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Voting System Overhaul Proposal

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-16 21:45:16


Sounds good!

But it took so long.

Hmmmm....


Fuck you too! <3

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-16 22:22:20


After a little more reading, I thought it would be worth it to chime in again.

I don't like the idea of 0-star ratings demanding a written review. The very first reason for this is because the proposed 'hide review/ rating' feature makes this too easy to sidestep. Additionally, there would be nothing stopping me from copying and pasting a review that I completely agree with. Giving myself a little more credit, if one person give a good review and I agree wholeheartedly, am I in danger of getting my review labeled as 'spam' or 'abusive'? A continually repeated criticism can come off as abuse even if it is honest and warranted. This also rewards people who make spam flashes by wasting even more of people's time to clear out server space for real submissions. I would also worry about the potential for flame wars rising from the sparks of a forced negative review. Can the moderators oversee every fight that pops up? Are artists free to bury rightful critiques of their work as 'abusive' without any challenge from the reviewer?

I also don't like the idea of Adblock-blocking. I will admit this is because I use Adblock myself, but I have reasons beyond that. I do want to support NG and it's artists, but with no money I decided to whitelist NG in so I could do the very least I could do. However, the ads got to be intrusive enough to keep me from enjoying the site at all. Passing through a movie's page just to get to the author's page ended up with me losing control of any page navigation for half a minute. The way I see it, my 'theft' of content by circumventing ads is one step above not coming to site at all, because this way I can still enjoy and spread word that I enjoyed the things I found here. Snubbing me because I use Adblock to keep my experiences here enjoyable is NG cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-16 23:36:02


I like it!!


I'LL SHOW YOU MY NEW MOVE!

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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-16 23:36:19


Question about XP, will votes only count towards it when the content is under judgement like currently?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 00:54:46


At 1/16/15 11:36 PM, yetanotherjohn wrote: Question about XP, will votes only count towards it when the content is under judgement like currently?

You get xp for voting for a game or video whether it is under judgement or not. The under judgement rating is what gives you the blam/protects.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 01:08:28


At 1/17/15 12:54 AM, mattanderson776 wrote: You get xp for voting for a game or video whether it is under judgement or not. The under judgement rating is what gives you the blam/protects.

Whoops, thanks for clearing that up.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 01:10:15


At 1/16/15 10:22 PM, arghjustkillme wrote: I also don't like the idea of Adblock-blocking. I will admit this is because I use Adblock myself, but I have reasons beyond that. I do want to support NG and it's artists, but with no money I decided to whitelist NG in so I could do the very least I could do. However, the ads got to be intrusive enough to keep me from enjoying the site at all. Passing through a movie's page just to get to the author's page ended up with me losing control of any page navigation for half a minute. The way I see it, my 'theft' of content by circumventing ads is one step above not coming to site at all, because this way I can still enjoy and spread word that I enjoyed the things I found here. Snubbing me because I use Adblock to keep my experiences here enjoyable is NG cutting off its nose to spite its face.

I do have adblock installed on my browser that I occasionally turn on and off, and I noticed that they have a message show up before a video loads which is really what gave me the thought. They didn't seem to try to stop you from using adblock, more or less just a reminder that ads help, so I don't really see what I was saying actually be implemented into the voting system, it's just more of an idea. The thought I had was if you want to build up your voting power to help out artists, the people who actually allow ads to show up would be able to get this extra power. Plus it isn't really that big of a deal to pause adblock for 5-10 votes then enable it after xp would be banked. I see where you're coming from, it's just an idea to get a few more pages of ad views.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 01:14:26


@tomfulp

I'll be at MAGFest as well representing indiegameriot.com! I'll see you there!

As for the voting system, I'm all for it. Especially only allowing one vote per person. it helps the scres from getting skewed by 0 bombs and repeat 5's from the creator and friends.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 04:39:02


sounds like a diff voting system could be good...:3

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 05:13:32


At 1/12/15 10:31 AM, Vii wrote: 2xp per vote will definitely help me gain something at least. It may even allow people to watch the content more instead of just voting on five videos for xp! Good one Tom.

I'm thinking in addition to weekends, a Double Xp bonus should also be earned when a Newgrounds Holiday comes to being, such as Madness Day, Clock Day and so forth.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 06:57:47


I'll allow it.


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: All existing score data will be backed up but no longer used. Review scores will become the new existing score data.

Yes!

Users can only vote once on each piece of content and can edit that vote whenever they want.

Yes!

The score that shows in your review is the same score as your vote, there is just one location on the page to enter you score.

Yes!

You can hide your score or submit a review without a score (many people are anti-scoring).

Yes!

Combined voting and reviewing box, default appearance.

Yes!

Let me know your thoughts on this plan!

I love it @TomFulp!

Can I ask for one for the owner of the content (art, animation, game, music) to hide his/her Main Average Score from public? Can we make that an option? This will discourage users to vote depending on that score, making sure they are not influenced by it. I don't mind how it sorts it, but those who are anti-scoring (me :P ) would love to hide the overall average score, and make peoples reviews the real reward (and if people choose to score it), not a quantified number adding everyones together. If I could disable the visibility of it then it helps the individual voice come through.

Certainly great to hear you've considered a lot of the thoughts we've all spoke about. Appreciate it! This is definitely a great step!


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At 1/16/15 10:22 PM, arghjustkillme wrote:
I don't like the idea of 0-star ratings demanding a written review. The very first reason for this is because the proposed 'hide review/ rating' feature makes this too easy to sidestep.

Well of course the review would have to be shown by default. There would be no point in forcing a review if it could be hidden. The point of a review is to be constructive. Can't be constructive if nobody can read it.

The main difference is that your name will be attached to the review, so repeated 0 votes can be spotted and taken care of easily. There was a user a few days ago who zero-bombed all of the frontpage art entries and a lot of the popular ones, leaving a comment entirely consistent of "WATWATWATWATWAT". This particular guy was dumb enough to leave reviews and was taken care of. There are many users, some with multiple accounts, doing the same thing but, because they never leave reviews, there's no effective way to handle them.

Of course the one vote per user thing will take care of this, to an extent. But there is no doubt these people are still damaging to an atmosphere that is supposed to be about artistic growth.

As far as hiding the score of a piece. I agree that should be an option. But I just want to put this out there:

People, the score is an AVERAGE for a reason. Stop voting for the purpose of lowering or raising a score. Give a piece a score YOU think it deserves, not a 0 because you think the AVERAGE is too high. The average is not for you to decide alone. That's why it's an average. Voting a 2 just to drop a piece's rating from 4.5 to 4.3, when you actually thought the piece deserved a 4, is like submitting 5 ballots for your preferred candidate in an election. You're not supposed to be trying to impose your opinion on the scores of others by stuffing the ballet box.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 07:56:35


At 1/17/15 07:47 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
Can I ask for one for the owner of the content (art, animation, game, music) to hide his/her Main Average Score from public? Can we make that an option? This will discourage users to vote depending on that score, making sure they are not influenced by it. I don't mind how it sorts it, but those who are anti-scoring (me :P ) would love to hide the overall average score, and make peoples reviews the real reward (and if people choose to score it), not a quantified number adding everyones together. If I could disable the visibility of it then it helps the individual voice come through.

Certainly great to hear you've considered a lot of the thoughts we've all spoke about. Appreciate it! This is definitely a great step!

I agree, hiding scores would make people more likely to listen to tracks regardless of score and nobody would vote down unless they left a review. I know some people don't like to show a score, but people could easily zero bomb and hide their score even if it was a positive review, catch my dift @tomfulp ?

It's sad :( but true. Unless you hide the main star scores, and force the review scores to be visible, zero bombing won't stop. Simply hiding the scores won't do it, it'll get taken advantage of. We have to get the zero bombers out of their little hidey holes and smoke them out, we'll finally win. You know, I've always had this idea for a flash cartoon for years about zero bombers, but haven't been able to get it out there. It involved war, tankmen, and bomber planes...lol.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 08:16:40


At 1/17/15 07:56 AM, RealFaction wrote:
At 1/17/15 07:47 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
Can I ask for one for the owner of the content (art, animation, game, music) to hide his/her Main Average Score from public? Can we make that an option? This will discourage users to vote depending on that score, making sure they are not influenced by it. I don't mind how it sorts it, but those who are anti-scoring (me :P ) would love to hide the overall average score, and make peoples reviews the real reward (and if people choose to score it), not a quantified number adding everyones together. If I could disable the visibility of it then it helps the individual voice come through.

Certainly great to hear you've considered a lot of the thoughts we've all spoke about. Appreciate it! This is definitely a great step!
I agree, hiding scores would make people more likely to listen to tracks regardless of score and nobody would vote down unless they left a review. I know some people don't like to show a score, but people could easily zero bomb and hide their score even if it was a positive review, catch my dift @tomfulp ?

It's sad :( but true. Unless you hide the main star scores, and force the review scores to be visible, zero bombing won't stop. Simply hiding the scores won't do it, it'll get taken advantage of. We have to get the zero bombers out of their little hidey holes and smoke them out, we'll finally win. You know, I've always had this idea for a flash cartoon for years about zero bombers, but haven't been able to get it out there. It involved war, tankmen, and bomber planes...lol.

I agree. The solution would be, you can choose to leave a score then when reviewing. If you do, it's visible. If you don't no score shows, and nothing is counted. People who who would choose to hide their score would do it because they want their feedback to be main drive of the information. Not the score, either that or it's malicious as you say. So what I suggest somewhat may solve it. But yeah - I'd really like to include the main average score to have optional visibility. As you say, its forces someone to listen to the tracks, play the game or watch the movie before they pass judgment. As thats driving to a better system.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 08:56:58


awesome just awesome finally edits and stuff and more xp


I agree entirely with the proposal. This is great!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 10:18:15


At 1/15/15 02:58 PM, Darwin7 wrote: Boooooooooooooooo

please explain your disagreement and provide ideas of what you think is good
(dont feel bad that you dont agree with the majority, we cant agree on everything)

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 11:43:56


Since you plan to make reviews more important for the site, are there any plans to change anything about review ratings? (like; people find this review helpful! and such) I see maybe some potential to make something with it too? Perhaps underdog can have something to do with it?

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 13:17:08


At 1/17/15 08:16 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
I agree. The solution would be, you can choose to leave a score then when reviewing. If you do, it's visible. If you don't no score shows, and nothing is counted.

Sounds like a good idea. Since they're going to be keeping track of every user's score on every piece, might aswell do this.

The anonymity behind our current voting system is causing users to become detached from the scores they give. If you can't stand behind your opinion, then there's no point in submitting it.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 15:22:58


Awwww, but in 10 more days I'll be at level 30.

I really want to know what the intention is in the change. What effect are you trying to achieve with how users interact with the site. From a UX perspective I'm very interested in the reasons behind the change.

Also, from a design standpoint I'd like to see my current level to the left of the XP progress bar and my upcoming level to right. It gives the user better context. Also when you vote currently it tells you how powerful your voting is (your one vote is worth 7.09 votes of someone not signed in). That's very satisfying information. Again, it gives context to why your level matters.

How are we carrying over the current levels. You said they'd be stashed away, does that mean the years it took to get me to level 30 are worthless now? It takes a lot of work to come back consistently every 24 hours and deposit the 5 votes. There's no real way around the system, you have to be dedicated to reach a high level. And each level takes longer to get to than the last. I remember when I had reached a level and found out it would take over a month of daily dedication to reach another level. It felt like an achievement. Like the mere fact it takes this long to get to the next level means, I am that much further than anyone else.

How are you going to carry over that clout and seniority to the new system? Seeing a level on Steam or Kongregate doesn't really have any meaning like it does here. If I see someone with a high level here, it's instant respect. That person didn't sign up years ago and just showed up again to say something, they've been here the whole time.

The current system kept me coming back because I knew it was just a quick chore of sitting through 5 ads I didn't care about, voting a 5 on stuff from my favorites list and leaving. Every once in a while though I'd look around on the homepage, look through the new spotlighted stuff, watch some of the series that were up or stuff from artists I liked. I'm wondering how this change will effect myself and others behavior, right now I'm expecting I won't be coming here nearly as often any more, especially if my level is reset to 0. I'm pretty much out at that point.

TLDR

1. What's the reasoning behind the changes
2. Give the design better context
3. Is there any displayed record or carryover of current system or are high leveled folks getting screwed
4. I TURNED ADBLOCK OFF FOR YOU FULP! YEARS AGO! I NEVER DO THAT! DON'T SCREW ME OVER MAN!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 16:22:29


At 1/14/15 03:14 PM, TomFulp wrote:
At 1/14/15 12:27 PM, Aprime wrote: But if I was to vote on the same submission I voted on the previous day, this wouldn't count towards my 10xp? Or would it?

I'm assuming it wouldn't? Which is good, it will have people looking at more submissions and voting on those rather than just pressing 5 on everything on the front page.
That is correct, you would need to find new things to vote on to gain additional XP. It's a bummer for people who like to come back and upvote their favorites but still feels like the way forward.

I think that changing your vote should still give you XP because people who want to quickly deposit XP will just vote 0 or 5 on random submissions.
Also if increase in users voting power will not apply to past votes then editing vote with new voting power should grant XP.

While I'm talking about voting power I will say that it should be increased for loyal users. Considering how much time they spend on the portal I assume their votes are far more accurate. Maximum voting power should be 100 instead of 16; this shouldn't have huge impact because of how small number of people have high levels & ranks.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 17:17:49


At 1/17/15 03:22 PM, TheJaredWilcurt wrote: I really want to know what the intention is in the change. What effect are you trying to achieve with how users interact with the site. From a UX perspective I'm very interested in the reasons behind the change.

I think the general reason for this is they're trying to create a newer site design, and they want to unify the voting system, since the audio and art portal were put in after the games/movies portal, and having a site-wide voting system would be better to have. The changes also are coming from some people being confused with the two areas to vote on a submission, so they want to push that down to one and add a few changes to make the submission's score more accurate like the one vote per submission per account.

Also, from a design standpoint I'd like to see my current level to the left of the XP progress bar and my upcoming level to right. It gives the user better context. Also when you vote currently it tells you how powerful your voting is (your one vote is worth 7.09 votes of someone not signed in). That's very satisfying information. Again, it gives context to why your level matters.

I like this idea of the whole progress bar design, like they were saying before to make newground have a feel like you're playing a game. I think someone before said to have the current level icon on the left, and the next level's icon to the right, but that make make it a little more cluttered, but a number would fit in there nicely. The text is also pretty nice, and I'm sure it could be incorporated into the design somewhere without having too much there. At least they should have a "voting power = 7.09" with a question mark icon next to it that would have that info when you hover over it or something.

How are we carrying over the current levels. You said they'd be stashed away, does that mean the years it took to get me to level 30 are worthless now? It takes a lot of work to come back consistently every 24 hours and deposit the 5 votes. There's no real way around the system, you have to be dedicated to reach a high level. And each level takes longer to get to than the last. I remember when I had reached a level and found out it would take over a month of daily dedication to reach another level. It felt like an achievement. Like the mere fact it takes this long to get to the next level means, I am that much further than anyone else.

I'm pretty sure the only thing that is being archived and not used is the score for the submissions and be replaced with the review score. I'm pretty sure your current xp won't be affected since you're still getting the same amount of xp per day (except for the bonus weekends), it just deposits xp right away instead of needing to vote on 5 per day.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 17:35:14


At 1/17/15 04:22 PM, Vivil wrote: I think that changing your vote should still give you XP because people who want to quickly deposit XP will just vote 0 or 5 on random submissions.

People who want to quickly deposit will still probably do that anyways, there's nothing you can really do about that unless there was some time thing added to it, but I just don't really see that being added. The thought is that if you want xp you should go out and find new things to vote on to maybe discover new artists and things that you like. Plus with the audio and art being included in this, it gives a lot more content to vote on so there shouldn't really be a need to grant xp on editing the votes, even if you're someone who only clicks on frontpaged content.

Also if increase in users voting power will not apply to past votes then editing vote with new voting power should grant XP.

While I'm talking about voting power I will say that it should be increased for loyal users. Considering how much time they spend on the portal I assume their votes are far more accurate. Maximum voting power should be 100 instead of 16; this shouldn't have huge impact because of how small number of people have high levels & ranks.

With voting power, I will agree that voting power should be amped up a bit since you can only vote on one submission, but maybe a little less drastic change than 16>100. With voting power applying to past votes, it is something else that should be decided on; whether there is going to be a global update to scores whenever someone votes, or if you'll need to go back to the page and manually update the score yourself. I am inclined to be with the latter, since if you want to update your score to a piece, you should take the time to view it again, and maybe you'll have a different opinion of it this time.

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-17 22:52:54


Sounds very good to me, I like the idea of being able to edit great thought looking forward to it

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-18 03:02:37


Kinda a first time weigh in on this...normally I don't say a peep. Overall, I think a wonderful idea. The review edit thing kind of on the fence there. I agree one should have the ability to rethink things through and maybe take back harsh criticism for a fix that was needed. But what's the limit...I'd say maybe a week, tops. After that, permanent your review and score is. So XP for art, vid, games and audio...man, it's like Christmas. Nice on that part, no absolutely no complaints over here. Just the note on reviews...48hrs to a week. Because a reviewer may need that kind of time to just get back to NG because of work and so forth to make a needed change if a complaint lodged was actually dealt with. Hell, might have to bother an admin type to set stuff right, if that is possible. Just my thought to eliminate that need. Should be done as a reminder in email on here, I think. That way reviewers have no excuse to not notice what they are doing and make needed changes if warranted.
Later
MD13.

At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: Quick news: @Troisnyx is organizing a Newgrounds 20th Anniversary Collab! Respond in that thread if you'd like to participate!

My MAGFest talk was moved to 12pm on Sunday, Jan 25th. Come and say hi! Current NG attendees.

Voting System Overhaul Proposal

Please respond with feedback!

The new voting system will be universal for all Portals (games, movies, audio, art).

You will gain 2 XP for each vote, with a max of 10 XP daily.

On weekends you will be able to log up to 20 XP daily.

XP is logged instantly, no more five vote minimum requirement.

All existing score data will be backed up but no longer used. Review scores will become the new existing score data.

Users can only vote once on each piece of content and can edit that vote whenever they want.

The score that shows in your review is the same score as your vote, there is just one location on the page to enter you score.

You can hide your score or submit a review without a score (many people are anti-scoring).

Combined voting and reviewing box, default appearance.

What you see after voting.

What you see when you click the review text field.

What you see after submitting your review.

Once you write a review, it always appears above the other reviews on the page, so you can see what you wrote and edit (or delete?) if desired.

Let me know your thoughts on this plan!

Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-18 03:35:09


I'm surprised so many people complain they can't vote on the same five submissions every day to deposit. The whole point of the system is to get people feedback and clear out the garbage. They're called experiencepoints, not repetition points. You want to level up? Then get out there an experience something different.

Speaking of garbage, I'd also like to get back to a portal where blamming actually happens. NG used to be the site that had standards. Now it seems just about anything can get through. But I'm not sure how to fix this.

More on topic, I support all the changes, except maybe the double weekend xp. I especially like Tom's idea of recalculating all your votes when you level up. That's a real incentive to deposit.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-18 04:23:37


At 1/12/15 09:27 AM, TomFulp wrote: Let me know your thoughts on this plan!

I trust your judgement, man.

You have always strived to do right by us, and if you think this will help the site then go for it.


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-18 06:03:54


Can I just say I'm gonna miss all the Picos?

I mean these guys been here for a very, very long time. I think they been here since 2001. I'd hate to remove them in favor of generic stars.

Voting System Overhaul Proposal


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Response to Voting System Overhaul Proposal 2015-01-18 10:18:09


Wow this sounds great. Can't wait to see it in action Tom.


Just do it,

Kill yourself

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