At 12/8/17 04:42 PM, EdyKel wrote:
I'll just post this here, since it was getting way off topic
All you have done is created a negative narrative about Muslims, while accusing others of shutting down a discussion which you have no interest in having, or changing your mind on, no matter the facts.
Interest I have plenty, but not to pretend Islam doesn't teach what it does, or that sharia, jihad, and antisemitism aren't real problems rooted in Islamic theology. That's fact. :)
you have people who hate other groups, for a wide range of reasons, while promoting their negative propaganda and hate towards them, while elevating their own groups as being better. What's not to understand?
All I see is you trying to get around these things by making excuses for why it not what it is: hate.
You still seem to be confusing Muslims with Islam. Muslims are religious; Islam is a religion. Two different things.
Like Christianity, Islam has been reformed, but instead of returning to the peace of Jesus and salvation by faith alone via Protestant Reformation, Islam returned to the violence of Muhammad through Wahhabism, salvation by deeds alone, especially jihad. 9:111, 22:58-59
yet, 99% of the Muslim population don't kill non-believers
Not all Muslims are violent jihadis, though Islam demands jihad, genocide, and subjugation of non-Muslims. Muslims can be wonderful, law-abiding citizens, but this is contrary to Islam, not because of it.
Sura 2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.
Many cite Sura 4:92-95 to "prove" Muslims aren't real Muslims if they kill Muslims, but Allah commands jihad against infidels AND Muslim hypocrites, Sura 9:73.
How does Islam define hypocrisy? Sura 9 spends a lot of time on it; understandable, since Sura 9 was, according to the classical narrative, revealed during Muhammad's many military campaigns in his last 8 years of life. Hypocrites show fear of death, 9:56-57; reluctance to jihad, 9:44-45, and friendliness toward unbelievers, 9:67.
This is a recipe for a bloodbath, which is what we have seen for 1400+ years.
Perhaps, I should post a few choice bible verses
Sure, go ahead, in a new thread please. :)
Just the immoral ones, or the ones who hide behind a bible, and refuse to see all the immorality done by many of their fellow Christians, present and past.
I see it. I condemn it. So does the Bible.
I grew up as a Methodist, and then became more of a deist later on, because of people like you who made me question it. I also have family that is devote Christians, and go to service every Sunday. I also have a cousin who married into a Jewish family, who's wife and daughter are practicing Jews. An I also have known a few people who were Muslims, and they were good people. So, I really don't hate any religion, just the people who display immoral behavior, or attack either with violence, or prejudice, against other groups - or refuse to see the suffering they cause - while telling others how moral and righteous they are.
Again, you seem to confuse Christians with Christianity, the theist with his branch of theism. The measure of a religion is less its modern practitioners and more what it, in its purest form, tells us to practice.
Islam is bad, not individual Muslims, who either do what it says, or don't. Muslims on both sides conduct their lives in the way they believe is right. I can't fault them for that; I can fault Islamic theology and law, which are not peaceful, good, or fit for any free society.
And then there are the problems over Israel, and he Middle East, which will suck this country, and others, into a religious dispute
I'm not gonna be PC here. Islam has open-ended commands like sura 9:5 and sura 9:29 -- which are wound up in Muhammad's last will and testament to Muslims, Quran Sura 9.
9, the most violent chapter by far, commands the deaths of unbelievers, the breaking of treaties, etc. When I see Islamic nations in the middle east, Al Qaeda, IS, the Taliban, Hamas, and the PLO following Islam, I don't conclude their people are the root of the evil; on the contrary, Islam is.
To hear you talk, I feel like you never understood the Bible and your faith was blind. No offense. That or you were surrounded by people who had little concept of their theology and were just keeping up appearances. We all know 'em; we're stuck with 'em, unfortunate though it may be.
I wasn't raised Christian, despite my family. I prayed some. Went to church some, never seriously. Never cared before I graduated college over a decade later. I hated it actually -- for judging me, a liar, thief, sociopath, trans person, agnostic, near atheist, gay. Hated lots of things ofc: myself, and God; drank heavily, smoked pot, slept around -- started fights for shiggles. Maybe still do verbally.
What changed my mind was Jesus, a historical person who suffered severe physical and psychological torture, believed he was dying for me -- his followers martyred for believing it too. It grew harder and harder to make excuses for my unbelief the more I researched Biblical criticism (atheistic, no less!) until finally, the Shroud of Turin and Sudarium of Oviedo made the difference, and after 22 years of life I prayed the most agnostic prayer ever and surrendered to Christ. Seriously tho, the research on the Shroud is awesome stuff.
But let's wrap this up.
As the topic is not the Bible but Sharia, I'll try not to waste much time, but I will drop a 50 min lecture, w/ timestamps for your convenience. Wanna discuss? Please make a new topic and @ me. :)
After watching, it should be clear the Biblical text has been being unfairly misrepresented for the sake of rhetoric.
0. - 00:48 - What you'd probably like me to believe.
1. 02:05 - Strange passages in O.T.; the problem of evil. Takeaway, unlike other gods, YHVH doesn't rebuke those who question him.
2. 04:10 - On N.T. mercy vs. O.T. wrath. Takeaway, justice and mercy clothe both texts; praying for your enemies and doing good to them is found in BOTH. I keep stressing this, but someone keeps missing it and maligning Christians. :P
3. 09:50 - Context of Mosaic law vs. the ancient world. Lots of our western values proceed out of the values established from O.T. ethics, carried through the N.T.
4. 16:15 - Dynamics of Israeli law and morality; not all of the commands in the Bible were open-ended, unlike those of Muhammad and Allah, and not all are universal. Unlike the nations of Canaan, Israelis were not to sacrifice babies to idols, rape, or enslave.
5. 23:06 - Israel's warfare was not genocidal. Ancient near eastern texts use similar language. All the Canaanite nations they fought survive, often to live among the Israelites, right after being "completely destroyed."
6. 40:50 - The misconceptions of "slavery" and racism in the O.T. Slavery only is used once therein, inserted by a later translator. Christopher Right, O.T. scholar: "The slave [in the Old Testament] was given human and legal rights unheard of in its contemporary societies."
Note, it was not the trans-Atlantic slavery we saw hundreds of years ago, where slaves had no rights, OR the Islamic slavery we have been seeing for 1400 years, where 95% of the African men enslaved by Islam died from their castration wounds, and thus we see virtually none of their progeny.
New research on Islamic slavery here.
If you want to be consistent, criticize Islam too, especially slavery, your pet issue. If you're honest, you will concede Islam deserves it.