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Voting System Overhaul Proposal

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:10:38


At 1/12/15 06:04 PM, Vert wrote: Also, Tom, would this mean that users' experience should be equally changed with the new system to be based on their reviews, and not previous voting experience? To put it simply, it's something you <may> be considering implementing, although I'm not sure what the benefits are (as you've said somewhere else, you want to encourage good reviews, not mindlessly, spamming reviews, i.e., quality over quantity), so I just want to be very clear that it'd be a horrible slap in the face for someone like me, so take care when messing with XP...

Existing XP would never get touched and would still be based on all the previous daily voting - we never want to do anything that makes a mess for people who have been voting every day for years now. That's why even the double XP weekend is a bit CRAZY given it is a rare change to the XP gathering routine.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:14:14


At 1/12/15 09:42 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 09:35 AM, DjGubkafish wrote: Also are you saying that we can edit our reviews and votes or just votes? I think we should not be able to do that cuz people gona troll
There are cases where developers fix issues with their games and reviewers would like the opportunity to update their review based on that.

This ^ is why I think a 15min window is too small. If a player spots a horrible bug in the game developer's game and scores it low and lets the developer know what is wrong in the review - it really gives the developer no time at all to fix the bug in that 15min window (assuming he isn't doing anything at that moment and is just staring at the monitor waiting for each review to roll in....). Maybe a 24 hour window? 72 hour window?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:16:04


At 1/12/15 06:07 PM, TomFulp wrote: I've been wondering if we should maybe show the OLD score for any pre-existing submission that has less than X of the new votes (which include existing review scores)... So until it reaches that threshold you still see the old score, and maybe a note encouraging users to vote.

That's not a bad idea, but X would be tricky to deal with, since there's bound to be submission with tens of thousands of votes, and submissions with merely hundreds... maybe make X dynamic, so that the higher the current number of votes, the smaller X is? And if implemented, I'd definitely consider putting it on a timer, so that after a period of time, say a year, it'd expire. Maybe also leave it accessible in a separate part of the site, with just the name and the score?

Getting XP to review IS getting tempting the more I think about it, since it would STILL be easier to just vote on stuff, so users theoretically wouldn't write junk reviews for XP when voting is quick and easy. Having it only give XP when you don't vote would also improve chances of not having junk reviews.

It's not a bad idea, I'd reckon, but I share your concern about the quality of the review, it's hard enough to get good quality reviews as is here (much less in other places), and tinkering with the system further does leave the risk of making things worst...


Fun: THAT IS THE BENEFIT OF DIPLOMATIC IMUNITY!

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:20:03


At 1/12/15 06:10 PM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 06:04 PM, Vert wrote: Also, Tom, would this mean that users' experience should be equally changed with the new system to be based on their reviews, and not previous voting experience? To put it simply, it's something you <may> be considering implementing, although I'm not sure what the benefits are (as you've said somewhere else, you want to encourage good reviews, not mindlessly, spamming reviews, i.e., quality over quantity), so I just want to be very clear that it'd be a horrible slap in the face for someone like me, so take care when messing with XP...
Existing XP would never get touched and would still be based on all the previous daily voting - we never want to do anything that makes a mess for people who have been voting every day for years now. That's why even the double XP weekend is a bit CRAZY given it is a rare change to the XP gathering routine.

Thanks, appreciate that you're not even considering it. But I'm not so sure if there wouldn't be some benefits to doing it, even if (being perfectly honest) I can't see any, so if someone can think of a good reason to do so, by all means raise the issue with the rest of us and we can discuss it. I can about my XP, to some extent, but I care about NG more.

And yes, making weekend XP different is a fairly big change and the reason why I'm not very inclined towards it...


Fun: THAT IS THE BENEFIT OF DIPLOMATIC IMUNITY!

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:36:25


I aint do no more voting I vote 4 obama and i done get screwed by obamacar dont fall for this foolish reptilan vote sytem

Voting System Overhaul Proposal


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:46:50


This sounds like a good and much-needed change.

Someone may have already said this, but if you decide to allow score changing but not review editing, you should put a note at the bottom of the review saying that the score was changed.


:)

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:58:46


Considering you pretty much invented this game, have you ever considered that to this day nobody has been able to come up with a non exploitable and truly fair/level playing field?

Just a thought, don't chew on it too long :3

Anyway this all sounds interesting, fire it up and we'll see what happens next.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 18:59:16


I'm glad the XP system will be added in audio portal since I usually listen to random music. Editing review is cool too! But one thing which bugs me so much is troll votes. Here is my request for this : Can you add a quick vote statistic? I mean something like play store's review section. With that, anyone can see the vote cast for each score and can easily know they're trolled or not by looking at the curve.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:06:48


I like this a lot. Great ideas


= + ^ e * i pi 1 0

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:15:18


Sounds sweet, though I hope you can reprise blam and save animations, for those few diligent or lucky enough to have settled a movie/game submission. Maybe with half stars, vote results will be a bit more precise?


Vault 101 I have many old and deleted Flash submissions, PM me the filename, maybe I got it.

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:29:08


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote:
The new voting system will be universal for all Portals (games, movies, audio, art).

Perfect

You will gain 2 XP for each vote, with a max of 10 XP daily.

Not sure, as I like the uniqueness of having a non-zero ending digit, as it signifies I've been here since the dawn of time, but seems fine otherwise

On weekends you will be able to log up to 20 XP daily.

Sure, whatever

All existing score data will be backed up but no longer used. Review scores will become the new existing score data.

Users can only vote once on each piece of content and can edit that vote whenever they want.

The score that shows in your review is the same score as your vote, there is just one location on the page to enter you score.

You can hide your score or submit a review without a score (many people are anti-scoring).

So it's basically merging the reviewing and voting systems. This seems fine in theory, the number of people that have asked in wi/ht over the years "but why am i not getting experience wtf" when reviewing is testament to that. That said...

Let me know your thoughts on this plan!

While the idea is great in principle, it's somewhat missing the entire point of voting. The point of voting is to GET RID OF THE SHIT. The good stuff has always risen to the top. What's more important is the ability to get rid of the tests. The works in progress. The 5 second movies. The terrible stick figure movies. The crap that's imported from Youtube or wherever so badly that it looks like a blurred mess. The awful Madness ripoffs. The shovelware (thanks to whoever removed all of enagames' rubbish by the way). Version 28457389476 of Pong. People are talking about zero bombers - there's a reason why 99% of my votes are zero - because I can always find 5 submissions that are under judgment that should be blammed, and which never are because voter tendencies have declined so bad that voting is basically meaningless.

Do everything that you're suggesting, but at the same time:

- reintroduce the whistle. If I can just flag all of the stuff that shouldn't be submitted to the Portal in the first place, I can move on to actual good submissions.
- raise the score which submissions need to avoid being blammed. It shouldn't be the case that 90%+ of stuff is protected. Give the junk a chance to go away, the majority of users clearly don't know how things worked correctly 10 years ago, so the admins need to do something about this.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:29:21


Another thing that would give reviewers more incentive to write reviews is to also vote on the review and give XP for that as well. That way it also curates the types of reviews coming in and would put some better reviews at the top.


At 1/12/15 07:29 PM, jonthomson wrote:
Do everything that you're suggesting, but at the same time:

- reintroduce the whistle. If I can just flag all of the stuff that shouldn't be submitted to the Portal in the first place, I can move on to actual good submissions.

- raise the score which submissions need to avoid being blammed. It shouldn't be the case that 90%+ of stuff is protected. Give the junk a chance to go away, the majority of users clearly don't know how things worked correctly 10 years ago, so the admins need to do something about this.

This ---^ good points. The whistle is long overdue for a return simply because too many people steal stuff and it's easier to report. As a fellow newgrounds veteran, you're actually not wrong, kids these days have no idea how NG used to work. Though it probably was a good move to clean the hentai ads and adult stuff off the front page....lmao. This year, Newgrounds will be even more efficient from the way things are looking.

I kind've wish animators would hit the reset button to say 7 or 8 years ago back when I saw the most interesting stuff. There's still interesting stuff, but the stuff back then was totally different. Animators now focus too much on lackluster parodies or random stupid faces, or obnoxious loud humor, which is annoying and isn't funny anymore. It was only funny when Egoraptor did it, then people made it an unfortunate trend of ick. Too many Game Grumps cartoons, that needs to stop.

More people just try to get attention nowadays but theres some good original ideas, but now most of the time, it's too much like a competition. I miss the days when most of them did what they wanted to and we ended up having better stuff. It makes me wonder what made people change and resort to this.

PS: @TomFulp , what if we had a "like" button like a heart button with text by it to say "like this post" or something for certain posts in threads like these? It would be helpful for feedback to know what people like and don't like. That could help build Newgrounds too. Basically, say you have a post and like some forum threads, you could give it a thumbs up and it could say "+11 thumbs" to see how many people liked someone's post/reply. Some forums have this and it's quite useful.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:46:30


NOPE.
The system is perfect and I haven't seen anything similar anywhere, I just think you should get XP from audio and art too.
The 5 votes minimum is fantastic and the daily reward too, please don't change it, it's perfect as it is.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:50:09


The box that says "__ XP to next level" is way too basic-looking. It needs a little bit more pizazz. Also, in the review box, if we press "enter/return", will it add another line of text like the normal post box does? I don't want the redesign to encourage really basic comments as opposed to actual criticism.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:51:31


At 1/12/15 07:46 PM, taiottavios wrote: NOPE.
The system is perfect and I haven't seen anything similar anywhere, I just think you should get XP from audio and art too.
The 5 votes minimum is fantastic and the daily reward too, please don't change it, it's perfect as it is.

There are many problems with the current voting system, it's been abused way too much both ways. It's not perfect at all. It used to be better back in the old days until everyone became more competitive in 07 or 08. The system is pretty old itself, hasn't changed much since.

I agree about getting XP for voting for audio and art, I never quite understood why you didn't get XP for that. It's always been that way as long as I've been here (2003 on my first account), didn't make sense to me. Daily rewards most likely won't change, that's always been a thing too.

Reviews help people more than votes, and people keep hitting "0" or "5" whether it be someone trying to vote people down to get to the top, or 5 someone because they're a friend that doesn't lean on a real opinion or review. With review scores, the system won't be taken advantage of, and we can see if anyone decides to be a prick and they'll get banned if they take advantage of the system.


New Piercing Lazer album "The Other Side Chronicles" coming June 8th to Itunes, BandCamp, and other digital stores!

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:57:40


wait wait, I don't get it. We can still vote(stars,0-5,whatever) without writing a review right?
I get it that we can write reviews without scores but what abaout the opposite?srry if this is dumb

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 19:58:08


Perhaps the scores from submissions could be averaged out and displayed on the user profile page to encourage people to check out their content?


Experienced Musician with 5yrs under his belt.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 20:07:21


At 1/12/15 09:52 AM, TomFulp wrote: Site activity is generally heavier on weekends and people have more time to check stuff out, which is why the double XP concept seems like it could be fun and boost activity even more.

I know this has been an idea you've had for a long time Tom and when it's come up before I recall you being conflicted about it potentially cheapening the efforts of the long term users who have put in the hard yards (well, as much as you can call clicking a voting panel 5 times 'hard yards') over years and years of loyalty to NG. Combined with some of the other statements you've made here it seems fan service is becoming less and less a priority over userbase growth. I absolutely understand that that needs to be a critical focus for any successful website and business but it is disappointing to watch the things that made your experience so enjoyable slowly diminish.

That's really more of an aside, so to address the point at hand - yeah, a double XP weekend is fun. If I was new to NG I would be absolutely stoked to hear such a thing could be coming very soon. I just wish I had more to strive for and earn with those extra points. :P

At 1/12/15 11:43 AM, TomFulp wrote: NG did feel more like a game in the early days, then in recent years we downplayed the game/stats aspect. I let pushback into my head about that stuff being "childish" and we reduced it in 2012 to the detriment of the user experience for a lot of people.

yo das it mane, das me right hurr. I loved those b/p movies so much and had a sweet idea for a level up movie that made me want to get good enough at Flash to give it the treatment it deserved (and the quality it needed). Never turned out though.

I feel like this has been a bit too depressing, I don't wanna be a Negative Nancy here. Overhauling the scoring system to have scores more accurately reflect the quality of the entry is an excellent thing and I'm all for it. GG Tom.

[thumbs up emoticon]


I'll probably read this in ten minutes and facepalm. - RageVI

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 20:11:54


What?! No more voting 5 on the same submission daily??? Tom, you fool... you do not understand how long it has taken me to raise the score of "Kiss Twilight Boys" perhaps at least ONE WHOLE STAR over COUNTLESS DAYS!!!

You despicable, vile, monstrous, you... this is no ordinary "vote 5 because I can" scenario. It is the legendary addition of one star to the score of a crappy game, tirelessly forged by a single user over 400+ days... ME! Had it not been for my commitment and persistence, this poor game would've still dangled beneath 1.5 stars! And now you're just going to bring my laborious masterpiece to a halt?! NOBODY INTERVENES WITH MY ULTIMATE QUEST TO BRING THE SCORE OF A DUMB GAME TO 4.99!!! HYAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!

Voting System Overhaul Proposal


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 20:17:05


Sounds great! I love that it's going to include art and music. That will give people some more motivation to vote on those submissions.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 20:22:02


Great news guys!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 20:33:20


Is there going to be any weight or sort for number of votes? Now, (for audio at least) it's just by high score. Someone with one vote of 5 will be higher up than someone with many more votes that average in the 4.x range.


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: Users can only vote once on each piece of content and can edit that vote whenever they want.

I like this one. For years people have posted things like, "Game is broken! 0 stars! I'll change vote when it works." lol...

At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: Once you write a review, it always appears above the other reviews on the page, so you can see what you wrote and edit (or delete?) if desired.

This is good too. It used to be like this, didn't it?

You can hide your score or submit a review without a score (many people are anti-scoring).

I like this too. Sometimes I want to leave a comment but adding a score doesn't seem appropriate, lol...


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 21:18:34


I like these changes, especially since a minimum vote number isn't required. On most days I may watch 3 movies and not have enough to deposit points.

I think the 10 xp daily maximum should be 10 xp for every 24 hours rather than for every calendar day (unless it works like that already). An alternative would be to allow users to bank points if they vote more than 5 times in a day. That way, the maximum is still 10 xp daily, but the user can watch as many videos as possible.

It should be more clear that a written review is not required with a rating.

I also suggest making the written review consistent with ratings and using a 5 point system rather than the 10 point system that currently exists for written reviews.

Being able to edit reviews for at least 5 minutes after submitting would be nice and only reviewing once is also a plus.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 21:46:58


No! Now I won't be able to rig the system by voting my stuff up every day! (PS, I don't do that.)

In all seriousness, there's one major problem with all this that you might've missed. If you can only vote for each submission once, and your experience for the day is still capped, then if you "do overtime" by voting for no experience then you'll never be able to get experience for the extra stuff you voted for. One solution that I can see is to change everyone's routine by just doing away with the cap altogether, and have it be like the way Armor Games used to be. You can vote as many times a day as you like since there are only so many submissions to possibly vote on.

And I have an idea regarding the concerns about how all the submissions' scores are going to change. The current game ratings can be merged with the review ratings by having an NG bot place a special review on each submission equal to the game's rating, perhaps worth a lot of votes. Maybe this special NG bot can even have each of its reviews be worth a different amount of votes depending on how many votes the game got previously.


I got Flash CS4 in case you need something converted to CS3.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 21:50:14


Yeah but if there's no voting, how will we blam stuff? The spammers will run this site and everybody's reviews aren't always fair or equal. I agree with the other portal grounds gold, but the new rating system kind of gets rid of how unique this site is.

Newgrounds is special because it's like a game, there's leveling up there's dumping the trash, and there's saving movies,
without the power to do that Newgrounds will be just like you tube. And then people will really start to leave Newgrounds.


At 1/12/15 09:46 PM, TharosTheDragon wrote: doing away with the cap altogether

That would make my 2426 days (6 years 236 days) of depositing obsolete.

Another flash game site might not have a cap, but I don't see how that means that Newgrounds shouldn't, either. Newgrounds has a great system. It's a system so great, it has made me visit the site each day for 2426 days. Stop and think about that. 2426 days of Newgrounds, 6 years 236 days of Newgrounding, over the last ~7 years. Brand loyalty like that is rivaled only by cocaine and potato chips.

And you seem to be under the impression that experience would somehow be lost when you vote on more than 5 submissions in a day. That is not the case. There are far more than 5 submissions per day. I don't know the stats for each individual portal, but I'd imagine there are close to 150-200 submissions across the site per day. Even if you voted on every single one of them, 150-200 more would take their place the next day.

It's a system where there is absolutely no shortage of New submissions. Even if you voted on all ~700,000 some odd submissions because you were bored, you'd have another 150-200 submissions to vote on for your experience the next day.

Edit: And I don't want some random Korean guy to visit the site one day and decide to spend the next few days voting on every single submission until he's level 61 and dethrones @pimp (Why do I @ you? I know you have a script that tells you when people post about you.) who has been here since 1999, before most Armor Games users were born.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 22:09:10


At 1/12/15 07:29 PM, jonthomson wrote: - reintroduce the whistle. If I can just flag all of the stuff that shouldn't be submitted to the Portal in the first place, I can move on to actual good submissions.
- raise the score which submissions need to avoid being blammed. It shouldn't be the case that 90%+ of stuff is protected. Give the junk a chance to go away, the majority of users clearly don't know how things worked correctly 10 years ago, so the admins need to do something about this.

I agree with this all the way. These points definitely need implemented if we're going to pull a revamping of the voting system. I want some positive change for once.


[Report Rule-Breaking Portal Submissions] - [I don't actually have a personality]

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 22:28:18


At 1/12/15 10:02 PM, Bit wrote: Another flash game site might not have a cap, but I don't see how that means that Newgrounds shouldn't, either. Newgrounds has a great system.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say here. I agree that Newgrounds has a great system. But we're not talking about the current system, we're talking about the new system that's coming into place. And yes, the new system sounds great too, but there's this problem that I'm worried about.

Yes, I suppose we're not really in danger of running out of things to vote on because of all the new submissions coming in every day. But not everyone operates like you or uses Newgrounds the way you do. Maybe they don't want to play or watch the new stuff on any given day for whatever reason. Maybe they want to be credited for what they have rated because they don't rate or play that much stuff. If voting for no experience means you'll never get experience for that submission, that's incentive to not vote, which we don't want.

Although since I suppose the cap is important, there may be ways to solve this and keep the cap. Two more solutions I thought of. The system could automatically backlog the experience you'd get for voting so that if you vote for a bunch of stuff on one day you'll get experience for many days to come, even if you're inactive. It's kind of similar to having no cap but it keeps spammers from just immediately shooting up to a high level. Perhaps the better solution would be to have the submissions remember if you voted for them without getting XP so you can check in later to claim the XP.


I got Flash CS4 in case you need something converted to CS3.