Help me settle this, guys.

[Gimmick]

So some chat users may know about my presentation of flash earlier this day, but either ways..
Basically. I gave a presentation on flash and talked about it. Later, my "friend" (idk him really much, but we're pretty good) says that he disagrees (not that I have anything against it) and says that Flash is pretty much on its way out, and something about HTML5. He also said one line I don't think I'll forget: "People don't make new projects in flash" or the like.

So, is what he's saying right? Is flash really on its way out? (I don't think the last part makes any sense at all, though)

[FlyingColours]

At 3/25/13 07:27 AM, Gimmick wrote: So, is what he's saying right? Is flash really on its way out? (I don't think the last part makes any sense at all, though)

Unfortunately, I think yes. HTML5 aims to reduce the reliance on third-party plug-ins like Flash, Silverlight, etc.

[Kirk-Cocaine]

While I don't think Flash will "die" any time soon, it will certainly start to become less ubiquitous. It will remain the primary technology used for premium video & audio, as it is a lot more secure than HTML5 video and is available across more browsers. It will also be the main technology used for web games. There's currently too much difference between browsers in terms of implementation and performance for Javascript to be a realistic alternative right now.

That said, Flash sites are long dead and any one using Flash for simple interactive content (image carousels, simple animation, etc) is a fool.

[GeoKureli]

HTML5 is becoming popular as a flash alternative because people want it to replace flash, that's why there's so many competitions coming out for javascript games.

The thing is Javascript is a horrible language, it's the exact thing I try to stay away from. I'm sure there's people who agree, and for that reason I think html5 wont kill flash directly. I do think html5 is the catalyst for change. either Microsoft will make a competing language, which they always do. I wouldn't be surprised is Adobe made a javascript compiler, they seems willing to adapt to new anti-flash trends. Point is, I don't see javascript and html 5 successfully killing Flash.

[FlyingColours]

At 3/25/13 10:32 AM, GeoKureli wrote: The thing is Javascript is a horrible language, it's the exact thing I try to stay away from. I'm sure there's people who agree, and for that reason I think html5 wont kill flash directly.

I agree, and I think a lot of people on NG agree, too. I prefer sticking to the strongly-typed, class-based ActionScript. However, the fact remains that Flash is becoming less and less popular.

I do think html5 is the catalyst for change. either Microsoft will make a competing language, which they always do.

JScript...

I wouldn't be surprised is Adobe made a javascript compiler, they seems willing to adapt to new anti-flash trends. Point is, I don't see javascript and html 5 successfully killing Flash.

They've already released a preview of Edge Code, an HTML/CSS/JS coder. They actually used JS to write the program... so they've probably made a JS compiler already.

[GeoKureli]

At 3/25/13 10:49 AM, FlyingColours wrote: I agree, and I think a lot of people on NG agree, too. I prefer sticking to the strongly-typed, class-based ActionScript.

Yeah, I think serious developers avoid loose typed languages and the accompanying headaches.

However, the fact remains that Flash is becoming less and less popular.

Flash will die eventually, its a given. actually I take that back, I think the swf file will die. but something will replace html5 before it happens.

JScript...

sweet, I love microsoft. I hate the fact that there has to be a Microsoft version of evertything, but I looked at some code samples, and once again they did it right.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms974588.aspx

datatypes and classes, sweet. I'll probably switch over to flash from this if it really runs on browsers without any special plugin. thanks for the info!

I wouldn't be surprised is Adobe made a javascript compiler, they seems willing to adapt to new anti-flash trends. Point is, I don't see javascript and html 5 successfully killing Flash.

They've already released a preview of Edge Code, an HTML/CSS/JS coder. They actually used JS to write the program... so they've probably made a JS compiler already.

I meant a setting in flash to compile to JS. I thought there was no such thing as a java compiler, it's just interpreted when you run it.

[MrRandomist]

At 3/25/13 10:49 AM, FlyingColours wrote:

They've already released a preview of Edge Code, an HTML/CSS/JS coder. They actually used JS to write the program... so they've probably made a JS compiler already.

I didnt realise edge made it a 'family' suite with code and animate now, a year ago it was only just an animation tool preview.
That's some advancements there, and it shows flash is losing its grip on the web and it continues to do so.

On this page of the forum @PrettyMuchBryce posted a jobs trend picture, showing that jobs for HTML5 (javascript) is trending upwards and flash continuing to sink, which will probably keep sinking until there's not much left.

Although I love flash and all it can do, unfortunately its not the future of web games, applications or videos (eventually).

and yes JS is a horrible horrible language, but does have a couple of perks!

[MrRandomist]

forgot link:
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/578434/2067#bbspost24542 080_post_text

[egg82]

I don't like the presence of HTML5 almost solely because i'm going, "oh, great. Yet ANOTHER language to learn. I'll just add it to my already-giant list."
I make a few actually valid points against HTML5, most of them have to do with security in some respect.

however, looking at things from an objective viewpoint:
HTML5 is going to be a language some people will learn and some people won't, much like HTML4. HTML5 has some good points (ever seen youtube without the Flash player installed?) but ultimately it's still HTML with some JS and CSS thrown in for spice.
Flash will still have its strong points, and will continue to be used because of its ease of use and cross-platform abilities. AIR helps greatly in this regard, as well as Alchemy (which will allow other languages to interact with Flash) - it will most certainly continue to diminish in its users, but it'll hit a cap at some point.
Unity seems like it's currently taking over the market. It'll either be a great success and absolutely destroy everything else, or completely flop. Time will tell.

[Kirk-Cocaine]

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote: I don't like the presence of HTML5 almost solely because i'm going, "oh, great. Yet ANOTHER language to learn. I'll just add it to my already-giant list."

If you know AS3, you should be able to pick up JS in less than week. HTML5 & CSS3 shouldn't take more than an afternoon.

And Unity is being used for console development (and by is used by the US Army), it's not gonna flop any time soon!

[MrRandomist]

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote:

Unity seems like it's currently taking over the market. It'll either be a great success and absolutely destroy everything else, or completely flop. Time will tell.

same as kirk said, and unity is a great tool!

there's quite a lot going for unity, and I only see it getting stronger.
It seems to be the go to program at our uni as well, as it has some really good on the fly (in-game) property/option tweaking which is super useful!

[Fooliolo]

I originally went into AS3 because of its ease of access and use. However, as someone interested in serious programming, AS3 is probably only going to be a stepping stone to greener pastures. But I don't regret taking some time to learn AS3 since it's still taking learning in manageable steps

[GeoKureli]

At 3/25/13 03:30 PM, Fooliolo wrote: However, as someone interested in serious programming, AS3 is probably only going to be a stepping stone to greener pastures.

After doing projects in C++, C#, and flash. Flash is way more accessible than all of those; there's no installer for your game, there's no security issues, over 95% of computers have flash enabled. The only thing more accessible is JS. It's not about moving to the highest level language, its about getting the most people to use it.

[Fooliolo]

At 3/25/13 09:58 PM, GeoKureli wrote: After doing projects in C++, C#, and flash. Flash is way more accessible than all of those; there's no installer for your game, there's no security issues, over 95% of computers have flash enabled. The only thing more accessible is JS. It's not about moving to the highest level language, its about getting the most people to use it.

What makes you think I'm trying to make the most accessible software? And what about speed, which Flash is notoriously bad at? And I'm actually trying to get into a medium level language, not a higher level one.

Not sure if you misinterpreted my first statement....

[milchreis]

At 3/26/13 05:13 AM, Fooliolo wrote: And I'm actually trying to get into a medium level language, not a higher level one.

What the heck is a "medium level" language?

[Fooliolo]

At 3/26/13 05:17 AM, milchreis wrote: What the heck is a "medium level" language?

Not quite machine code, but not quite as abstract as most languages taught in beginning programming classes.

[milchreis]

Interesting, people consider C "low" or "mid" level now
How times have changed...

[GeoKureli]

At 3/26/13 05:13 AM, Fooliolo wrote: What makes you think I'm trying to make the most accessible software? And what about speed, which Flash is notoriously bad at? And I'm actually trying to get into a medium level language, not a higher level one.

That's fine if that's your priorities, every developer cares about speed, accessibility is really important to me, and it seems like the a main factor in the Flash/JS controversy. since people are disabling flash because of malicious ad banners

[Diki]

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote: I don't like the presence of HTML5 almost solely because i'm going, "oh, great. Yet ANOTHER language to learn. I'll just add it to my already-giant list."

HTML5 is really just JavaScript, which has been around longer than ActionScript has been.
And, really, if you're opposed to constantly learning new things, and new languages, then programming isn't what you should be getting into. Even some of the greatest computer scientists that ever lived, such as Dennis Ritchie or John McCarthy, were still learning things even up until the day they died.

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote: I make a few actually valid points against HTML5, most of them have to do with security in some respect.

Such as?

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote: Flash will still have its strong points, and will continue to be used because of its ease of use and cross-platform abilities.

This is actually one of the reasons I think Flash is starting to go the way of the dodo. Flash Player has very weak support, if any at all, for mobile devices, and isn't as easy to get up and running as HTML5 (which doesn't require you to actually do anything other than install a modern browser). HTML5 really has Flash beat in the regard of ease of use and cross-platform support.

At 3/25/13 01:42 PM, egg82 wrote: AIR helps greatly in this regard, as well as Alchemy (which will allow other languages to interact with Flash)

Alchemy (now known as FlasCC) doesn't really allow "other languages" to be used with Flash; it just compiles C/C++ code into the Flash runtime environment.
That said FlasCC is actually pretty damn cool and, when in the hands of the right people, it can make some amazing things.