I live here. I should know.

What i hate with American politics is they listen to that dunce Bernie and think he knows everything. Socialism is as evil as fascism, communism and neo nazism.

Now some may consider communism and socialism less evil than fascism and nazism because atleast it doesnt seem to go into "not looking after the weak". The only type of evil it tries to go with is love as in "ignore reality as we see it" thats a form of hate too really. So both are hateful systems. If anything i would recommend following Japan's infrastructure form of government. They have zero socialism but what they do have is "capitalism + neo liberal laws as health care and welfare" its both productive and also empathetic system of infrastructure of government. So yeah i'd go with that. Either way true love is to care about humanity and wish for a better world for future generations

But here is the thing. Norway is not democratic socialist, we are not even socialist that is a big lie by Bernie.

What we are is a social democracy. To sum it up, social democracy means you use democracy to incorporate social programs like welfare, health care etc, but capitalism is the main model. Norway was insanely poor before americans helped us find oil btw. So yeah, that is capitalism for you for making country rich and productive. In either case, now to explain democratic socialism, that means using democracy purely to implement socialism "kinda what venezuela is".

So if you americans think its bad now "which i dont think, i mean its not terrible but its not a safety net i guess" well guess what, imagine how its gonna look like all red, the bolshevik revolution. Yeah its gonna look like crap.

in fact i think United Kingdom is more on its way to become a socialist marxist heaven soon with hate speech laws they incorporate. Meaning example Rotterham incident, if this happend in USA even if you are brown you would be held responsible or well if there was a flaw the cops would be sued. Well apparently not in UK because Neo marxist beliefs is to fight the oppressors against the oppressed (even if the oppressed have bad ideas) see how flawed this idea is? Thats hate speech for you, if you were to object or complain well you are a racist and may be arrested. In compared to free speech where the only crime is to have facts wrong and be debunked.

So yeah, socialism is pretty much as terrible as the others i mentioned. What is your view?

At 7/22/18 07:32 AM, Zornuzkull wrote: Nordic capitalist social democrat... to the average american its all socialism...
and socialism is communism and this is bad... apparently...

Socialism is bad, but we are not though. Being liberal and conservative is just normal though so that is more what issues one agree to disagree with. UK would be more defined as socialism nowadays with hate speech laws favoring one political bias over actually freedom of speech to have the opinions and debunk oppositions with facts. So thats what socialism means to me, just control the overall what people can say or not. "not to be confused oposing violence incitement which means to get gang and promote violence as in physically promote or attack people literally" but its ok to have an opinion as in "i dont agree and here is why" is ok, to debunk such people is your job with facts.

If its discrimination that is problem, implementing anti discrimination laws in terms of "work places" like against discrimination based upon sex, religion, sexuality etc can also be done in terms of harasments or atleast warnings before you get like final warnings etc before consequences are made. But yeah like just overall saying UK feels more like going with Karl Marx nowadays which is unfortunate

The thing UK has going is the institution is good

It would be better to talk just about what`s actually happening instead of arguing about what to define it as

Popping in to (shockingly) agree that, yes, Bernie was 100% wrong to call both himself and Norway a Democratic socialist country - it's a friggin' social democracy. Because of his fuck-up, now most progressives that say they're democratic socialists are actually espousing social democracy ideas, which muddles and confuses the whole damn process, and will probably be something progressives will deal with for years to come.

Doesn't help that DSA is latching on and taking advantage of this fuck-up, trying to attach their ACTUAL Democratic Socialism to a party that's actually fighting for social democracy. I don't criticism Bernie much, but he really dropped the ball on that one and made the future of this movement more difficult than it needed to be.

I really don't follow this type of stuff. It make my head spin.

Anything can become excessive or extreme, controlled by purest, or those who are constantly redefining their ideology to suite their own ends, while eternally battling those who are against them.

Personally, I neither hate, or love, socialism, or capitalism. Both are needed to round off the rough edges of the other, and to keep the other in check. Both need to balance each other off.

At 7/22/18 03:47 PM, Gario wrote: Popping in to (shockingly) agree that, yes, Bernie was 100% wrong to call both himself and Norway a Democratic socialist country - it's a friggin' social democracy. Because of his fuck-up, now most progressives that say they're democratic socialists are actually espousing social democracy ideas, which muddles and confuses the whole damn process, and will probably be something progressives will deal with for years to come.

Doesn't help that DSA is latching on and taking advantage of this fuck-up, trying to attach their ACTUAL Democratic Socialism to a party that's actually fighting for social democracy. I don't criticism Bernie much, but he really dropped the ball on that one and made the future of this movement more difficult than it needed to be.

Well i think if anything you need to clear it up and proclaim socialism as bad period. Aka it doesnt work, never will work. Capitalism + neo liberal laws or social programs as society infrastructure is however a workable version that is both productive and empathetic, basically as realistic as it can be.

But yeah Bernie comes across as someone i wont trust honestly. Its ok if you want social democracy but if a guy said he wants socialism aka democratic socialism, socialism or communism.. then i would not have anything with that guy to do with. Just saying unless he fixes this, if he doesnt have the spine to do it then i wont trust them.

At 7/23/18 09:07 AM, Crono321 wrote:
Well i think if anything you need to clear it up and proclaim socialism as bad period. Aka it doesnt work, never will work. Capitalism + neo liberal laws or social programs as society infrastructure is however a workable version that is both productive and empathetic, basically as realistic as it can be.

I'm afraid social programs are a form of Socialism (aka Government/Public owns and distributes means of production). Not much you can do about that - it works in limited doses. Just like Socialism doesn't work great for horizontal demand markets (non-essential goods, easily competitive essentials, etc.) Capitalism is just terrible for vertical demand markets (healthcare, infrastructure, etc.), as well as institutions where the profit motive produces awful results (military, police, prisons, etc.).

I mean, I think in some ways you agree with this, considering you're supporting Norway, here. At worst we're disagreeing with swmantics, which on the one hand I concede you're correct but on the other there's nothing we can do about it anymore, so...

To clarify, though, I agree that more pure forms of Socialism (such as actual Democratic Socialism) don't work; we don't yet have the resources for a post-capitalist economy, quite yet.

But yeah Bernie comes across as someone i wont trust honestly. Its ok if you want social democracy but if a guy said he wants socialism aka democratic socialism, socialism or communism.. then i would not have anything with that guy to do with.

I get you, and it's why I pretty clearly stated he fucked up mixing things up like that. While he says Democratic socialism he ends up supporting capitalism in practice. He defends socialism as I defined it above (e.g. social programs, and their expansion), and keeps pointing to the Nordic models as examples of what he wants to emulate. He's wrong to call them Democratic socialist countries (because they're not), but considering his actions and the policies he forms & supports he clearly means he supports social democracies.

To be fair, those terms do sound like they should be interchangeable.

Just saying unless he fixes this, if he doesnt have the spine to do it then i wont trust them.

I literally think it's a case of he's too old and stubborn to have his definitions redefined, which is a shame. Kind of wish his followers would fix it, though, but it's getting to the point where in America Democratic Socialism has two definitions: actual Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy. It sucks, because it's needlessly confusing, but nearly the whole country has been using the term in this manner for three years... It's reeeeally hard to change course at this point.

This guy does a fun rant on it, if you're interested, clarifying how the wrong word has been cemented over time.

Honestly, every topic about socialism in general is ridiculously confusing because we tend to throw that word around so many times, it has started to lose a lot of its meaning beyond the basic definition. It certainly doesn’t help that some people treat socialism as some sort of cure-all solution (a snake-oil salesman) or the worst thing ever, when the truth tends to be in between.

As for Bernie Sanders, I don’t really care about his gaffe, because fans of him and his policies are going to defend him (or barely criticize him on a negligible difference) and quickly move on, whereas his detractors will mentioned that he’s a loony, lost a step and so forth, business as usual. Does it affect the progressive movement as a whole? Maybe a little bit, but I would put more concern on a electing a neophyte representative who seems to be in way over her head, for now at least.

This guy does a fun rant on it, if you're interested, clarifying how the wrong word has been cemented over time.

Yeah i think he did pretty good with that video

At 7/22/18 03:47 PM, Gario wrote: Popping in to (shockingly) agree that, yes, Bernie was 100% wrong to call both himself and Norway a Democratic socialist country

It might also have something to do with a certain American tendency to scream "socialism!" at any idea that's even slightly left-of-centre.

At 7/22/18 06:17 AM, Crono321 wrote: I live here. I should know.

in fact i think United Kingdom is more on its way to become a socialist marxist heaven soon with hate speech laws they incorporate. Meaning example Rotterham incident, if this happend in USA even if you are brown you would be held responsible or well if there was a flaw the cops would be sued. Well apparently not in UK because Neo marxist beliefs is to fight the oppressors against the oppressed (even if the oppressed have bad ideas) see how flawed this idea is? Thats hate speech for you, if you were to object or complain well you are a racist and may be arrested. In compared to free speech where the only crime is to have facts wrong and be debunked.

So yeah, socialism is pretty much as terrible as the others i mentioned. What is your view?

Well you’re pretty spot on about the UK analysis although this same Common Purpose treatment, which has been here since the 60s, is spreading globally. First to America, particularly through the likes of Media and government, things like NATO. Common Purpose literally takes parts of it’s doctrine from The School of Cultural Marxism. (yes that’s a real thing)
They are pushing for a Communtarian socialist society. Because for the elites, it means more more more money. As the Public refuse to wake up to the likes of panama papers and paradise papers. People here are so brainwashed and poorly educated, our media can just spin out crazy stories like novichok...just making it up as they go along.
These traitors haven’t just ruined this country. They’re ruining our world.

Also, regarding Rotherham ... the reason our government cover this up is because they facilitate these gangs and this behaviour. It’s nothing to do with race. Racism was Trotsky-slang for Communist defector. There’s many elite paedophiles here, like we saw with BBC scandals. These people pray on children in places like care homes. It’s fucking disgusting and you’d be surprised how deep and how far it goes. This refugee influx is entirely deliberate and further distraction from their own crimes. Anyway, this shit is definitely happening the states too and just about anywhere that Common Purpose can reach. Apparently, warning people makes me a paranoid far-right conspiracy theorist. So whatever. Just keep ignoring it, until it’s on your doorstep and you realise it’s too late. In 20 years, America will be as bad if not worse than Britain is now.

Anyway, didn’t Norway like drop all that fluffy bollock nonsense because they realised all communist societies are aimless and burned out?

Down with the bourgeoisie, comrades!

Couldn't agree more with this. Both the Democrats and Republicans in the US have completely misunderstood the way the nordic countries work and just assume that we're a socialist haven. Sure Norway is extremely socialist compared to the US, but what Norway really has done is incorporating the best parts of socialism and captialism into one, mixed system, and that's what we call it over here.

I do want to correct you on something though. Socialism is not evil by any means, it's just a very flawed system just like how capitalism is a flawed system. There's no black and white when it comes to these things, both systems have positive and negative sides, and imo all countries should try and find the best sides and incorporate it into one system like what the Nordic countries and, Japan to a certain extent, have done.

I just had a thought. I keep hearing stories about how the younger generations are warming up to socialism as an alternative to what we have now, even if it is glorified cherry picking of the good parts and being vague on the actual mechanics. It kind of makes wonder where do they do their actual polling of 18-35 year old on their political leanings, but then it hit me that the worst crimes that were committed under the name of socialism happened well before they were born.

Sure, you can learn the bodycounts on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and so on, but no one under the age of 45 does remember those events firsthand, (unless they happened to be there when they were very young, but that’s a different issue) and since the fall of the Soviet Union, various flavors of socialism (social democracy being the most prominent) have been promoted as a positive. I would also point out with the rise of the Internet, a lot more people have learned about countries like Denmark and Germany having public systems (universal health care, paid maternity leave) that the U.S. doesn’t have, and wonder why we don’t have those.

Contrary to popular opinion, the main reasons why the U.S. doesn’t have same government systems that the Nordic countries have is because we emerged out of WW2 as the world’s biggest superpower alongside the Soviet Union, while most of Europe in general practically had to hit the reset button with the government and society as a whole, which allowed systems like UHC to take root once they got back on their feet. Plus, most of those countries either have small, homogeneous populations and/or have very little responsibilities on geopolitical matters, which means that the burden of fixing most of the world’s ills doesn’t fall on their shoulders the way it does ours. It’s easy to take care of a country’s people when the population of said country is smaller than most megacities and has very little clout on the global stage.

But to give final view point. You should never vote for a democratic socialist, i dont care if that guy thinks he got it mixed up with whatever something else is. If he is socialist, democratic socialist, communist = same stuff. Then yeah dont vote if they cant be clear on that. If one cant get it right then yeah dont vote for that person, period.

At 7/26/18 02:54 PM, orangebomb wrote: Plus, most of those countries either have small, homogeneous populations and/or have very little responsibilities on geopolitical matters, which means that the burden of fixing most of the world’s ills doesn’t fall on their shoulders the way it does ours. It’s easy to take care of a country’s people when the population of said country is smaller than most megacities and has very little clout on the global stage.

On homogeneous populations... Yeah, kinda gotta call that unsubstantiated bologna. It's often used by white nationalists when one points out that the size of a country doesn't matter when implimenting these policies, but rather the GDP (which the USA dominates other countries in, currently). I'm not calling you a supremacist or anything, by the way, it's just where that argument typically derives from, in my humble experience.

As far as global responsibilities hindering the implimentation of social democratic ideas, you're 100% correct on that front - that's why most progressives are deeply anti-war and anti-expansionist, and tend to favor policies such as "Have other countries pay more into NATO", "Cut down on worldwide military operations and bases" and "For the love of God, please stop increasing the military budget by levels that would literally pay for every program ever proposed every few years". Just sayin' these things are all tied together.

From what I've read you have the highest standard of living. And you birthed Dimmu Borgir with symphonic black metal.

So you must be doing something right.

At 7/26/18 03:26 PM, Gario wrote: On homogeneous populations... Yeah, kinda gotta call that unsubstantiated bologna. It's often used by white nationalists when one points out that the size of a country doesn't matter when implimenting these policies, but rather the GDP (which the USA dominates other countries in, currently). I'm not calling you a supremacist or anything, by the way, it's just where that argument typically derives from, in my humble experience.

I was stating from a purely objective view and not from a point of racism, and I do admit that I know nothing about immigration into the Nordic countries. (other than the Schengen Area)

Maybe it’s because almost every story other than Anders Brevrik that comes out of the Nordic countries comes off as too good to be true and everyone there is happy as a clam, (I know that’s not the case, but still) whereas every story that comes out of here comes off as miserable, egomaniacal and so on, and that doesn’t include Trump. I’ve always been a skeptic when it comes to this kind of stuff because some people think that this is a quick fix with a change in policy, when I know that America takes their time on these kinds of things.

As far as global responsibilities hindering the implimentation of social democratic ideas, you're 100% correct on that front - that's why most progressives are deeply anti-war and anti-expansionist, and tend to favor policies such as "Have other countries pay more into NATO", "Cut down on worldwide military operations and bases" and "For the love of God, please stop increasing the military budget by levels that would literally pay for every program ever proposed every few years". Just sayin' these things are all tied together.

I get that.

Although this sounds like a no-win situation in where we pull back from NATO, then we be accused of leaving our allies behind while Russia gains influence in Eastern Europe, but if went with what we did in the past, then we end up looking like a big bully again, regardless of context. I’m sure you understand that there does need between a balance between those two situations, but I would also put the onus on people who decry us for our worldwide military operations while other countries ride our coattails, if that.

For example, we didn’t do much other than the occasional bombing raid and technical support in the 2011 Libyan Civil War and people still flipped their shit on us, in spite of France doing most of the heavy lifting there. I get the fact we can’t please everyone, but actually doing what we should be doing as part of NATO at the time, what gives?

At 7/26/18 06:52 PM, orangebomb wrote:
For example, we didn’t do much other than the occasional bombing raid and technical support in the 2011 Libyan Civil War and people still flipped their shit on us, in spite of France doing most of the heavy lifting there.

TBH I though the USA handling of Lybia was one of the few times we did things correctly - let the UN dictate what our actions should be under their watch, and we deliver support.

You guessed right, though, I don't support pulling out of NATO or anything, just that we pay, like, 2% of our military budget rather than 3%, and we trim the military fat (slice down to... $450m/year, maybe?). Just get a better life balance, there.

At 7/22/18 06:17 AM, Crono321 wrote: I live here. I should know.

What i hate with American politics is they listen to that dunce Bernie and think he knows everything. Socialism is as evil as fascism, communism and neo nazism.

Yes, I hated Bernie Sanders the DNC fucked him, however, both of those candidates of the Democratic ticket would have bad. Hilary would have racked the national debt to 50 trillion. Bernie Sanders if he was president would have spent so much the debt would be in quadrillions. His fans should have known (liberals, people that don't work/pay taxes, Antifa etc) socialism doesn't work. e.g. Venezuela and every country that was run by dictators.

So yeah, socialism is pretty much as terrible as the others i mentioned. What is your view?

I agree socialism is a weak form of communism, fascism is worse because its a dictator controlled communism, neo nazi I won't debate that.

I don't understand what's so bad about communism.

Social programs ARE socialism.

At 8/14/18 12:23 PM, Aethelfeld wrote: I don't understand what's so bad about communism.

Human nature gets in the way.

At 7/27/18 04:32 AM, Trish-Loves-Tubgirl wrote:
Yes, I hated Bernie Sanders the DNC fucked him, however, both of those candidates of the Democratic ticket would have bad. Hilary would have racked the national debt to 50 trillion. Bernie Sanders if he was president would have spent so much the debt would be in quadrillions.

Deficits have always raised under Republican presidents, and they've always fallen under Democratic presidents. The tax cut that our current president signed into law cuts a hole into our deficit so large every single program Bernie proposed (free tuition, jobs for all, etc.) would fit in it, and we'd still be $500B less in the hole than we are now (his programs all had about a $1T cost compared to the tax cut's $1.5 - 2T).

So no, if you care about responsibly funding our government you must avoid Republicans like the plague, as they starve the government with their reckless tax cuts (exclusively for the very wealthy) and bloated military spending (Christ, the price tag on a space force, guys). Even bad Democrats like the Clintons and far left wing independents like Bernie handle deficit better than Republicans do - they're statistically the worst, and thry have been for nearly half a century.

At 8/14/18 12:23 PM, Aethelfeld wrote: I don't understand what's so bad about communism.

If I didn’t know any better, I’ve would’ve guessed that you’re not listening to anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

Communism is the equivalent of pouring cold water on someone with a burn, you’re just going to do more damage, especially if it is sudden and uncompromising. It took Russia nearly 30 years and millions of deaths from war and gulags to become a powerful “communist” state, it took China just as long and more deaths to do the same thing, only to revert back to state capitalism once Deng Xiopeng took control.

The thing about socialism (or socialist policies in general) is that it requires most everyone to get along and pitch in their fair share, which sounds easy enough on paper, but when you have to deal with many diverse economical backgrounds and lifestyles, things get really tricky with a balancing act. Folks who live in West Virginia aren’t going to care too much about lifestyles in Silicon Valley and vice versa, and have entirely different problems that can’t be solved with a total blanket solution.

Should there be some common ground that both sides can agree upon? Yes there is, and for a long time we tried to do just that, but it only works when one side doesn’t take their ball and go home while the other side schemes a way to take it back.

I think tribes are better. Yugoslavia was a rich communist country. It's just they didn't want it anymore. Everyone is poor in big countries, except for the very rich, in the long run.

At 8/14/18 07:12 PM, Aethelfeld wrote: I think tribes are better. Yugoslavia was a rich communist country. It's just they didn't want it anymore. Everyone is poor in big countries, except for the very rich, in the long run.

oh my god. That's incredibly misinformed. Yugoslavia loved their [quite fair] independent proper Communism, until the EU basically annexed and extorted them. They were a happy peaceful prosperous country, until our war machine infiltrated them and exploited them. Turning their Communism into the same shit they're trying to sell us as Socialism.

At 8/14/18 12:25 PM, Aethelfeld wrote: Social programs ARE socialism.

Also that's simply not true. The UK has never been socialist. We invented and pioneered many social programs. Australia is not socialist and has many similar social programs. Norway is not socialist but has social programs. Most Nordic countries. Real democracies should be operating on a social level. A Social Democracy is about the fairest capitalist democracy you can have -- as it eliminates the greed factor. It is about a fair distribution and implementation of wealth. Ideally, no extreme poverty and therefore no extreme wealth. It promotes the idea of sharing and giving back to the community, helping others whilst still helping yourself if you so choose to. Nullifying the very extreme ends of the scale . Better for everyone.

Quoting another post of mine now; learn the difference between Democratic Socialism and a Social Democracy. It's a very deliberately confusing pair of terminologies, which could easily be interpreted as the same thing. Typical Common Purpose, Demos, OpenSociety tactics (who are the sort of companies pushing "socialist" agendas).

Democratic Socialist AKA Democratic Socialism: social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, achieved through democratic, non-revolutionary methods. Based on the guiding principle: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Social Democrat AKA Social Democracy: a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy; as well as a policy regime involving a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.

Regardless. Socialism - in theory - is good. You're not wrong, for learning about it yourself and going "actually, that's pretty cool". Finland did the same but soon learned it's not compatible with our current empires and society.

In practice, the big Western countries are NOT getting socialism anytime soon, in any way shape or form. Corbyn and Bernie are not real socialists. They might think they are but their parties stand for Communitarianism. Which is what we're being sold as Socialism. It's a total sham. Communitarianism is inhumane. It's Totalitarian Communism. Terrifying stuff. Handing legal power to local authorities. It's a disaster waiting to happen. A nice tidy civil war, all packaged neatly into something you pay tax for.

You want to be supporting and spreading awareness that Social Democracy is the true winner. "Socialism" has just been hijacked by the evil war machine.

At 8/14/18 12:23 PM, Aethelfeld wrote: I don't understand what's so bad about communism.

Oh, right.

Here you go [warning, graphic imagery in this documentary]

it's not communism that's bad, it's some of the leaders, just like islamic countries aren't bad, they just have bad leaders.

At 7/22/18 06:17 AM, Crono321 wrote: I live here. I should know.

What i hate with American politics is they listen to that dunce Bernie and think he knows everything. Socialism is as evil as fascism, communism and neo nazism.

Now some may consider communism and socialism less evil than fascism and nazism because atleast it doesnt seem to go into "not looking after the weak". The only type of evil it tries to go with is love as in "ignore reality as we see it" thats a form of hate too really. So both are hateful systems. If anything i would recommend following Japan's infrastructure form of government. They have zero socialism but what they do have is "capitalism + neo liberal laws as health care and welfare" its both productive and also empathetic system of infrastructure of government. So yeah i'd go with that. Either way true love is to care about humanity and wish for a better world for future generations

But here is the thing. Norway is not democratic socialist, we are not even socialist that is a big lie by Bernie.

What we are is a social democracy. To sum it up, social democracy means you use democracy to incorporate social programs like welfare, health care etc, but capitalism is the main model. Norway was insanely poor before americans helped us find oil btw. So yeah, that is capitalism for you for making country rich and productive. In either case, now to explain democratic socialism, that means using democracy purely to implement socialism "kinda what venezuela is".

So if you americans think its bad now "which i dont think, i mean its not terrible but its not a safety net i guess" well guess what, imagine how its gonna look like all red, the bolshevik revolution. Yeah its gonna look like crap.

in fact i think United Kingdom is more on its way to become a socialist marxist heaven soon with hate speech laws they incorporate. Meaning example Rotterham incident, if this happend in USA even if you are brown you would be held responsible or well if there was a flaw the cops would be sued. Well apparently not in UK because Neo marxist beliefs is to fight the oppressors against the oppressed (even if the oppressed have bad ideas) see how flawed this idea is? Thats hate speech for you, if you were to object or complain well you are a racist and may be arrested. In compared to free speech where the only crime is to have facts wrong and be debunked.

So yeah, socialism is pretty much as terrible as the others i mentioned. What is your view?

Bernie Sanders is a product of the 1960s, and caught in a time warp. All he tries to do with the Norway comparisons is show how you guys have a safety net for those not working (which not explaining how/why/limitations of its core fundamentals), and that people aren't dying from lack of healthcare. He's just in his 80s and doing it poorly. Again, he comes from the Saul Alinksy school of thought.

America is in neo-fascism, with a splash of totalitarian imperialism for taste. Keep in mind there are several "Americas"; for black folks its starting to look again like the Reconstruction era (1866-1966) that spawned such illustrious policies as Poll Tax, Grandfather Clause, and Jim Crown. Don't forget the Plessy v. Ferguson decision that created "Separate But Equal". Native Americans are not in any better shape, and the plan is to kill them off so they can march black folks to the Rez and keep them in there by 2050, but that's an entirely different discussion. Latinos are getting deported in practices not seen since slavery (separating kids from parents) - and Dotard is trying to import white illegals from Scandinavian countries such as yours to Make America White Again.

So in terms of how Americans (a term Americans don't even use since you're identified not as a countryman but by your race even on your birth certificate), are thinking it's a split. White folks bitching about being "victims of systemic opporession" ala the Trumpistas are begging their idiot leader Dotard to give them those good jobs that killed them off from black lung disease working in the coal mines, while he FLAGRANTLY ignores everybody but the poor, dumb, white masses because of the Hitler hero worship. And granted, the rest of us know he doesn't give a shit about them and is using them, but his 40% is willing to commit to him so fanatically (see Q-Anon) on this suicide mission America either is going to have to face up to sins or go into a civil war.

People unfortunately don't know what fascism looks like, and talks of "socialism", "communism", and democracy are loose terms used in propaganda to create fear into the lesser informed population still jumping from reds possibly in the closet (which is why Bernie gets so much grief and does little to correctly explain his side).

Keep in mind America is a 2 party system where people don't understand how government works, and don't get their vote HAS NEVER ELECTED A PRESIDENT (the electoral college of unknown persons appointed by the president does that), or that the lineage of presidency is a monarchy (as all the presidents but 2 were related).