I don't know who Trump listens to (besides Fox new), but he has decided to back out of the Iran deal. The only country that is screaming their heads off, and claiming that Iran is not compliant on the deal, is Israel, particularly Benjamin Netanyahu, who the international community is treating as the "boy who cried wolf". Netanyahu, who, in my opinion, is no different than the Iran's Supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, in spouting about how they hate the other country, and wants to see it bombed, has been claiming that Iran is one step closer to a nuke for the last 20 to 30 years. All this just seems to be a pretext to war, with Israel wanting to start something in the middle East against Iran, and drag the US into it, leading to a huge war there.

Hopefully, former secretary of state, John Kerry can defuse the situation in Iran, and underscore Trump, if Trump doesn't try to hang him for treason.

At 5/8/18 05:19 PM, Sause wrote: Now Iran can ignore the deal they were already ignoring

Prove it. Iran was doin' fine on their part, save for when we breached the deal ourselves by adding sanctions against them first and they retaliated

Otherwise, stop regurgitating bad faith assumptions from warhawks.

On topic, this was expected yet no less horrifying. Dismantling nukes in Iran was the single best thing to come from the last administration, and there's a chance this undoes that entirely. Here's hoping the other five nations strengthen their part in the deal, leaving our place in it inconsequentail moving forward.

To be honest, any thinking person can see that our role in this will be inconsequential if the other five stick with Iran; we already unfroze their assets and gave their billions back to them (we can't "retake" those billions in Iranian assets), and if other countries or the EU don't sanction Iran along with USA then our actions will have little bite. This just means we can't inspect Irans facilities anymore. Outside of the threat of war (which fuck me that's PROBABLY where this Neocon administration is headed) we don't have any negotiating power to come back into such a deal.

Republicans in this administration are fucking stupid as hell.

At 5/8/18 06:09 PM, Gario wrote:

At 5/8/18 05:19 PM, Sause wrote: Now Iran can ignore the deal they were already ignoring

Prove it. Iran was doin' fine on their part, save for when we breached the deal ourselves by adding sanctions against them first and they retaliated

Well, they're probably the same people who still believe that Iraq had the capacity to have, and build, WMDs, even after Bush admitted that it was his greatest regret that he couldn't find them near the end of his administration. Now, they going with what one country, and our warmonger/liar in chief, says. History repeats itself.

Got some great land under a bridge to sale. Don't mind the smell, that's just clean air. Hook, line, and sinker.

Dystopia justifies the means, I guess.

Hey, lets complain about how the Chinese are exerting influence across the world while we sabotage everything we do and ruin whatever shred of trust we have in the world.

But hey, it's just Obama's fault somehow.

Pretty much explains what could unfold over the breaking of the deal, though, it doesn't mention the rise in gas prices from it.

At 5/9/18 04:19 PM, Sause wrote:

At 5/9/18 03:00 PM, Entice wrote: I will never understand the mentality that the USA and the UK don't have control over their affairs, just because their leaders attempt to cooperate with other nations. It's like they want a return to mercantilism.

The US has complex political procedures on purpose. It was intended that way so that nobody in the dead of night could sneak through some sinister legislation, or somebody ruled by emotion suddenly does something swift and dramatic.

Actually, they do that all the time, introducing legislature that often goes under the radar, without people noticing it, because they either sneak it into a larger bill, or use some event, like Trump breaking the Iran agreement, as cover to try and pass something, like the recently noticed activity to weaken the Dodd Frank act - because the financial sector demands it with their campaign contribution. Or they just do the most direct approach, counting on partisan ideology and the average citizens ignorance, to market a legislature that sound like it will benefit everyone, when it just mostly benefits small groups - like the recent Tax reform, which has done little to help the average American out, other than growing the national debt and making the wealthy wealthier - including foreign investors.

At 5/9/18 08:41 PM, JosephStarr wrote: Is it just me, or does Israel seem like the aggressive and problematic country in this situation?
They're the ones propping up tensions, demanding that deals be pulled, occupying neighboring countries, and accusing other nations.

Yet we keep kissing their asses but we cast suspicion on the surrounding nations at the same time.
They seem like the suspicious ones here, not Iran.

It's because Israel's a Jewish state that kisses our asses and the other nations are Muslim states isn't it?
(It's either that or we made a mistake by propping them up all these decades but don't want to admit it, so we're doubling down hoping we can fix the problem we started.)

When you have two countries with hardliners in charge of them, who use each other for why they hate the other, it's hard to tell who is worse. It doesn't help that Russia is cultivating allies in the region, in opposition to US allies there. Iran is a close ally to Russia, which has been fighting ISIS in Iraq, and Syria, and cultivating closer relations with those countries, which Israel, and Saudi Arabia, sees as a threat to them.

Unfortunately, people in Western countries are tired of the recent wars in the middle east, with a populist isolationist movement going on in them that seeks to keep out, or withdraw, their armed forces from that region, making Israel feel isolated and alone. This may be why they are being pro-active, attacking, and making threats against Iranian forces in Syria, while torpedoing the Iran nuclear agreement with doom and gloom rhetoric, in an effort to get Western powers back into the middle east, and to isolate, or destroy Iran. But, even if a full blown war erupts, Israel, who has alienated a lot of it''s neighbors, may be alone, with Saudi Arabia, in that conflict, with only weapon support from the US.

conflictwe often rely on the Intel that Israel supplies, or use it to justify our actions there, because they want us there, in the Middle East. So, yes,it does feel that Israel is trying to do their darnedest to make things worse, and to escalate tensions

At 5/9/18 09:33 PM, EdyKel wrote:
But, even if a full blown war erupts, Israel, who has alienated a lot of it''s neighbors, may be alone, with Saudi Arabia, in that conflict, with only weapon support from the US.

Good, but israel shouldn't even get our weapons.

Israel has been lying and playing to it's ultra orthodox groups for decades, and has only hurt the position of the US and everyone around them. They along with the west also routinely give them a free pass on all the same shit we criticize Iran and other human rights abusers for.

People like Netanyahu, the ultra orthodox, settlers, and all those who support them are all scum and deserve all that comes to them.

The US can only benefit from having more options for allies. but now that the Manchild in chief left the Iran deal, our position in the world will only get weaker.

The most ironic part to all of this is that Iran doesn't even need nukes, they made the US and the west bleed enough, and gained all they needed when we were dumb enough to invade iraq and dissolve the Baathist. Nukes mean little to their, and are actually bad with their current strategy.

EDIT: Oh, but Trump is really showing it to the establishment, even though he is just reiterating the position of the establishment for the benefit of the rich and other countries.

At 5/10/18 11:45 AM, Heretic-Anchorite wrote:

At 5/9/18 09:33 PM, EdyKel wrote:
But, even if a full blown war erupts, Israel, who has alienated a lot of it''s neighbors, may be alone, with Saudi Arabia, in that conflict, with only weapon support from the US.

Good, but israel shouldn't even get our weapons.

Israel has been lying and playing to it's ultra orthodox groups for decades, and has only hurt the position of the US and everyone around them. They along with the west also routinely give them a free pass on all the same shit we criticize Iran and other human rights abusers for.

People like Netanyahu, the ultra orthodox, settlers, and all those who support them are all scum and deserve all that comes to them.

The US can only benefit from having more options for allies. but now that the Manchild in chief left the Iran deal, our position in the world will only get weaker.

The most ironic part to all of this is that Iran doesn't even need nukes, they made the US and the west bleed enough, and gained all they needed when we were dumb enough to invade iraq and dissolve the Baathist. Nukes mean little to their, and are actually bad with their current strategy.

EDIT: Oh, but Trump is really showing it to the establishment, even though he is just reiterating the position of the establishment for the benefit of the rich and other countries.

Trump is trying to revive the arms race - he keeps bringing that up. He doesn't give a shit about other countries, or being involved in land wars, he just wants to sell American made weapons to foreign countries, while building up this country's own defenses. That's one of the reasons why he admires Russia, because he perceives them as strong, and helping his aims for an arms race by creating conflict in the world, which opens up opportunity for US arms business. He doesn't care about allies, or creating better relations with them, they can burn for all he cares, unless they buy American arms. That's what Israel is to him, an opportunity to sell american made arms.

Yes, it's true that Trump is very much an establishment politician, but in a slightly different direction from his predecessors. He doesn't believe in policing the world, or globalization, to keep trade routes, and foreign markets, open through diplomacy, or through the use of armed forces. But he panders to the wealthy and large corporation through relaxing, or getting rid, of regulations, or reducing their tax burden, which have not, and never will, trickle down to most of the populations, but only secures corruption, and power, for those who can afford it. Trump wants to make the country like Russia, an oligarchy, if he can destroy enough trust in his critics, and do enough damage to the checks and balances in government, while pandering toward those who confuse tyranny for freedom to back his goals up. Yes, Trump is a very dangerous type of establishment politician.

Kaboom! Israeli airstrikes target Iranian military installations in Syria

Now, how will Iran respond?

At 5/10/18 03:12 PM, EdyKel wrote: Kaboom! Israeli airstrikes target Iranian military installations in Syria

Now, how will Iran respond?

I imagine in much the same way Syria, the PLO, and the Islamic jihad organization have in the past. Let's hope we stay out of it and don't get a barracks or embassy bombed.

At 5/10/18 03:12 PM, EdyKel wrote: Kaboom! Israeli airstrikes target Iranian military installations in Syria

Now, how will Iran respond?

Sending Hamas and Hezbollah after us, like they've done for the last decade(s). We're utterly sick of fighting their proxie.

At 5/10/18 03:12 PM, EdyKel wrote: Kaboom! Israeli airstrikes target Iranian military installations in Syria

Now, how will Iran respond?

If they were intelligent, they'd garner the support from Russia and pose a tit-for-tat counterstrike against Israel. That way it puts Israel in the position of not only starting a war with Iran, but also a war with Russia itself, which the USA would be slightly more wary of getting involved with (though we probably still would, because our government is filled with warhawks and morons).

Otherwise, either they let Israel do what it wants knowing the USA would fully back them in a full scale war if they retaliated (it's why Israel was so goddamn keen on getting us out of that deal), or they would attack Israel, which would cry like little bitches to us and ask us to fight their war for them (which we would because of course we would).

I hate blaming Israel for shit, but fucking hell they are reeeeally fucking things up at a rapid pace over there.

At 5/10/18 04:57 PM, satanbrain wrote:

At 5/10/18 03:12 PM, EdyKel wrote: Kaboom! Israeli airstrikes target Iranian military installations in Syria

Now, how will Iran respond?

Sending Hamas and Hezbollah after us, like they've done for the last decade(s). We're utterly sick of fighting their proxie.

You know, given Israel's track record over unreliable intel over the years has only led a lot of people to be very skeptical of anything they say about other countries in that region. I see more propaganda than than truth from Israel, who often portrays a narrative that they are the victims, while often using violence, and assassinations, and other pro-active policies, against countries/land, and groups, that they claim are trying to hurt them. It a form of terrorism in itself, which few Israelis would want to admit.

As an outsider, it's hard to find much sympathy with Israel, as they seem to use terrorist attacks to do 100 times the damage in retaliation to their neighbors when they happen, specifically Palestinian land, while illegally taking more land, and building illegal settlements on them, which only infuriates, and fuels, further hate towards their country. It doesn't help international relations, or mend relations with neighboring lands, when Israeli soldiers purposely kills non-threatening civilians. And it doesn't help create peace between their Palestinian neighbors when Israel doesn't want a two state solution. Not to mention the lopsided water situation where Israel controls it, leaving Palestine land often dry.

I know Iran is your big bad wolf, but they are not the only country that are funding those terrorist groups. A lot of funding comes from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or the west bank, but I doubt that Israel will go after the Saudis for it.

What bothers me the most, besides the lack of effort on the part of Israel to pursue anytime of peace in the Middle East, is this lopsided relationship that they have with the US. It's like the US is Israel's dog, and when they yank the chain we come a running, over spats, or aggressive moves, or over false Intel, they do. And for what? We treat Israel better than some of our own states, or even US territories like Puerto Rico. We give billions in aid every year to Israel. It's often joked among Arab countries that Israel is the 51st country of the US, which is one of the reasons why we were attacked on 9-11, with many Israels happy about it, because they knew it could bring us to the Middle East.

So, if Israel starts a war with Iran, then they should be on their own. I would be against the US intervening to save their ass, like we have done so often.

At 5/10/18 11:38 PM, EdyKel wrote: You know, given Israel's track record over unreliable intel

Lack of proof.

It a form of terrorism in itself, which few Israelis would want to admit.

Unlike killing israeli civilians, which is perfectly fine. You are confusing self defense with terrorism.

As an outsider, it's hard to find much sympathy with Israel, as they seem to use terrorist attacks to do 100 times the damage

Proof.

in retaliation to their neighbors when they happen,

Again, we are hurting the responsible. Do not fault us when the responsible are controlling an entire region (gaza), whose population elected democratically.

specifically Palestinian land, while illegally taking more land, and building illegal settlements on them, which only infuriates, and fuels, further hate towards their country.

I didn't know we still had settlements in gaza and that lebanon is palestine. We do not care about the hate 'generated' by us. We are about our allies.

It doesn't help international relations,

You forget who the US president is.

or mend relations with neighboring lands,

We are becoming better friends with Saudia. Or did you miss that?

when Israeli soldiers purposely kills non-threatening civilians.

Proof.

And it doesn't help create peace between their Palestinian neighbors when Israel doesn't want a two state solution. Not to mention the

Seems nobody wants it, to be fair.

lopsided water situation where Israel controls it, leaving Palestine land often dry.

Proof.

I know Iran is your big bad wolf,

That funds and trains an organization that call for the annihilation of my people, yes.

but they are not the only country that are funding those terrorist groups. A lot of funding comes from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or the west bank, but I doubt that Israel will go after the Saudis for it.

True, but their contribution is smaller and they're less threatening.

What bothers me the most, besides the lack of effort on the part of Israel to pursue anytime of peace in the Middle East,

Really?

is this lopsided relationship that they have with the US. It's like the US is Israel's dog,

It's like US isn't blind and dead like the rest of the world.

and when they yank the chain we come a running, over spats, or aggressive moves, or over false Intel, they do. And for what? We treat Israel better than some of our own states, or even US territories like Puerto Rico.

Do you?

We give billions in aid every year to Israel.

And to Afghanistan, and to Iraq, and to Egypt and even some to the palestinians.

It's often joked among Arab countries that Israel is the 51st country of the US, which is one of the reasons why we were attacked on 9-11,

One of the reasons you were attacked is that your existence is reviled, the Great Satan.

with many Israels happy about it, because they knew it could bring us to the Middle East.

What could bring you is shared interests.

So, if Israel starts a war with Iran, then they should be on their own.

Iran wars us the day they funded Hezbollah (and Hamas).

I would be against the US intervening to save their ass, like we have done so often.

Would you lose your best ally in the middle east only to punish Israel? Would you wait until they attack a NATO member or execute a terrorist action against your citizens (again)?

At 5/11/18 02:23 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 5/10/18 11:38 PM, EdyKel wrote: You know, given Israel's track record over unreliable intel

Lack of proof.

I think your corupt PM who has claimed that Iran is always one step closer to a nuke for the last 30 years is proof enough.

It a form of terrorism in itself, which few Israelis would want to admit.

Unlike killing israeli civilians, which is perfectly fine. You are confusing self defense with terrorism.

Son, bend over and shove this right back up your ass where it belongs. I'm not moved by your victim complex, especially for a religious group who forcefully took over their cousins lands, claiming they owned it about 2000 years ago, and then shoving out their cousins who didn't agree to live under their democratic theocracy.

As an outsider, it's hard to find much sympathy with Israel, as they seem to use terrorist attacks to do 100 times the damage

Proof.

The recent airstrikes, being one of them. Or this. Or this. I mean, I can keep on posting this stuff. So,while you can point out how a few innocent Israeli citizens were killed by a terrorist attack I can easily point to dozens to hundreds of Palestinians, or Muslims, civilians killed in by Israeli forces. So, take off the box you have on your head, and recognize the big difference.

in retaliation to their neighbors when they happen,

Again, we are hurting the responsible. Do not fault us when the responsible are controlling an entire region (gaza), whose population elected democratically.

Responsible? Last time I looked, Israel was a democratic theocracy, where only Jews could be elected to office, despite the Christians and sizable Muslims populations there - and that's only for the Israeli state.

specifically Palestinian land, while illegally taking more land, and building illegal settlements on them, which only infuriates, and fuels, further hate towards their country.

I didn't know we still had settlements in gaza and that lebanon is palestine. We do not care about the hate 'generated' by us. We are about our allies.

Ho hum. And more.

It doesn't help international relations,

You forget who the US president is.

No. I'm reminded of his idiocy every day.

or mend relations with neighboring lands,

We are becoming better friends with Saudia. Or did you miss that?

Only because they hate Iran due to the bloody history of the Sunni and Shia muslims of the region , along with being another oil competitor in the region. But even the Saudis are not happy about the recent decision by Trump over Israel. It also doesn't change the fact that a lot of Saudis funded Al Qaeda, who attacked the US on 9-11, who, among many of their grievances behind those attacks, was because of our support for Israel - even though Saudi Arabia was a close US ally.

when Israeli soldiers purposely kills non-threatening civilians.

Proof.

I don't know how sheltered you are, or just living in denial, but it's the stuff that makes up the news. A more recent one.

And it doesn't help create peace between their Palestinian neighbors when Israel doesn't want a two state solution. Not to mention the

Seems nobody wants it, to be fair.

Son, that's just an excuse to make things worse, which is why you are justifying, or making denials, over things that Israel is doing to make the situation a perpetual cycle of violence and hate over there. As I said before, Israel is no different than Iran, maybe worse, because they are so stuck in their mindset that they are always in the right.

lopsided water situation where Israel controls it, leaving Palestine land often dry.

Proof.

I read too many articles (and even linked one), and seen too many news segment, to dismiss it. And given Israel's history in the region, and your recent comments about fairness, I'm inclined to believe the reports over your denial.

I know Iran is your big bad wolf,

That funds and trains an organization that call for the annihilation of my people, yes.

Guess what, so does Israel against Iran. And I already pointed out that other countries fund those organization to, including Saudi Arabia. So, while Iran may be the most vocal about hating Israel, and vice versa, I will have to require proof from you that they are the biggest funder, and trainers, for those organizations, and it can't be from Israel Intel, but from another 3rd party country that support your argument.

is this lopsided relationship that they have with the US. It's like the US is Israel's dog,

It's like US isn't blind and dead like the rest of the world.

No, it's not that they are blind, because they know how unreliable Israel is when it comes to intel, or how they seem to make things worse in the region, it just that they don't agree with Israel trying to make things worse in the region with their unrelenting hard line actions and rhetoric. The only reason the US supports Israel is that they are one of our biggest customer when it comes to buying American arms (though we fund much of it with aid), but it's mostly about trying to appease them, and keep them from doing something stupid to create further tension in the region which might lead to a war.

and when they yank the chain we come a running, over spats, or aggressive moves, or over false Intel, they do. And for what? We treat Israel better than some of our own states, or even US territories like Puerto Rico.

Do you?

Oh, yes, especially now.

We give billions in aid every year to Israel.

And to Afghanistan, and to Iraq, and to Egypt and even some to the palestinians.

Those other countries only receive a fraction, compared to Israel. And we give money to them to try and keep their markets, and resources, open to us. It's the only reason why we are in the Middle East.

It's often joked among Arab countries that Israel is the 51st country of the US, which is one of the reasons why we were attacked on 9-11,

One of the reasons you were attacked is that your existence is reviled, the Great Satan.

Yes, because of our close relationship to Israel.

with many Israels happy about it, because they knew it could bring us to the Middle East.

What could bring you is shared interests.

What shared interest. At the time, we had an administration, and president, with close ties to Israel, and Sadi Arabia, along with close ties to companies that wanted war, because of financial interests it represented. It led to one of the worst wars in US history, and the probable reason why this country won't send any significant US forces to aid Israel if war breaks out in the region.

So, if Israel starts a war with Iran, then they should be on their own.

Iran wars us the day they funded Hezbollah (and Hamas).

Really. Or was it because they supported a dictator, who abused his own people, to appease Israel and the West with lucrative oil trade, which led to a revolution that installed the current theocracy.

I would be against the US intervening to save their ass, like we have done so often.

Would you lose your best ally in the middle east only to punish Israel? Would you wait until they attack a NATO member or execute a terrorist action against your citizens (again)?

Our ally is the reason why this country was attacked, along with our constant interference in the region for the past 80 years, which has only made things worse, not better.

At 5/11/18 01:43 PM, EdyKel wrote:

At 5/11/18 02:23 AM, satanbrain wrote: Lack of proof.

I think your corupt PM who has claimed that Iran is always one step closer to a nuke for the last 30 years is proof enough.

Did he? Or they? Lack of proof still.

Unlike killing israeli civilians, which is perfectly fine. You are confusing self defense with terrorism.

Son, bend over and shove this right back up your ass where it belongs. I'm not moved by your victim complex,

I'm not moved by your 'Israel controls the US government' complex.

especially for a religious group who forcefully took over their cousins lands,

Ethnic group, but that is another for thread.

claiming they owned it about 2000 years ago,

Proving we owned it.

and then shoving out their cousins

Lack of proof again.

who didn't agree to live under their democratic theocracy.

Theocracy? "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." I doubt this happens.

The recent airstrikes, being one of them.

Self defense.

Or this.

1116 killed. 709 of those terrorists. Using buildings as terrorists' havens or ammunition/rockets warehouses tend to get them destroyed.

Or this.

Interesting. The life of an israeli baby is worth 100 times less than a house? "seem to use terrorist attacks to do 100 times the damage".

I mean, I can keep on posting this stuff.

Do go on, by all means.

So,while you can point out how a few innocent Israeli citizens

Few?

were killed by a terrorist attack I can easily point to dozens to hundreds of Palestinians, or Muslims, civilians killed in by Israeli forces.

During attacks purposed to stop the very terrorists.

Responsible? Last time I looked, Israel was a democratic theocracy,

Can you prove this, please?

where only Jews could be elected to office,

Proof.

Ho hum. And more.

It doesn't contradict the fact no settlements are in gaza (or lebanon).

I don't know how sheltered you are, or just living in denial, but it's the stuff that makes up the news.

Some of their claims are credible. Some aren't. You ignored an important part, "Israeli military officials (alongside Amnesty International) say that Hamas employed human shields and hid rocket launchers, weapons and fighters in schools, mosques and hospitals."

A more recent one.

I don't know how sheltered you are, or just living in denial, but a country has a right to defend its borders from those who would infiltrate it. Ignoring warnings when nearing the enemy's fence has consequences.

As I said before, Israel is no different than Iran, maybe worse, because they are so stuck in their mindset that they are always in the right.

That we aren't calling for the destruction of Iran, burning their flags, shouting for its death, supporting organizations meant to kill all Iranians?

I read too many articles (and even linked one),

Where?

And given Israel's history in the region, and your recent comments about fairness, I'm inclined to believe the reports over your denial.

I'm inclined to believe my eyes.

Guess what, so does Israel against Iran.

Proof.

And I already pointed out that other countries fund those organization to, including Saudi Arabia.

Do you claim Israel funds Daesh/ other sunni jihadists?

and it can't be from Israel Intel, but from another 3rd party country that support your argument.

There you go.

No, it's not that they are blind, because they know how unreliable Israel is when it comes to intel,

The US government does not share your opinion.

or how they seem to make things worse in the region,

Worse meaning Israel lives?

it just that they don't agree with Israel trying to make things worse in the region

Would you see the region better under an Iranian hegemony? The US officials would see it worse.

and keep them from doing something stupid to create further tension in the region which might lead to a war.

War already occurs. The difference is that Iran is about to be hit directly, instead of by-proxy.

Those other countries only receive a fraction, compared to Israel.

I just linked the link. They receive(d) far more.

And we give money to them to try and keep their markets, and resources, open to us. It's the only reason why we are in the Middle East.

I thought the only reason is shady Israeli lobbyists.

Yes, because of our close relationship to Israel.

The Real Roots of Arab Anti-Americanism:
"For years now, anti-Americanism has served as a means of last resort by which failed political systems and movements in the Middle East try to improve their standing. The United States is blamed for much that is bad in the Arab world, and it is used as an excuse for political and social oppression and economic stagnation. By assigning responsibility for their own shortcomings to Washington, Arab leaders distract their subjects' attention from the internal weaknesses that are their real problems. And thus rather than pushing for greater privatization, equality for women, democracy, civil society, freedom of speech, due process of law, or other similar developments sorely needed in the Arab world, the public focuses instead on hating the United States.

What makes this strategy remarkable, however, is the reality of past U.S. policy toward the region. Obviously, the United States, like all countries, has tried to pursue a foreign policy that accords with its own interests. But the fact remains that these interests have generally coincided with those of Arab leaders and peoples. For example, the United States may have had its own reasons for saving Kuwait from annexation by Iraq's secular dictatorship in 1991 -- mainly to preserve cheap oil. But U.S. policy was still, in effect, pro-Kuwaiti, pro-Muslim, and pro-Arab. After all, Washington could have used the war as a pretext to seize Kuwait's oil fields for itself or demand lower prices or political concessions in exchange for fighting off Iraq. Instead, U.S. leaders did none of these things and sought the widest possible support for their actions among Arabs and Muslims."

What shared interest.

The interest of eliminating terrorist organizations who target (also) american citizens.

At the time, we had an administration, and president, with close ties to Israel, and Sadi Arabia, along with close ties to companies that wanted war, because of financial interests it represented.

Which war are you talking about? The one in which we and Saudia suffered scuds?

It led to one of the worst wars in US history, and the probable reason why this country won't send any significant US forces to aid Israel if war breaks out in the region.

Or so you think.

Really. Or was it because they supported a dictator, who abused his own people, to appease Israel and the West with lucrative oil trade, which led to a revolution that installed the current theocracy.

I do not see Egypt doing the same, despite the west supporting Mubarak.

Our ally is the reason why this country was attacked,

AN ENEMY OF CONVENIENCE:
"Why has the real record been so disregarded in the Middle East? There are several explanations. First, whatever the extent of Americans' failure to understand the region, Middle Easterners' inability to understand the United States has been greater. Throughout the region, leaders and movements have always expected Washington to try to conquer them and wipe out its enemies -- since, after all, this is what the locals would do if they controlled the world's most powerful country."

"Second, it is important to remember how tightly information is controlled in the Middle East. It is hardly surprising that the masses, shut off from accurate data and constantly fed antagonistic views, have grown hostile to the United States. Those who could present a more accurate picture of America are discouraged from doing so by peer pressure, censorship, and fear of being labeled U.S. agents.

Third, Washington's real record is constantly distorted. The United States, for example, is blamed for the suffering of Muslims whom it protected in Kosovo and Bosnia. U.S. humanitarian efforts in Somalia are portrayed as part of an imperialistic, anti-Muslim campaign defeated by heroic local resistance.

Fourth, the real nature of the threats from which the United States protected Arabs is downplayed. Take, for example, Saddam Hussein, who has started two wars, killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Arabs, looted and vandalized Kuwait, threatened his neighbors, tortured and repressed his own people, used chemical weapons against opponents and civilians, fired missiles against population centers, and tried to develop nuclear arms so as to dominate the region. Despite his record, Arabs throughout the Middle East are constantly told by their leaders that the United States is the party responsible for Iraq's problems, and that Washington is the one seeking to dominate the Persian Gulf.

Finally, there is the attempt to reduce all American policy to a single issue: U.S. support for Israel. Israel's true nature and policies are also distorted as part of this picture. This latter element is critical to the salience of the first in anti-American rhetoric, for if one believes that Israel is an evil force seeking to dominate the Middle East, kill Arabs, and destroy Islam, it would follow that one would view American aid to Israel as a supreme evil. The truth, however, is that the United States has merely helped Israel survive efforts from Arab neighbors to remove it from the map. The U.S.-Israel relationship was in fact quite ambivalent for most of Israel's first quarter-century of existence, with the United States generally refusing to supply arms or other aid. The link only intensified in the face of hostile actions by Arab states, which aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and sponsored anti-American terrorism. And despite such hostility, the U.S. goal has always remained a mutually acceptable peace agreement between the Arabs and Israel that would ensure good American relations with both sides.

Radical forces in the Arab world have always rejected a peaceful solution, however, because they do not want Israel to survive or the region to become more stable. Such a result, after all, would undermine the radicals' chances of seizing power.

As this point suggests, Middle Eastern radicals have opposed the United States not because it has not worked hard enough to bring about a just solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, but for the opposite reason: because the radicals want to ensure that Washington fails to do so. This is why terrorism has always increased whenever it seemed that the diplomatic pursuit of peace might succeed. Hence Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, urged by the United States, was greeted in the region not as a step toward ending occupation or achieving peace, but as a sign of weakness and a signal that Israel's enemies should escalate violence against it. The September 11 attacks, meanwhile, were planned at a time when the peace process seemed closest to success. It is no accident that Middle Eastern anti-Americanism peaked at the very moment when the United States was proposing to support the creation of an independent Palestinian state with its capital in east Jerusalem."

At 5/11/18 02:23 AM, satanbrain wrote: One of the reasons you were attacked is that your existence is reviled, the Great Satan.

Correction: Meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, not existence.

To save time.
Specifically.

At 5/8/18 05:19 PM, Sause wrote: Now Iran can ignore the deal they were already ignoring

yep.

At 5/12/18 04:32 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 5/11/18 01:43 PM, EdyKel wrote:

Did he? Or they? Lack of proof still.

I say 20 to 30 years of crying wolf is proof enough, that even western leaders agree.

claiming they owned it about 2000 years ago,

Proving we owned it.

No. Your argument is like saying that you have the right to take over your cousin's house, and lands, because your ancestors once lived there, and you kicked your cousins (who did no wrong to you) out because you blamed their ancestors for what you think they did to your ancestors. That's just petty grudges, and selfishness. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Theocracy? "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." I doubt this happens.

Yes, a theocracy. I keep telling you I don't see much difference between Israel and Iran, in their rhetoric against each other, and how they use each other to gain, and retain, power in the hands of a religious ideology. As I said before, only Jews can hold office there, in a democracy that is based on Jewish principles, which is increasingly controlled by Jewish dogma of who is a jew and who is not. Plenty of articles question the theocratic direction Israel is heading, along with their purity laws and citizenship requirements.

The recent airstrikes, being one of them.

Self defense.

No. That's a convenient arguments for Israel to attack them, which heavily relies on "what ifs", and no proof.

1116 killed. 709 of those terrorists. Using buildings as terrorists' havens or ammunition/rockets warehouses tend to get them destroyed.

That is no excuse.

were killed by a terrorist attack I can easily point to dozens to hundreds of Palestinians, or Muslims, civilians killed in by Israeli forces.

During attacks purposed to stop the very terrorists.

Son, Israel always considered these things a terrorist attack, even if they are unarmed protestors, and critics. Stop making up excuses. This is why more and more people have lost faith in Israel in the world, because they keep doing horrendous things, while excusing it as self defense.

where only Jews could be elected to office,

Proof.

For someone who supposedly lives there, you don't know much about your own government. I've been looking for anything to suggest that Muslims are elected to office there, but have not found much. Or how many work in the government. I just have the population %.

A more recent one.

I don't know how sheltered you are, or just living in denial, but a country has a right to defend its borders from those who would infiltrate it. Ignoring warnings when nearing the enemy's fence has consequences.

Son, our president insults our neighbors, and goes after those who he doesn't consider citizens, like the Nazis went after the Jews, using any small incident to justify it. This is a pretty common tactic used by far right groups, who love to create fear, and paranoia, against other groups, while using small incidents, or large ones, to promote certain policies that either keep them in power, or is financially lucrative to people who support them, which leads to perpetual cycle of tension, self feeding itself - which Iran and Israel are currently in. It will never end until one destroys the other. No attempt to change it by hardliners in power.

That we aren't calling for the destruction of Iran, burning their flags, shouting for its death, supporting organizations meant to kill all Iranians?

And you are a prime example of the same shit, but you are trying to convince others it's about self defense. Pot calling kettle black. I keep hearing Netanyahu threatens Iran, and then they threaten back. It's all circular. Both countries are the same, and claim to feel threatened by the other.

And I already pointed out that other countries fund those organization to, including Saudi Arabia.

Do you claim Israel funds Daesh/ other sunni jihadists?

Israel funds their own terrorism.

and it can't be from Israel Intel, but from another 3rd party country that support your argument.

There you go.

Not what I asked for, son.

"The memo, published by WikiLeaks, says Saudi donors “constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide".

Including the one that attacked the US on 9-11.

Would you see the region better under an Iranian hegemony? The US officials would see it worse.

Neither. I rather Israel and Iran find common ground, instead of creating a perpetual cycle that keeps both country's leaders in power.

And we give money to them to try and keep their markets, and resources, open to us. It's the only reason why we are in the Middle East.

I thought the only reason is shady Israeli lobbyists.

If that's how you want to describe them. I just see it as funneling US taxpayer money back into our defense industry.

Yes, because of our close relationship to Israel.

The Real Roots of Arab Anti-Americanism:

And Israel. You keep leaving that part out.

"In a rambling text, bin Laden opined on Islamic history, celebrated recent attacks against U.S. forces in Lebanon and Somalia, and recounted a multitude of grievances against the United States, Israel, and their allies. “The people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Jewish-Christian alliance and their collaborators,” he wrote."

This just proves that we created more problems in the Middle East for our selves, which is easily seen as American interference, and imperialism over there, while being associated with Israel - another point of contention in the region - by many Middle Eastern people. You might call some of them terrorists, but they see themselves as freedom fighters, trying to regain control of their own destiny and lands. Maybe you would like it if Saudi Arabia brought in their force into Israel, and started destroying your infrastructure, killing your people, and accusing those who rise up against them as terrorist, and insurgents,while controlling your government with a puppet leader. It's all a point of view. Which is all the more reason the US should stop meddling over there.

What shared interest.

The interest of eliminating terrorist organizations who target (also) american citizens.

Again, because we meddle in the affairs of Middle East for our own ends, and our ties to Israel.

At the time, we had an administration, and president, with close ties to Israel, and Sadi Arabia, along with close ties to companies that wanted war, because of financial interests it represented.

Which war are you talking about? The one in which we and Saudia suffered scuds?

Don't be a smartass, son. You know the war I'm talking about. And those scuds were probably given to them by the US in the 91 war.

It led to one of the worst wars in US history, and the probable reason why this country won't send any significant US forces to aid Israel if war breaks out in the region.

Or so you think.

Then you don't know Trump, and the base that backs him. They don't want another war after the recent ones. They want out of the middle east, and Trump is good at throwing people, countries, under the bus to apease the greater crowd.

Really. Or was it because they supported a dictator, who abused his own people, to appease Israel and the West with lucrative oil trade, which led to a revolution that installed the current theocracy.

Stay on topic, this is about Iran.

At 5/12/18 11:28 PM, EdyKel wrote:

At 5/12/18 04:32 AM, satanbrain wrote:

I say 20 to 30 years of crying wolf is proof enough, that even western leaders agree.

He was not the prime minister yet. You cannot say the prime minister said it, when he was the opposition leader. I suppose Trump is not a western leader, because he said different things about Netanyahu.

No. Your argument is like saying that you have the right to take over your cousin's house, and lands, because your ancestors once lived there, and you kicked your cousins

Lack of proof we 'kicked them'.

(who did no wrong to you)

This and this and the war in which we were supposed to be thrown to the sea, according to the arab league. "...when I asked him for his estimate of the size of the Jewish forces, [he] waved his hands and said: 'It does not matter how many there are. We will sweep them into the sea.'"

out because you blamed their ancestors for what you think they did to your ancestors.

Their ancestors did it to other rulers of the land, not to us.

That's just petty grudges, and selfishness. Two wrongs don't make a right.

We never said they exiled us.

Yes, a theocracy. I keep telling you I don't see much difference between Israel and Iran,

Because you're fed by propaganda. I live here.

in their rhetoric against each other,

Lack of proof of threatening to wipe Iran off the map.

and how they use each other to gain, and retain, power in the hands of a religious ideology.

Do you know what a democracy is?

As I said before, only Jews can hold office there,

Lack of proof.

in a democracy that is based on Jewish principles, which is increasingly controlled by Jewish dogma of who is a jew and who is not.

It is called a nation state.

along with their purity laws and citizenship requirements.

This is a state for the jewish people.

No. That's a convenient arguments for Israel to attack them, which heavily relies on "what ifs", and no proof.

Dead citizens is just a an excuse. Okay.

That is no excuse.

So your solution is to keep suffering rockets. Great.

Son, Israel always considered these things a terrorist attack,

And I believe Israel, while you believe Hamas.

even if they are unarmed protestors,

Trying to infiltrate and cross the fence.

and critics. Stop making up excuses.

Show me unharmed 'unarmed critic' mob trying to cross the defended fence of an enemy country and not being shot/stopped

This is why more and more people have lost faith in Israel in the world, because they keep doing horrendous things, while excusing it as self defense.

Like not letting dozens of terrorists in, what horrendous things.

For someone who supposedly lives there, you don't know much about your own government.

I do, in fact.

I've been looking for anything to suggest that Muslims are elected to office there, but have not found much. Or how many work in the government. I just have the population %.

Lack of proof still. Find me a law or regulation that bars non-jews from being elected to office.

Son, our president insults our neighbors, and goes after those who he doesn't consider citizens, like the Nazis went after the Jews, using any small incident to justify it.

Trump is a literal nazi? You're even more sheltered that I;' thought.

And you are a prime example of the same shit,

Lack of proof where I called for their destruction, etc etc.

but you are trying to convince others it's about self defense.

It simply is. They have been fighting us by-proxy for years.

Israel funds their own terrorism.

The proved thing is Lavon Affair and the attempted use of the kurds. The rest is iranian claims.

Neither. I rather Israel and Iran find common ground,

There was common ground. Until the ayatollahs started inciting against us

This just proves that we created more problems in the Middle East for our selves, which is easily seen as American interference, and imperialism over there,

Iran taking over more and more regions (Iraq, Syria and Lebanon) is seen as Imperialist by us and the arabs.

while being associated with Israel - another point of contention in the region - by many Middle Eastern people.

Not by us.

You might call some of them terrorists, but they see themselves as freedom fighters,

Freedom fighters whose declared goal is the annihilation of my people.

trying to regain control of their own destiny and lands.

And throw us to the sea.

Maybe you would like it if Saudi Arabia brought in their force into Israel, and started destroying your infrastructure,

Proof infrastructure was destroyed prior to palestinian terrorism.

killing your people,

Proof everyone killed is a citizen.

and accusing those who rise up against them as terrorist, and insurgents,while controlling your government with a puppet leader.

You mean, those who stab, bomb and shoot citizens?

It's all a point of view. Which is all the more reason the US should stop meddling over there.

Until they meddle over where you are.

Again, because we meddle in the affairs of Middle East for our own ends, and our ties to Israel.

Because they blame you for everything, I posted from the article about it.

Don't be a smartass, son. You know the war I'm talking about.

I do not.

And those scuds were probably given to them by the US in the 91 war.

Proof.

Then you don't know Trump,

Lack of proof Trump is 'white supremacist', whatever that is anymore.

and the base that backs him. They don't want another war after the recent ones. They want out of the middle east, and Trump is good at throwing people, countries, under the bus to apease the greater crowd.

The same supporters are already disillusioned and mourn over his interference.

Stay on topic, this is about Iran.

I can say the same.

At 5/13/18 02:29 AM, satanbrain wrote:

Son, in the end of the day we can keep arguing, and you can attack each sentence I make, but you haven't convinced me of anything, and I doubt I'll convinced you of anything. I will not support any war in aid of Israel, and continue the failed policies of the US in the Middle East, which have done nothing but bite us in the ass. And I'm not alone in this sentiment, much of the US population feels the same as I do, and Trump, who stumped on this platform, is known for doing what his die hard base wants, will not send troop to aid in your war.

At 5/14/18 12:09 AM, EdyKel wrote: and Trump, who stumped on this platform, is known for doing what his die hard base wants, will not send troop to aid in your war.

Aren't there evangelists in his die hard base? Aren't they supportive of war?

drumpf

At 5/14/18 02:25 AM, satanbrain wrote:

At 5/14/18 12:09 AM, EdyKel wrote: and Trump, who stumped on this platform, is known for doing what his die hard base wants, will not send troop to aid in your war.

Aren't there evangelists in his die hard base? Aren't they supportive of war?

Many of his base are supportive. The right-wing populists and alt-right base that won him the election, though, actually often hate Jewish people and, by extension, Israel. While I'm sure Mr. 45 will swing to bat for Israel due to him being on the side of Neocons now, his base actually doesn't like Israel very much for rather... terrible reasons. Supporting Israel in a war is a pretty surefire way of him losing a 2020 re-election, really.

Trump plays chicken with Iran over oil, and if it's anything like China, he's not going to win. I'm already expecting higher gas prices.