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Voting System Overhaul Proposal

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:04:30


The current rating system is something I love about NG, but I get where you're going with this. It's probably also just a matter of liking what I've gotten used to, so meh.

I think the new format is designed well, but one thing I've always wanted was the ability to actually discuss games/movies/art. You can leave a review, sure, but you can't get into a discussion about it without going to the BBS - something most users probably won't bother to do, especially for a specific submission. I would love to see a discussion tab or panel somewhere. Keeping it separate from ratings is a must though unless we want NG reviews to devolve into the status of Youtube comments.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:08:23


Editable reviews, an emphasis on leveling up while emphasizing and encouraging reviews? I'm sold.

Vote 0 and 1 is still for blams and 2, 3, 4, and 5 saves?

Will there be any xp gained for submitting reviews?


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:09:38


At 1/12/15 12:52 PM, Psychopath wrote: I sincerely don't understand what's so wrong with the current voting system. I don't get why we're trying to appeal to the entitled little shits who aren't willing to fight for their alleged rightful place within the system and ditching the competitive nature the site was always known for.

Because design-wise, it's flawed, and it's healthy to face that issue instead of simply shrugging it off and pretending improvement is impossible. If you notice a lump, do you visit the doctor or walk around with it for 7 more months? Besides, as you mention, it seems like they're really just thinking about moving things around in slightly more logical places and cutting some fat, as opposed to actually changing the system's core, so what are you even angry about?


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:15:41


Sounds terrific! Especially the ability to write reviews detached from scoring - I hate needing to be numerically explicit about how much I think a piece sucks when I'm trying to write an encouraging you-can-do-better-here's-how review.

May I second the request for the ability to respond to author comments left on your review? I usually have to move to PMs at that point and its a pain in the ass. Otherwise I could maybe misuse the new review edit tool to continue a dialogue, but something made for the function would be preferable...

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:29:30


I really love the feel of this new system, I really do, but I'm worried about one thing.

Users can only vote once on each piece of content and can edit that vote whenever they want.

Obviously this is great to keep down spamming. Dedicated users already look for new content to vote on, but what percentage of NGers are just hitting the same stuff every day?

For more casual users, if they can't vote on the same five movies they've been voting on all week, is this a strong turn-off for them to vote at all?

The staff might have some stats on voting habits that could clear this up, but I'm wondering about people who just won't bother looking for new things to vote on -- especially since front page content tends to stick around for a while.

I know people might say, "those people already don't contribute much," but we don't need any help losing userbase.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:41:08


Bleh, I like the current system. Or rather, I like the score on the sidebar. Just give people XP for voting on art and audio. Take away review scores... they're the pointless ones. Just let people freely 'comment'.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:41:24


At 1/12/15 12:30 PM, TomFulp wrote:
Makes me wonder how this would go over across ALL Portals... On one hand it might stop someone from uploading an awesome movie they otherwise would have uploaded, on the other hand it gets a lot more artists to interact with each other and that would make the community more enticing overall.

Maybe there's another way we could implement that sort of system - maybe you can gain points this way but instead of spending those points to upload content, you spend them to get a spot in some promotional space somewhere. Variations on that sort of idea have come up in the past as well (spending points for promotion). Anything that encourages artists to review other artists more seems good.

I'm really not sure -- it was a great model for audio but I don't see it translating well to movies/games, as most viewers are not content providers. But I think the sentiment is spot on -- people should have motivation to not only leave reviews, but quality ones. Perhaps provide additional experience points to people who have "helpful" reviews, or give the most highly rated reviews a special spot in the reviews listing. Spending points for promotion seems like a great idea, and a fair one; why shouldn't those who are most active get some face time?

It's a tough call, because any time you try and increase quality standards (directly or indirectly), you're going to alienate a portion of the userbase. But I do think implementing a system like this would provide increased motivation for everyone to push themselves to provide quality content (reviews included).


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:46:16


At 1/12/15 01:09 PM, test-object wrote:
At 1/12/15 12:52 PM, Psychopath wrote: I sincerely don't understand what's so wrong with the current voting system. I don't get why we're trying to appeal to the entitled little shits who aren't willing to fight for their alleged rightful place within the system and ditching the competitive nature the site was always known for.
Because design-wise, it's flawed, and it's healthy to face that issue instead of simply shrugging it off and pretending improvement is impossible.

Pray tell, what are these flaws exactly? That it's too dynamic? That it breeds actual competition?

If you notice a lump, do you visit the doctor or walk around with it for 7 more months?

You're seriously comparing the current scoring system to cancer? Are you fucking autistic?

Besides, as you mention, it seems like they're really just thinking about moving things around in slightly more logical places and cutting some fat, as opposed to actually changing the system's core, so what are you even angry about?

No, he literally stated that the current scoring system would be disused and everything would be judged by a completely different set of score data. That would constitute changing the system's core so what are you even rambling about?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 13:46:57


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote:
Voting System Overhaul Proposal

Great idea Tom I've always wanted to drop even more XP on everything across the board.

I'm so excited!!


Just take the damn thing already!

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:10:32


@Tomfulp it doesn't need a overhaul though keep the 20 XP a daily, this isn't going to fix anything at all anyways this whole one-vote per submission thing is bullshit no matter what people will still complain about the score system its fine how it is. why not put your time into something actually worthwhile like that Lit Forum? that could grab lots of people from Fanfiction and Sexstories. or a stream service like Twitch for us gamers? you guys could easily do something like that if you put money into it what not.
instead of fucking with shit thats been the same historically hoping that it brings people in and giving into the Trophy Generation of "no ones a loser" or hurt anybody's "feelings", why not expand the audience for Newgrounds and then advertise the shit out of it? there's Gizmodo and Kotaku that could easily help especially when they publish on Facebook for their subscribers.
Edit: grammar and use of ?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:16:50


At 1/12/15 01:46 PM, Psychopath wrote: No, he literally stated that the current scoring system would be disused and everything would be judged by a completely different set of score data. That would constitute changing the system's core so what are you even rambling about?

You're the one rambling and ranting. If only you'd calm down for a second and don't take every argument as a personal insult, we'd go a long way, Psychopath. I only skimmed the thread (and your post) beforehand, but now I looked in Tom's post a bit deeper, I have a more informed look on it.

Pray tell, what are these flaws exactly? That it's too dynamic? That it breeds actual competition?

Well, apart from "dynamic" being a buzzword as opposed to being an actual argument, I definitely think reviewing isn't a competition. It's a way of telling an author how he or she could improve their work and it is their choice to do something with it or not. Roger Ebert wouldn't have chosen the profession he did if he wanted to be competitive.

Furthermore:
-There are 2 ways to judge a movie which is pointless busywork.
-The current system allows people to only upvote their own work and continuously zero-bomb others, which is dumb.
-I'd love to hide my score in reviews. Numbers don't matter anyway when it comes to rating an author's work anyway.
-I don't care all that much about XP right now, to be frank. Maybe this system would breath some new life into that?

You're seriously comparing the current scoring system to cancer? Are you fucking autistic?

It's a metaphor, pumpkin. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Even if it's nothing, it's worth having taken a look at certain aspects of design. You seem awfully against even the slightest amount of introspection.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:19:46


I think this is a fantastic idea! Full support! :D


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:25:09


That's hardly a constructive review Tom, shame on you.

But really though, I think I can dig it.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:27:54


At 1/12/15 01:08 PM, Phobotech wrote: Editable reviews, an emphasis on leveling up while emphasizing and encouraging reviews? I'm sold.

Vote 0 and 1 is still for blams and 2, 3, 4, and 5 saves?

Yup, although we do need a more clear way to vote zero in that mockup...


Will there be any xp gained for submitting reviews?

Nope. One concern that I mentioned earlier in the thread is it could result in low quality reviews, so tough to mess with that... Although we were also talking about incentives to encourage artists to write more reviews. :P


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:29:22


Giving XP for reviews could encourage people to leave more reviews and uploaders could get more feedback

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:45:20


I don't remember if you said earlier in the thread, but do you have an idea as to when this would be implemented? Or is this more in the planning stages and it won't change for awhile.


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uh... im sorry for having to be negative again.
but why is this needed?
if something isnt necessary for some reason, i think its always better to leave the things alone people got used to.
and i think voting is really important for NG. its even sad to think about the iconic characters of NG being gone with the voting buttons, but if there would be only one score it would be so simple and dull. i think the votes should stay like the votes that actually affect the score of a submission, and the reviews should stay like the reviews you can write, with a score only there to show how you personally would rate something, without it affecting the score of the submission.
what if you dont want to affect the score but want to show your personal score with the review?
the current system is just good for that. your review score is just for information, and for review scores, but it does get your review categorized... or.. you know, whatever it is called when you sort the reviews by score... instead of just writing it in the review like "10/10!!11"

i dont think the voting should be this closely related to reviews. , the should stay separated just like now and just like how it was for so many years.
voting on a submission more times gave freedom, and more competition.
since now, what will happen if you voted on something years ago, leveled and got your rank up by like 10 levels each? if you change your vote the new vote strength will apply?
and that exp bar.. what the hell why do something like that? the text right now explains everything just right, looks serious enough but still laid back. its like the NG staff talking to us.
what about the things like when your vote was the last needed for a submission to be protected or blammed? these were special occassions, for me at last.
getting exp for every vote seems unnecessary too... getting the whole thing only when you vote on 5 submissions seems like a good motivation to keep doing the voting at least until you got the exp. i think people will still do that anyway if they care about the exp, but if they dont, its less motivation for them to keep voting on things if they started it, or will get nothing.
and i always thought the audio and art portals are special places. that NG is mainly a flash portal, and thats why voting on those portals doesnt give exp. if people would get exp for voting there, they wouldnt need to view flash submissions to level up, and so they might view them less.

and having permanent reviews made people need to actually think through what they will write about. and gave opportunity for people to flag them and get their whistles better instead of the people just editing or deleting them.

uh.. so i dont know.
i thought you were like me, Mr Tom Fulp, in the sense that you wouldnt want to change something people got used to and used for like.. so many years.. and worked for so many years.
this site is one of the online homes of me, and i hope it can be one of the few that cares about and keeps the old values.. or like, values the old values.
wells thank you for asking people's opinion by the way, even if you change this , this will be one of the best websites.

uh i might be able to write more about this but i just want to post it quick so maybe you will see it

(oh and to the person above, giving exp for reviews would result in people trying to write reviews everywhere even if they wouldnt like to. it would just generate a lot of spam or un-thought out reviews...)

(uh i forgot to mention... double exp weekends dont sound too good...
it would create inbalance. i think there shouldnt be special times when you get more exp or whatever. a day shouldnt be more suitable for getting exp or anything else than an other. it wouldnt be right to try make it a habit for people to vote more on weekends, this isnt what they should come here for)

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:49:55


These changes sound like a great idea, honestly. I love the XP-per-vote idea rather than the current system, and the fact that we'd finally collapse the two different scores into one (I've had to try and explain to friends that there are TWO voting systems on any piece of content, and they were not getting it.)

One thing I'm wondering: For those that are against scoring but still write reviews... why wouldn't those people be able to gain XP as well? XP for either a score OR a review, and doing both is optional.

I've got an idea for this editing reviews thing... I personally love the idea of editing a review, because so often I look at something I wrote years ago and want to change something or I discover a typo a few months late, but at the same time I completely understand the potential for abuse. I kinda like the idea for a "backlog" of previous versions of a review, though that could get cluttered (though maybe there can just be a link that says "Edited. Click here for previous version(s)"?). But maybe this system could be left up to other NG users? Like the page could show the old version along with the new version, and leave other NG users with an option to vote on that edit. Enough good votes could then replace the review, but bad votes would keep the original?

Or, it could be left up to the author of the piece? Like they could get a notification that someone wants to edit a review, and they could see the edit and decide for themselves whether its acceptable or not. Maybe this could even be an option given to uploaders, whether reviews can be edited or not...

Lots of options here... No matter what, I'm excited for this overhaul, and I'm sure we'll get something good out of it no matter what. (Though I have to say that I was shocked with that huge NG overhaul that left the front page flashes WITHOUT descriptions! Or was it without titles? I can't even remember now, but whatever it was, it was pretty bad. Though I'm sure we won't have a repeat of that.)


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 14:59:11


At 1/12/15 02:45 PM, Viper wrote: I don't remember if you said earlier in the thread, but do you have an idea as to when this would be implemented? Or is this more in the planning stages and it won't change for awhile.

kind of like the Lit portal and a functional Chat? how long have those been in the works now? this is a waste time if you ask me why not add more categories like game streaming like Twitch a Lit Portal and a video sharing section go full on all media?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:02:46


Sounds great! I would love to enter the collab!


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:03:07


I think my only feedback currently would be to have the progress bar on the XP be green or ng yellow/orange. I realize its adopting the red stylesheet from the movies section but i dont think that's necessary considering its a universal progress bar. Red just looks too threatening rather than as something noting progression.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:15:18


Count me in! I'm so damn tired of all these assholes putting zeros on my shit every fucking day, this would be the cure!


Also since my PC no longer tolerates flash on newgrounds I can at least rate music through my iphone and get XP.

Audio/Art exp is awesome . Treating everyone equally is important i think . Still maybe we should have voice acting portal because voice actors get lost in audio submissions .

These are all good ideas Tom . Someone give him a cookie

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:16:33


Sounds Awesome, sign me up. I have alittle more time over the weekends and would love to rank in a little extra xp. Hope it runs smoothly!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:18:27


I have been waiting for this ever since you announced the change was coming. I'm really liking a lot of the proposals, especially the 1 vote per user per submission, because there's always problems with people continually voting on the same thing, whether they're 0-bombing or not.

It's a bit concerning that curent score data will not be used, so hopefully some way to handle scores on previous submissions can be figured out. I don't see why the previous scores can't be left alone or merged with review scores and all new content after the change uses the new data.

And some questions I have that don't seem to have been asked yet:

Since votes are now related to reviews, will we still be able to vote on our own submissions?

Will we be able to hide our vote initially and then write a review later?

It's very apparent that review scores are more accurate to quality than vote scores, because a majority of votes on something are statwhores voting 2, so hopefully this new system fixes that. I'm a bit concerned how this will effect the underjudgement process and everything else on the site that involves submission scores, like awards and stuff. My concern is that this would cause less people to be voting, or for votes to occur less frequently so stuff would be underjudgement longer and the portal would be backed up again :/

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:20:35


Does this mean we lose Pico's and Nene's quotes?


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:20:57


At 1/12/15 02:46 PM, armydanywolf wrote: this site is one of the online homes of me, and i hope it can be one of the few that cares about and keeps the old values.. or like, values the old values.
wells thank you for asking people's opinion by the way, even if you change this , this will be one of the best websites.

We're working to hold onto the old values that mean a lot to us, while there are other old values that we've always been trying to improve on.

To answer some of the questions of "why now" - as we work towards a new adaptive layout, every page of the site will need to be re-written. It's a good time to try and unify systems that didn't manage to be unified in the past (for example the Art Portal still has different code in its review system than the other portals) and also a good time to simplify systems. The new layout will have ability to re-arrange based on the size of the screen you are using. This means everything on the page will function both in the desktop version and the touch version on mobile. That sort of change makes rollover information less desirable (no one on mobile would be reading rollover comments on the Pico vote bar). It also makes it less desirable to have a page with two vote bars. The mobile view will be single column, so you would end up with a page that has a Pico vote bar followed by a star vote bar for the review in the same column as you scroll down.

The change for mobile isn't the only reason why this is happening though, I wouldn't even say it's the biggest reason because this change has been a discussion item during every NG redesign in history. The whole mobile angle is just another checkmark in the "PRO" column that has made this change all the more compelling.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:23:40


this change is nothing but FUBAR. it doesn't need changing at all when you should be expanding.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:25:16


It sounds like I'll have to review a lot more stuff to get my daily XP.

I might even have to review...movies... >_>

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 15:25:19


At 1/12/15 03:18 PM, artistunknown wrote: It's a bit concerning that curent score data will not be used, so hopefully some way to handle scores on previous submissions can be figured out. I don't see why the previous scores can't be left alone or merged with review scores and all new content after the change uses the new data.

There are a lot of scores that have been hurt by malicious activity so it's hard to see it as salvageable. Hoping we can create some nice incentives for people to dig through NG history and vote.

Since votes are now related to reviews, will we still be able to vote on our own submissions?

You would still be able to vote on your own submission.

Will we be able to hide our vote initially and then write a review later?

Yes. Under the current plan, the vote is essentially hidden until a review is written, anyway.

My concern is that this would cause less people to be voting, or for votes to occur less frequently so stuff would be underjudgement longer and the portal would be backed up again :/

The judgment process is registered users hunting B/P points anyway so that shouldn't be impacted. Also it won't fix that fact that a lot of content comes out of judgment with lower scores than it deserves. Hopefully there will be enough voting activity to lift things up to where they belong. It would be cool if artists actually told their friends to go vote for their stuff on NG, that never seems to happen... Doubt this would change that but would be nice to see.


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