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Voting System Overhaul Proposal

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At 1/12/15 10:55 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 10:08 AM, Sectus wrote: Well, you could always develop a vote bar that can be toggled on and off in the user options that is designed in the 5 star format, but implements the faces of Pico in it for more nostalgic members.

Just ignore me if my ideas are silly.
That has actually been considered. :)

That's a great idea. I always liked how the audio and art portals had their own voting bar designs. I very much appreciate that the site is taking steps towards legibility and simplifying, but only having stars appears bland and almost generic in comparison to NG's original designs. I remember your struggle to find a more original word than "fave'ing" for the feed system, and I kind of feel the same about stars vs Pico & Co.

*EDIT* Scratch that score question, I saw you already answered this. But here's another: Could you combine the old scores and votes to save thousands of flashes from not having a single score at all? Wouldn't it cause trouble with the Under Judgement system you have in place??

A 15 minute time window to edit your review will basically beat the point of the editable reviews. Unless you manage to link the edit button to eventual file updates by the author, so you can edit it for 15 minutes PLUS whenever it's updated.

Other than that, the review mockup looks good and simple. On the one hand I like the idea of only one spot for a score and on the other hand, the difference between review and voting score was very interesting at times.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:28:17


I like the idea, most importantly disallowing daily voting on the same submission.

Could the "game" aspect of the XP be more played up? What's the benefit of getting xp? It's "leveling up" which changes your level icon... so maybe show the current level icon and a preview of the next level icon that fills in pixels as you get closer? Then have a cool "you leveled up!" animation when you make the change?

Seems like that used to happen back in the day, but has been downplayed, but I like that kind of stuff... maybe it was removed for a more streamlined experience tailored to the ADD generation?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:30:00


Also, editable reviews are great, especially for games where bug fixes and feedback aften lead to newer versions that invalidate old reviews. I vote "No" on a time limit for editing review and score, but perhaps keep a log of edits so people can see the changes.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:34:02


At 1/12/15 11:23 AM, CrackerJack30 wrote: Just one thought that crossed my mind: When 200 people vote, but only 20 of them leave a review with the vote, do I have to switch through numerous pages with empty text boxes to reach a real review?

If they don't leave a review, their vote won't be listed.

That's another discussion topic - should you be able to see the complete vote record of your entry? We have the checkbox next to the score so a user can determine if their vote is public or not - however this is currently only relevant to whether it will show alongside a review. We COULD give authors access to ALL public votes on their entry... I imagine people who vote low would probably want to keep their votes private, especially if they are voting low on spam.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:36:50


Sounds great, my only recommendation is instead of having a "Show Score" button, have a "Hide Score" button. It should be defaulted to show the score.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:37:57


I'm in. Double EXP weekend sounds like a great idea.


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no it doesn't need a overhaul though keep the 20 XP a daily, this isn't going to fix anything at all anyways this whole one-vote per submission thing is bullshit. why not put your time into something actually worthwhile like that Lit Forum? that could grab lots of people from Fanfiction and Sexstories. or a stream service like Twitch for us gamers? you guys could easily do something like that if you put money into it what not.

instead of fucking with shit thats been the same historically hoping that it brings people in and giving into the Trophy Generation of "no ones a loser" or hurt anybody's "feelings", why not expand the audience for Newgrounds and then advertise the shit out of it? there's Gizmodo and Kotaku that could easily help especially when they publish on Facebook for their subscribers.

Edit: grammar and use of ?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:43:45


At 1/12/15 11:28 AM, BoMToons wrote: Could the "game" aspect of the XP be more played up? What's the benefit of getting xp? It's "leveling up" which changes your level icon... so maybe show the current level icon and a preview of the next level icon that fills in pixels as you get closer? Then have a cool "you leveled up!" animation when you make the change?

Seems like that used to happen back in the day, but has been downplayed, but I like that kind of stuff... maybe it was removed for a more streamlined experience tailored to the ADD generation?

I would love TONS of bells and whistles around NG. I wish I had personally kept up enough with web development to integrate flashy little things with javascript... I look into it once in a while and decide it would distract too much from game dev.

In the old days we had lots of fun Flash stuff when you voted. That was gonna make a return with the 2007 redesign but the animations were never completely finished and I think some were lost over the course of time. It's really sad because I still want to integrate them for blam/protect.

I would definitely like a nice LEVEL UP response as well... NG did feel more like a game in the early days, then in recent years we downplayed the game/stats aspect. I let pushback into my head about that stuff being "childish" and we reduced it in 2012 to the detriment of the user experience for a lot of people.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:46:46


At 1/12/15 11:34 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 11:23 AM, CrackerJack30 wrote: Just one thought that crossed my mind: When 200 people vote, but only 20 of them leave a review with the vote, do I have to switch through numerous pages with empty text boxes to reach a real review?
If they don't leave a review, their vote won't be listed.

That's another discussion topic - should you be able to see the complete vote record of your entry? We have the checkbox next to the score so a user can determine if their vote is public or not - however this is currently only relevant to whether it will show alongside a review. We COULD give authors access to ALL public votes on their entry... I imagine people who vote low would probably want to keep their votes private, especially if they are voting low on spam.

Oh, ok, I didn't get this at the first moment, thanks for clearing it up.
For the reason mentioned in your last sentence, I guess the option to keep your vote private is somehwat necessary.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 11:57:25


At 1/12/15 10:59 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 10:25 AM, The-Eternal-Abyss wrote: do tell me this , tom... as it is right now the star system is a bit more accurate from the rating system, as you noticed , and that is because 0 and 5 bombing voters tend not to put the effort into reviewing flash , so with one rating system in place how do you think that will effect the ratings of a flash ?, I can foresee a terrible outcome .
This is a good point and is scary...
We could still have the option of only looking at the scores attached to reviews, if we wanted to come up with a dedicated "review score" stat.

I think The-Eternal-Abyss made a very good point: I was trying to write something similar but my English is too bad ;-) .
Also a dedicated "review score" could be used for the underdog trophy: review score vs. global score.


Seems like a pretty good plan! I'll miss the Pico character voting bar, but I understand why we have to move forward. My only thing with the new voting bar is that in it's default appearance, maybe we could make it more clear that you aren't required to leave a vote and a review.

why am i saying "we?" I don't work at NG...

Sounds pretty good, but i'll miss seeing Pico's and everyone elses faces on the scores.
Also, there should definitely be a time window to be able to edit reviews, but if possible, there shouldnt be a time window to edit the score itself, if its possible to separate the two. Or just make it possible to edit reviews/score if a game gets updated.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:07:14


Overall I like the idea if it keeps the 0 bombs away.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:09:36


Tom, I think this is awesome. It harkens back to the pre-2007 design, where audio portal tracks could only be voted on once. While it feels restrictive, it makes infinitely more sense, and should help cut back on impulsive zero-voters. I had a 2 year period where someone was going through my entire list of music and zero-bombing every day (or close to it). That's a little ridiculous, and totally defeats the purpose of voting.

Somewhat of an aside, but it may give you ideas:

There was an old music review site called garageband.com (before Apple bought the domain), which had a really awesome system. Here's how it worked, IIRC:
1. To submit a song, you had to earn 30 "points", which could be earned by either leaving a review on a song, or rating an existing review.
2. Higher-rated reviews earned the author of the review more points; rating a review earned a point or two as well. If your rating of a review was in-line with other review ratings, you earned more points (incentive to accurately rate a review).
3. When you submit a song, you use 30 points.
4. You could purchase points for a small fee, to help fund the website.
5. The highest ranked songs each month earned the authors points.

Now while I wouldn't advocate for a system like this (as it really undermines the openness of Newgrounds), it was extremely effective at generating constructive, high-quality reviews. Song ratings were very accurate, and the musicians received fantastic feedback. To this day, I haven't seen a better review system -- I got some of my best feedback from the site.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:17:14


Reallly cool. I want it!


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:19:40


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: The new voting system will be universal for all Portals (games, movies, audio, art).

On weekends you will be able to log up to 20 XP daily.

Once you write a review, it always appears above the other reviews on the page, so you can see what you wrote and edit (or delete?) if desired.

Great Job!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:24:19


while i do like the new updates, i am not fond of the 2XP+2XP+2XP per day adding up to the 10 daily XP login.
i prefer the old system of 5 votes per day+10XP deposit.

also, will the new review stars scores co-exist with the 0-5 voting system or will the 0-5 votes will be replaced with JUST the review stars for rating movies/games?

also i like the idea of getting XP for voting on music and art. thats a clever move, and it is very very needed.

however, i DO have a STRONG objection on the ''reviews without score/stars'' or AKA the ''review without a score''.

i mean, if reviews have no stars/rating, then whats the point of rating? every bad movie should have a low-star rating review, and every good movie should have a high-star rating as a reward for its quality/artwork/story.
afterall, why do people are anti-scoring, if the purpose of rating someone's work is so that we can make them improve?

and thats why im against review-editing.
if everyone can edit their reviews, then spammers can edit their reviews to non-offensive reviews, and thus they can evade bans & their violation of the rules will never be noticed...
likewise, someone who wrote a mean review showing extreme dislike to an artist, can edit it afterwards to a more ''positive/artist-friendly'' version, in order to not sound offensive anymore.

lastly, the ability to edit every single review anytime, will be a HUGE burden for the site's system and servers, since it will need alot of programming.

IN SHORT:

-keep the 5 votes per day/10XP deposit per day system,
-add the new element of getting XP for voting art/music,
-maintain the reviews as they were, and
-do not give the people the ability to edit their reviews, because the reviews will be edited at any time so that they can evade banishments/rule violations.

that is all. i hope that NG will always evolve, and that it will always be epic, because its a great place to be.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:30:13


I dislike Author Comments and Reviews being merged into one box, seeing as those are two semantically different things, but I like the idea overall.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:30:50


At 1/12/15 12:09 PM, DavidOrr wrote: 1. To submit a song, you had to earn 30 "points", which could be earned by either leaving a review on a song, or rating an existing review.

Makes me wonder how this would go over across ALL Portals... On one hand it might stop someone from uploading an awesome movie they otherwise would have uploaded, on the other hand it gets a lot more artists to interact with each other and that would make the community more enticing overall.

Maybe there's another way we could implement that sort of system - maybe you can gain points this way but instead of spending those points to upload content, you spend them to get a spot in some promotional space somewhere. Variations on that sort of idea have come up in the past as well (spending points for promotion). Anything that encourages artists to review other artists more seems good.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:31:14


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote:
Let me know your thoughts on this plan!

I like it!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:35:17


I personally love this idea, especially the idea of 20 exp. per day on weekends.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:39:30


I don't get it, so you HAVE to review it to give it a score and get XP or am I completely lost


 

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:39:44


Fuck yeah son!


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:39:53


New voting system sounds interesting, but I'm concerned as to how this will affect zero-bombing in the audio portal, whether it will minimize its effects or make it harder to reverse. If audio portal votes will also log experience, I'll be happy, though. I've been looking forward to that for ages.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:40:33


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote:
The new voting system will be universal for all Portals (games, movies, audio, art).

You will gain 2 XP for each vote, with a max of 10 XP daily.

On weekends you will be able to log up to 20 XP daily.

XP is logged instantly, no more five vote minimum requirement.

Seriously, I really love this, You don't know how many time I voted 3 -4 times a day, and then got lazy at the end and never did it the 5th time. I'm sure a lot of Newgrounds have been through this too.

You can hide your score or submit a review without a score (many people are anti-scoring).

You're right about that, I think that's one of the biggest issue with the review and score thing. That was basically one of my friend's biggest turn offs from reviewing.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:50:37


Hate the weekend thing. Prefer only 10exp a day.

Hate the stars. Keep the old voting buttons with clear numbers (1 2 3 4 5). The stars are messy.

Miss voting more than once in awesome submissions that I revisit months later... To reaffirm. :(


Sounds nice,i've been waiting for the process to get a little easier to make it count on all things being voted on.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-12 12:52:04


I sincerely don't understand what's so wrong with the current voting system. I don't get why we're trying to appeal to the entitled little shits who aren't willing to fight for their alleged rightful place within the system and ditching the competitive nature the site was always known for.

What's so progressive about this exactly? It's literally the same system as before only crammed into the review section. I can see a lot of people up and ditching over this if it were implemented as some people only come here for the shit you're attempting to remove. Why is fighting over a score such a bad thing? It means repeat views of the same submission, doesn't it? Doesn't that generally mean a bump in ad revenue?

If your main concern regards people exploiting and abusing the current system then I can guarantee that people will exploit this new system even harder or ignore it outright given how nonsensical it is; the latter especially given the fact that many of the people you've explained this to are already confused by it and I doubt that a tutorial will help.

Let me ask you this, since you'd be ditching the current system and using review scores as the submission's main score, wouldn't that mean that submissions without any reviews would undeservedly be pushed down to the bottom of every list? What about submissions with already high scores but no reviews? What about submissions with shitty scores but only good reviews from their friends? Would they undeservedly jump to the top of the list?

This idea is backwards, unintuitive and retarded. There is no point in fucking up a system that everyone is already used to using. This shit is something that Youtube would do.

Since copying Youtube is the general direction you're going in anyway, why not just replace the reviews with comments? The endless flamewars would drive your ad revenue through the roof.


At 1/12/15 12:52 PM, Psychopath wrote: Since copying Youtube is the general direction you're going in anyway, why not just replace the reviews with comments? The endless flamewars would drive your ad revenue through the roof.

All of these changes have been debated since before YouTube even existed. We launched the Audio Portal with one vote per user in 2003 because even back then it's what we wanted to change the Flash Portal to (instead the Audio Portal became more unified with the Flash Portal in 2007). Making a score optional in reviews is also a longstanding issue because people have been telling me since the beginning that they don't like having to score something in order to give it a critique.

Not to mention YouTube doesn't have scoring at all, just thumbs up/down - another voting method we debated on NG since before the Portal even launched in 2000.


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At 1/12/15 09:44 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/12/15 09:42 AM, Sectus wrote: I'm guessing that it will work the same as the forum post system, or perhaps with a shorter time you can edit.

Or maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. I just don't really think it is a good idea to allow for review edits.
If we decide long-term editing is bad, we COULD try doing the 15 minute window and just allow a long-term score edit option to reflect a change of opinion.

I don't think a long-term edit time is bad if you're also planning on backlogging previous edits. That being said, I think it might be interesting to also integrate replies to reviews for people other than the original author.

So for example, somebody writes a review that has addresses some issues. Somebody else knows about the issue and either corrects OP or offers a solution to it. Someone else has something to say on the matter and comments on it.

I think it'd help bring more constructive conversations about any given article (movie, game, audio, art, etc.) and encourage people to comment if they don't feel restricted to only one post.

Edit: just to be clear, only the original review would have XP and a score attached to it, but people could vote for pertinence for any given comment, similar to what's already in place.

Just my 2 cents...