever" is a foreboding message. It almost sounds like a threat. A forever clause wouldn't preserve the culture so much as it would prevent the culture from growing.
Sorry if this seems argumentative or contrarian or what-have-you. I just legitimately disagree with most of what you said.
Hmm well it is pretty contrarian to my own ideals, but I could live with a system like this, as the system is, as long as deletions are isolated events. If one users wants their work gone: let all those who reviewed that work keep their reviews. If a user wants their topic gone: let all users who posted to that topic keep their responses. Unlink the titles but keep them in each user's respective post/review history. If the system were tweaked so that each deletion didn't call forth an avalanche I think I'd be OK with it anyway. I know I'll keep my content forever. If there's a topic or submission I want to remember I still have my own memento from it. It hasn't been purged from existence entirely...
There have been plenty of cases in the past where other users deletion really negatively affected the culture. For example: The User Icons Club topic has been totally wiped out twice, when respective owners decided they were done with the site. A huge amount of contributions went away with those.
I remember working on a collab, where one of the co-authors had started a topic regarding characters NG users could choose to be, the collab took more time than expected, they suddenly decided it was time for a fresh start, cleared their posts, and all references within that thread were gone... had to start contacting users by memory, and probably missed a bundle.
Occasionally a creator, like illwillpress, will decide to just remove all their previous uploads, resulting in broken collection pages, and hundreds of missing reviews if you were a somewhat devoted fan. It happens more often than I'd like.
Other users deletions just clearly affect me, and others, and as such I'm just really adverse to a system that encourages this. Isolated deletions and some serious fail safes in the face of possible abuse would be good. I've had my account hacked in the past too, and that was no fun at all. Fortunately at the time deleting (or editing) posts and reviews wasn't an option, but all other content forms, both private and public: no failsafe. When it's gone it's gone. Without even two-pass to keep accounts somewhat secure: all the more freedom to have stuff removed sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen.