I'm struggling with the method !

[PounchPounch]

Hello animators ! (Ye it's me again with my third topic i'm sorry :D)

I'll explain this as simply as possible for making it short

So as I said in the title I'm having a really hard time with the method, so basically i'm trying to learn animation of the traditionnal kind with all the tutorials on youtube

So this week end I tried to animate on a audio dialogue from a movie, so my goal was to animate a simple female human character that we see from head to feet, and she is saying just "i'm sorry" so I tried to do a little acting on that with her face and body language, BUT it ended just not smooth at all ! There were no arcs and it was just choppy

Here how I proceeded:

1. I did my 2 keyposes by just drawing silhouettes because I don't want to worry about anatomy and look while i'm doing that, the first keypose was my character before she said "i'm sorry' and, my character after she said it (seconde keypose)

2.I did her body language position during the sentence "i'm sorry" (so how do we call that ? Extreme pose ? Keyposes ? I'm struggling guys :D), so I decomposed "i'm" and "sorry" and did a little acting

3. then I did my constructions on thoses poses for make my character solid in a 3D space, and I also did the face language for saying "i'm sorry" during that

4. then I've tried to breakdown the poses, so again I did silhouettes that are linking the poses each other and did the anatomy construction of thoses silhouettes (simple cartoon anatomy not complexe) at this step I was starting to feel like it was just not right but I was saying myself "meh maybe it's just because it's not finished yet, it will look better with the inbetweening"

5. Then I've tried to do the inbetweening but didn't finish it because it looked just not right:

My character was changing proportion all the time making it very choppy !
I did a topic about proportion and someone helped me a lot and I followed his advice very precisely but... *curse word*

Is my method not right ? what do I do !

[hvanderwegen]

Can you post the sequence? It's very hard to critique without looking at the actual animation.

[PounchPounch]

At 1/28/18 05:11 PM, hvanderwegen wrote: Can you post the sequence? It's very hard to critique without looking at the actual animation.

Shit I've deleted it because I was frustated lol
I still have my back up file but I didn't " upgrade it" when I was to the step where I was doing my inbetweening so it's veeery unfinished
What I can share would be the fla file of that backup file, I use Animate CC (The audio says "j'suis désolée" but it's "i'm sorry" in french):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/900paiqn2e047af/Sans%20nom-1.fla?dl=0

I don't think it would be helpful for criticizing because it's unfinished so it's obviously look choppy, but what you need to know is that when I've inbetween it it still looked choppy cause as I said my character kept changing proportion

[ValterValyun]

Didn't see the file (lost access to a computer so i cant see swfs on a mobile device) but just by reading it, are you trying to get your character moving and saying something at the same time?

[PounchPounch]

At 1/28/18 06:39 PM, ValterValyun wrote: Didn't see the file (lost access to a computer so i cant see swfs on a mobile device) but just by reading it, are you trying to get your character moving and saying something at the same time?

Yes, just simple, my character move her lips and do body language you know (she doesn't walk or something)

Basically I've recorded an audio from a movie, just a piece of dialogue between two detective policeman, a man and a woman, and I want to animate on that audio

at the beginning the woman say "je suis désolé" (which is "i'm sorry" in french) so I've worked on that simple sentence

[ValterValyun]

At 1/28/18 06:52 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

At 1/28/18 06:39 PM, ValterValyun wrote: Didn't see the file (lost access to a computer so i cant see swfs on a mobile device) but just by reading it, are you trying to get your character moving and saying something at the same time?

Yes, just simple, my character move her lips and do body language you know (she doesn't walk or something)

Hm, wish I can see it if it is an mp4 file . .

But if you really had her moving right when she starts talking at the same time, you might have to adjust your timing. Can't really explain it, but when lip syncing and doing body language at the same time, it's all about timing.

Probably have her move before she begins talking just so you have more frames to work around and inbetween properly.

[hvanderwegen]

At 1/28/18 06:22 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

At 1/28/18 05:11 PM, hvanderwegen wrote: Can you post the sequence? It's very hard to critique without looking at the actual animation.

I don't think it would be helpful for criticizing because it's unfinished so it's obviously look choppy, but what you need to know is that when I've inbetween it it still looked choppy cause as I said my character kept changing proportion

This is actually extremely helpful. It is very simple: your basic construction keys are flawed, which means there is no hope whatsoever for a controlled result.

Check the attached image I made to compare your base drawings.
- the first drawing's torso is much larger than the subsequent ones. The torso size and proportions keep changing.
- the head shrinks in the third keyframe, only to scale up in the last frame. And suddenly it's an oval instead of a squashed circle.
- the overall body size and proportions keep shifting about throughout.

And that leads you into a dead-end, with no hope left.

No wonder you are getting very frustrated - if your base drawings are floating around like this, and your construction and proportions of shapes is unsteady...

Basically, you are attempting to fly before you can walk. There's no easier way to say this - practice your drawing skills, and solidify them. Get the construction right. Keep the shapes under control.

[riokusanchi]

At 1/28/18 04:49 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

Hello animators ! (Ye it's me again with my third topic i'm sorry :D)

HEY THERE, HERE IS AN OFFER IF YOU ARE A ANIMATOR LET ME DRAW YOUR CHARACTERS FOR YOU AND YOU JUST ANIMATE THEM. I KNOW ALL THE PROCEDURES FOR A ANIMATION AND SCENERY PROCESS. MY EMAIL IS
[e-mail]. LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[hvanderwegen]

At 1/29/18 10:49 AM, riokusanchi wrote:

At 1/28/18 04:49 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

Hello animators ! (Ye it's me again with my third topic i'm sorry :D)

Why are you spamming this thread? Create a new thread for this, please.

[riokusanchi]

At 1/29/18 01:00 PM, hvanderwegen wrote:

At 1/29/18 10:49 AM, riokusanchi wrote:

At 1/28/18 04:49 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

Hello animators ! (Ye it's me again with my third topic i'm sorry :D)

Why are you spamming this thread? Create a new thread for this, please.

I DONT KNOW HOW. IM NEW TO NEWGROUNDS

[PounchPounch]

At 1/28/18 09:42 PM, hvanderwegen wrote:

At 1/28/18 06:22 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

At 1/28/18 05:11 PM, hvanderwegen wrote: Can you post the sequence? It's very hard to critique without looking at the actual animation.

I don't think it would be helpful for criticizing because it's unfinished so it's obviously look choppy, but what you need to know is that when I've inbetween it it still looked choppy cause as I said my character kept changing proportion

This is actually extremely helpful. It is very simple: your basic construction keys are flawed, which means there is no hope whatsoever for a controlled result.

Check the attached image I made to compare your base drawings.
- the first drawing's torso is much larger than the subsequent ones. The torso size and proportions keep changing.
- the head shrinks in the third keyframe, only to scale up in the last frame. And suddenly it's an oval instead of a squashed circle.
- the overall body size and proportions keep shifting about throughout.

And that leads you into a dead-end, with no hope left.

No wonder you are getting very frustrated - if your base drawings are floating around like this, and your construction and proportions of shapes is unsteady...

Basically, you are attempting to fly before you can walk. There's no easier way to say this - practice your drawing skills, and solidify them. Get the construction right. Keep the shapes under control.

Thanks you very much for your clear answer it's really helping
So ye i'm not very much surprised at all, The thing is, for making my poses right (by right I mean I tried to stick with my proportions) I draw them side by side first, and then spread them into my timeline for timing them with the audio

I keep watching AMB's video on youtube that are really great but his videos only take small pieces of animation subject everytime, I need a timelapse video where I see someone do his constructions to see how he keep them with the right size

Do you have any tips for that ?

[hvanderwegen]

At 1/29/18 04:44 PM, PounchPounch wrote: Thanks you very much for your clear answer it's really helping
So ye i'm not very much surprised at all, The thing is, for making my poses right (by right I mean I tried to stick with my proportions) I draw them side by side first, and then spread them into my timeline for timing them with the audio

I keep watching AMB's video on youtube that are really great but his videos only take small pieces of animation subject everytime, I need a timelapse video where I see someone do his constructions to see how he keep them with the right size

Do you have any tips for that ?

I am beginning to understand what's going on here: you draw your keys SIDE BY SIDE - while you should be onion skinning them. Draw the first main (golden) pose, then draw the next one based on the first one by using onion skinning. Or copy the first pose, and adjust - either by drawing new parts and/or transforming. That's what the software is for - to make your life easier!

Side by side drawing! Wow! No wonder! Your basic animation workflow process is WRONG!

Traditional paper-based animators work like this (some preferred the peg bar at the bottom or at the top)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oktGlZQgYWs

Nowadays we work with onionskinning in animation software that doesn't require a light table - or rather, onion skinning is like a virtual light table.

Here is are two basic frame-by-frame Flash animation tutorials that show the basic process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76e6wvDSdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcBwDHx_oDk

In short: use onion skinning! That will allow you to maintain your proportions and shapes. Drawing your keys side by side is never going to work - classic animators use(d) light tables, and nowadays we use onion skinning in animation software.

Without onion skinning you're never going to get it right.

[PounchPounch]

I am beginning to understand what's going on here: you draw your keys SIDE BY SIDE - while you should be onion skinning them. Draw the first main (golden) pose, then draw the next one based on the first one by using onion skinning. Or copy the first pose, and adjust - either by drawing new parts and/or transforming. That's what the software is for - to make your life easier!

Side by side drawing! Wow! No wonder! Your basic animation workflow process is WRONG!

Traditional paper-based animators work like this (some preferred the peg bar at the bottom or at the top)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oktGlZQgYWs

Nowadays we work with onionskinning in animation software that doesn't require a light table - or rather, onion skinning is like a virtual light table.

Here is are two basic frame-by-frame Flash animation tutorials that show the basic process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76e6wvDSdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcBwDHx_oDk

In short: use onion skinning! That will allow you to maintain your proportions and shapes. Drawing your keys side by side is never going to work - classic animators use(d) light tables, and nowadays we use onion skinning in animation software.

Without onion skinning you're never going to get it right.

Haha I was using onion skin everytime when I saw a very good animator on youtube (AMB), drawing his poses side by side, but the thing is, sometimes he does it, sometimes he don't so it confuses me
Also, I have big issue with construction, as you can see I used the "bean technique for making the body, but the arms and legs I only use cylinders, and the face, I just do a circle, with a 3D triangle, but is there other things that I need to know ?

[PounchPounch]

At 1/30/18 02:07 PM, PounchPounch wrote:

I am beginning to understand what's going on here: you draw your keys SIDE BY SIDE - while you should be onion skinning them. Draw the first main (golden) pose, then draw the next one based on the first one by using onion skinning. Or copy the first pose, and adjust - either by drawing new parts and/or transforming. That's what the software is for - to make your life easier!

Side by side drawing! Wow! No wonder! Your basic animation workflow process is WRONG!

Traditional paper-based animators work like this (some preferred the peg bar at the bottom or at the top)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oktGlZQgYWs

Nowadays we work with onionskinning in animation software that doesn't require a light table - or rather, onion skinning is like a virtual light table.

Here is are two basic frame-by-frame Flash animation tutorials that show the basic process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76e6wvDSdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcBwDHx_oDk

In short: use onion skinning! That will allow you to maintain your proportions and shapes. Drawing your keys side by side is never going to work - classic animators use(d) light tables, and nowadays we use onion skinning in animation software.

Without onion skinning you're never going to get it right.

Haha I was using onion skin everytime when I saw a very good animator on youtube (AMB), drawing his poses side by side, but the thing is, sometimes he does it, sometimes he don't so it confuses me
Also, I have big issue with construction, as you can see I used the "bean technique for making the body, but the arms and legs I only use cylinders, and the face, I just do a circle, with a 3D triangle, but is there other things that I need to know ?

EDIT: I also have a very important question, back when I was animating stick fight animations, drawing stick figure were very easy and fun, because the gesture were instantly correct, I've saw that couple of artist says that drawing action lines really helps for gestures so,

When doing my poses, should I draw action lines for capturing more the gesture, or sould I draw construction, or should I do both on the same drawing ?

[hvanderwegen]

Action lines are your foundation on which you build your construction. But action lines are not just meaningless curves, they should match the action you intend to act out. And action lines also create a composition framework for your animation and images.

These guys explain it much better than I can. Read it, and understand it. And practice, practice, practice.

https://animationresources.org/drawing-drawing-100k-animation-drawing-course-05-line-of-action-silhouettes/
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.ca/2006/05/animation-school-lesson-5-line-of.html

Btw, one step builds the foundation to the next step, and the next step. If any of your preceeding steps are flawed, the end result will be flawed. That is why it is so important to develop solid cartoon drawing skills before attempting animation. At least, this is my opinion. Obviously we can have fun animating with less-then-good drafting skills, but for serious work you need great drawing skills, and VERY IMPORTANT know how to construct things properly.

I suggest you have a look at the entire cartoon/animation curriculum - the above two links are only a very small part of it. Some excellent information to be found there, and stuff that is often no longer taught at colleges.

[PounchPounch]

At 1/30/18 03:50 PM, hvanderwegen wrote: Action lines are your foundation on which you build your construction. But action lines are not just meaningless curves, they should match the action you intend to act out. And action lines also create a composition framework for your animation and images.

These guys explain it much better than I can. Read it, and understand it. And practice, practice, practice.

https://animationresources.org/drawing-drawing-100k-animation-drawing-course-05-line-of-action-silhouettes/
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.ca/2006/05/animation-school-lesson-5-line-of.html

Btw, one step builds the foundation to the next step, and the next step. If any of your preceeding steps are flawed, the end result will be flawed. That is why it is so important to develop solid cartoon drawing skills before attempting animation. At least, this is my opinion. Obviously we can have fun animating with less-then-good drafting skills, but for serious work you need great drawing skills, and VERY IMPORTANT know how to construct things properly.

I suggest you have a look at the entire cartoon/animation curriculum - the above two links are only a very small part of it. Some excellent information to be found there, and stuff that is often no longer taught at colleges.

I know the image from your first link it's from the book of Preston Blair that is not available anymore indeed, I've bought the book of Richard Williams, and the one by Ollie Johnson and Franck Thomas, and there is tons of good tutorials on youtube that helped me a lot, but yet I'm still frustated

But what you said is actually a thing that I kind of missed, I know that I have to do solid drawings, but I never felt the need to practice it because I thought that I was good at drawing 3D constructed character because of my knowledge of perspective, I guess that's not the case at all lol

Another thing, I keep searching on youtube on how to CONSTRUCT ! But the tutorials are not helping, right now what I do is that I just draw 3D shapes, but I don't know if there is shapes that are necessary or something

for example, when constucting the head, I don't know if I can make some indications on where to place the mouth, the nose, the ears, the eyebrows, all thoses details,