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American Guns - Cancelled

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Rational-Delirium
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:13:54 Reply

At 12/18/12 09:56 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/18/12 09:54 PM, Rational-Delirium wrote: YES I KNOW, What do guns and shooting have to do with each other at all? There's no relation!!!!
About as much as there is between hijackers and airplanes.

Some of the worst mass murders ever have happened in or because of airplanes. What is the solution?

Obviously to not let people carry airplanes in their households unless they have a permit. What else could we do?


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DarkShadowblade
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:14:34 Reply

I think this is actualyl a good move.

I feel, part of the reason of the Shooting WAS due to how the sensationalist media portrays guns and killers. It's the whole thought process of "If I do something so bad, I'll never be forgotten and will get 24hr news coverage" Banning his show which portrays guns in such a positive manner limits what those with that mentality feel about guns.

People have to remember, guns are made not for fun @ target practice, but to Stop and kill.


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BumFodder
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:18:13 Reply

Maybe America is becoming more left wing in line with Europe finally.

I feel sorry for all those responsible gun owners though because I know they take gun safety really really seriously. Theres too many sensible gun enthusiasts to take away guns completely but I think it should be a lot harder to get a gun than it currently is.

RacistBassist
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:20:49 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:18 PM, BumFodder wrote: I feel sorry for all those responsible gun owners though because I know they take gun safety really really seriously. Theres too many sensible gun enthusiasts to take away guns completely but I think it should be a lot harder to get a gun than it currently is.

And tell me, what exactly, would making a gun harder to get do? Adding the background checks to private sales I understand, but increasing the waiting list? That just changes the date if someone uses it for nefarious purposes? Banning "assault" rifles? That's just a knee jerk emotional reaction not grounded in reality. Ban semi-automatics? Cool, no when people go on sprees they'll use actually high powered rifles and be forced to actually aim better, which will increase damage done.


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BumFodder
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:21:26 Reply

At 12/18/12 07:19 PM, Gagsy wrote: You should watch Life On Mars, the original UK one.

Oh shit watch all 3 seasons of life on mars and the 2 ashes to ashes seasons theyre some of the best fucking shit ive ever seen the only american thing that comes close is some of the seasons of lost.

And I actually love US television. But you have to admit there is still way too much crap and American Guns? Thats just terrible.

Yeah now that I think about it guns dont come up much on british tv except for crime dramas and similar things.

LemonCrush
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:24:01 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:13 PM, Rational-Delirium wrote: Obviously to not let people carry airplanes in their households unless they have a permit. What else could we do?

So do you have a real answer?

Airplanes are far more dangerous and abundant than a gun. Aluminum can with 500,000 lbs of explosives, ~600 people, and throw it at a building at nearly the speed of sound. What's worse is, these things are flying around all day every day, in massive numbers! Most guns stay in safes, and aren't constantly flying over your head 24 hours a day.

What should we do?

TruBluFoxx
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:26:54 Reply

At 12/18/12 05:08 PM, Fim wrote: It's a little bit of reactionary PR but I reckon it's all in the right direction, Americans need to get over their unhealthy and destructive relationship with guns. Hopefully there'll be a shift in the public attitude towards making them illegal, although it's sad that a load of innocent children need to die before people come to that realisation.

You think banning guns will prevent violent criminals from getting their hands on firearms? Ha! Most inner city gun crime happens with illegally owned and purchased firearms. Unhealthy relationship? I find more ignorant assholes who blame our problems on guns than people educated in owning and operating a firearm. How do you expect to fight violent crime? With a hug? Police respond in 10 minutes IF YOU ARE LUCKY. There are also laws, rules, and regulations surrounding purchasing, owning, and operating firearms. The person responsible for the shooting illegally obtained them by killing his own mother.

Also, do you think just because a tool is made unaccessible that others will not take its place? Fuck no. Bombs are far more deadly than guns, and ied's are all too easy to make; furthermore, I would like to point out that you probably have the ingredients to make both mustard gas and a low grade napalm sitting in your house. I would like to point you to The Oklahoma City bombing that claimed the lives of 168 and injured over 680 people. Stopping the sale of guns will not stop crime, and it certainly means that everyday citizens would have less to protect themselves with.

Its sad that people meet a problems with ignorance and dissociation. Its not the tool that is the problem, its the people.


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Rational-Delirium
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:32:27 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:24 PM, LemonCrush wrote: So do you have a real answer?

Airplanes are far more dangerous and abundant than a gun. Aluminum can with 500,000 lbs of explosives, ~600 people, and throw it at a building at nearly the speed of sound. What's worse is, these things are flying around all day every day, in massive numbers! Most guns stay in safes, and aren't constantly flying over your head 24 hours a day.

What should we do?

It's just a good thing only a few people can fly airplanes, because if everyone could, then a lot more people would die.


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LemonCrush
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:36:44 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:32 PM, Rational-Delirium wrote: It's just a good thing only a few people can fly airplanes, because if everyone could, then a lot more people would die.

A few people can fly airplanes? In what sense?

Even IF that were true, they can be easily high jacked, or worse, a pilot could snap and just fly the damn thing into the ground.

Just as much, or possibly more danger/murder potential there.

FWIW, hijackers and bombers have no intention of flying the plane.

LemonCrush
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:38:54 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:32 PM, Rational-Delirium wrote: It's just a good thing only a few people can fly airplanes, because if everyone could, then a lot more people would die.

So you're saying, it's a pilot's proper training that keep them from being dangerous, right?

Much like a gun, I suppose. Also like a gun, they can easily hurt someone when the wrong person gets one.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:41:52 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:20 PM, RacistBassist wrote: And tell me, what exactly, would making a gun harder to get do? Adding the background checks to private sales I understand, but increasing the waiting list? That just changes the date if someone uses it for nefarious purposes? Banning "assault" rifles? That's just a knee jerk emotional reaction not grounded in reality. Ban semi-automatics? Cool, no when people go on sprees they'll use actually high powered rifles and be forced to actually aim better, which will increase damage done.

Well first of all I think you should calm down a bit more about this because I know a lot of Americans are very responsible with their guns and its pretty much a hobby and interest and im not interested in stopping them getting guns, its just that there definitely needs to be some better way of measuring how resposible someone would be.

Im not just jumping on the bandwagon because of some isolated incident, its just that ive always agreed that guns do cause a lot of unnecessary deaths, and in a way that contributes to there being more deaths instead of just a replacement for another weapon such as a knife because its easier to kill people with a gun if you get what I mean. Im not going to propose anything because im not a sociologist, criminologist or politician but you have to agree its better to keep guns out of idiots hands and into peoples who know what they are doing.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:47:21 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:41 PM, BumFodder wrote: Well first of all I think you should calm down a bit more about this because I know a lot of Americans are very responsible with their guns and its pretty much a hobby and interest and im not interested in stopping them getting guns, its just that there definitely needs to be some better way of measuring how resposible someone would be.

The problem is, no one has a solution.

Banning assault weapons does nothing but create a black market (therefore endangering people), cause people to lose their jobs, and keep people form defending themselves.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:56:25 Reply

guns don't kill people, people kill people

guns happen to make this task a hell of a lot easier, but let's ignore that because they're inanimate objects

BumFodder
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:56:46 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:47 PM, LemonCrush wrote: The problem is, no one has a solution.

Banning assault weapons does nothing but create a black market (therefore endangering people), cause people to lose their jobs, and keep people form defending themselves.

Yeah but doing nothing isnt going to improve anything either. I wasnt on about banning anything anyway, making it harder to get weapons is hardly going to create a black market by itself as long as it isnt too harsh. Little by little would be a better course of action here.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:58:22 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:41 PM, BumFodder wrote: Well first of all I think you should calm down a bit more about this because I know a lot of Americans are very responsible with their guns and its pretty much a hobby and interest and im not interested in stopping them getting guns, its just that there definitely needs to be some better way of measuring how resposible someone would be.

No, I will not calm down about this when my rights and my families capabilities of defending themselves are put on the line. I really doubt my frail grandmother would have any chance were she forced into a situation where she would need to fight for her life. And these situations do occur, quite frequently.

Im not just jumping on the bandwagon because of some isolated incident, its just that ive always agreed that guns do cause a lot of unnecessary deaths, and in a way that contributes to there being more deaths instead of just a replacement for another weapon such as a knife because its easier to kill people with a gun if you get what I mean. Im not going to propose anything because im not a sociologist, criminologist or politician but you have to agree its better to keep guns out of idiots hands and into peoples who know what they are doing.

This is the number one problem. We have a bunch of people who do not know a single thing about guns besides that some look kind of scary compared to others demanding that those that look scary be banned, and they spout off ridiculous things such as "Nobody needs an automatic military assault rifle" in response to that asshole using a semi-auto rifle. People are calling for a ban on all semi-automatic weapons after this incident. Some even want literally all guns gone. Erasing guns solve no problems except reducing gun violence, while causing bludgeoning and stabbing murders to go up. I don't get what makes getting stabbed a morally superior form of violence compared to getting shot. At least with guns most people would have a fighting chance if somebody decides to break in for a nefarious purpose. The elderly get properly fucked if they are not allowed firearms, same with most women. As I have went over before in another thread, I have been pepper sprayed, I have been tazed/stun gunned, all that shit does is hurt horribly but you can keep on going if you try. I have seen people get hit in the head with bats and be able to recover relatively quickly. I have seen people pull knives on others and that person is the one who ends up hospitalized. I do not feel comfortable putting those who are weak completely at the mercy of the bigger fish in this world, especially given police response times.


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LemonCrush
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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 22:58:53 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:53 PM, Xenomit wrote: Eat shit and fuck off.

Winner.

I <3 you.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:09:26 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:58 PM, RacistBassist wrote: No, I will not calm down about this when my rights and my families capabilities of defending themselves are put on the line. I really doubt my frail grandmother would have any chance were she forced into a situation where she would need to fight for her life. And these situations do occur, quite frequently.

Thats a pretty sensationalist and interesting take on things. I know the USA has a higher crime rate but its hardly anything absurd. I know people take self-protection more seriously over there and thats fine, but I dont really like "what if x was under attack and needed a gun" kind of arguments because theyre completely hypothetical with lots of variables and you can keep asking different ones variants over and over and it doesnt get anyone anywhere.

This is the number one problem. We have a bunch of people who do not know a single thing about guns besides that some look kind of scary compared to others demanding that those that look scary be banned, and they spout off ridiculous things such as "Nobody needs an automatic military assault rifle" in response to that asshole using a semi-auto rifle.

I dont know why you are bringing those kind of people up because theyve got nothing to do with what I said. In fact using a semi-auto is more deadly because aimed shots would be more deadly than random spray. But still full auto is more likely to cause accidents but I dont know if there are any figures that compare those two anywhere anyway.

stuff

Im not going on about banning them why are you mentioning that constantly.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:13:15 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:58 PM, RacistBassist wrote:

Erasing guns solve no problems except reducing gun violence, while causing bludgeoning and stabbing murders to go up. I don't get what makes getting stabbed a morally superior form of violence compared to getting shot. At least with guns most people would have a fighting chance if somebody decides to break in for a nefarious purpose. The elderly get properly fucked if they are not allowed firearms, same with most women.

How do you think crimes actually happen in reality? Do you think someone who is planning on actually murdering or robbing someone loudly announces that they are approaching with a weapon, giving our heroic elderly person a chance to withdraw and aim his gun? And adding a second deadly weapon into the scenario makes the situation better?

and yeah crimes with weapons that aren't guns are totally on the same level

0 deaths
27 deaths

THANK YOU GUNS

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:17:17 Reply

At 12/18/12 10:36 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/18/12 10:32 PM, Rational-Delirium wrote: It's just a good thing only a few people can fly airplanes, because if everyone could, then a lot more people would die.
A few people can fly airplanes? In what sense?

Compared to the population of America, it's a very small population. Guns on the other hand, can be owned by most.

Even IF that were true, they can be easily high jacked, or worse, a pilot could snap and just fly the damn thing into the ground.

Just as much, or possibly more danger/murder potential there.

There's a lot more danger with airplanes (on their own), but the control put on who can fly one makes it the safest forms of transportation. Guns are a lot less dangerous than airplanes, but result in over 100 time more american deaths than airplanes.

SOURCE
SOURCE


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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:20:15 Reply

I do not understaad how a show about guns has anything to do with some random shooting.


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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:21:52 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:20 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote: I do not understaad how a show about guns has anything to do with some random shooting.

Moral guardians probably think that a tv show about guns make people go on random shooting sprees somehow.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:22:15 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:19 PM, Xenomit wrote:
What don't you people get about that. If you have criminals getting them illegally while they're legal, then you're gonna have criminals getting them illegally while they're illegal.

But it's pointless to try to get you to understand the importance of guns in America.

this doesn't make them a good thing

it makes them a bad thing you can't get rid of

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:28:00 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:24 PM, Xenomit wrote:
At 12/18/12 11:22 PM, JaY11 wrote: it makes them a bad thing
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I love guns, and I look at things from a positive perspective. They don't kill people, they level the playing field.

uhh, yeah, but having a 'playing field' to have to level out in the first place certainly doesn't sound like a positive thing to me

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:30:59 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:13 PM, JaY11 wrote: How do you think crimes actually happen in reality? Do you think someone who is planning on actually murdering or robbing someone loudly announces that they are approaching with a weapon, giving our heroic elderly person a chance to withdraw and aim his gun? And adding a second deadly weapon into the scenario makes the situation better?

Yet here we are, with justifiable homicide still existing through self defense, with the majority involving firearms. Not to mention the actual deterrent of the person merely brandishing the weapon. Or just injuring the person. It exists. People just don't give a fuck about the story where guy breaks in, gets shot, goes to jail. The end. Now, if it was guy breaks in, kills homeowner, gets away/caught, you can be guaranteed that shit is all over the local news.

and yeah crimes with weapons that aren't guns are totally on the same level

0 deaths
27 deaths

Shit, what was the deadliest school killing in the US again?

One of my "favorites" (God I hate putting it like this) was the one where the guy decided to just take a DIY flamethrower and killed a dozen or so people before he decided to leg it and was eventually apprehended.

THANK YOU GUNS

RIght, because deaths magically disappear when guns go away. Yes, massacres are harder to have occur, except oddly, it seems to be only a rather recent phenomenon to have be common place, after virtually anyone could just go and buy one of those super scary fully automatic weapons.

At 12/18/12 11:14 PM, Xenomit wrote: I'm getting this for myself come christmas day

I'm thinking about getting a CMMG AR-15, some shitty AK knockoff, and a .22 in the next few months.

At 12/18/12 11:09 PM, BumFodder wrote: Thats a pretty sensationalist and interesting take on things. I know the USA has a higher crime rate but its hardly anything absurd. I know people take self-protection more seriously over there and thats fine, but I dont really like "what if x was under attack and needed a gun" kind of arguments because theyre completely hypothetical with lots of variables and you can keep asking different ones variants over and over and it doesnt get anyone anywhere.

No, it is not a little bit sensationalist. That's why crime still occurs in these places where guns are taken away. These situations are not hypothetical, they happen daily. They just don't get reported because death sells. Did you hear about the attempted movie this week that was stopped (And yes, he was just shooting people at random) by an off duty officer who gunned the fucker down? Probably not, because when these crimes are stopped, nobody is there to load up body bags. The reason people are able to say "When has a massacre ever been stopped by somebody with a gun?" is because they are stopped before they become massacres. Look at violent crime rates of any country, anywhere. Gun control. No gun control. Look at places crime rates before and after the ban.

I dont know why you are bringing those kind of people up because theyve got nothing to do with what I said. In fact using a semi-auto is more deadly because aimed shots would be more deadly than random spray. But still full auto is more likely to cause accidents but I dont know if there are any figures that compare those two anywhere anyway.

I am bringing this up in response to your not being a sociologist comment. It is the people who are using their gut reaction and their preconceived misconceptions to try to justify the outlawing of firearms.

Im not going on about banning them why are you mentioning that constantly.

Because this is one of those topics where it is a very slippery slope. Except for background checks at 100% of all purchases, and the extremely uncostly mental health screenings, there is simply no real solution to the problem that does not being the teetering on the edge of this slope.


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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:34:37 Reply

At 12/18/12 05:03 PM, Ilssm wrote:
What do you guys think?

i hope people would shut up about the shooting and move on with their lives, instead of trying to convince others that according to source S (that does not even have any statistical significane), X should be Y'ed because of Z, or A would not have happened if B.


Yeah, I make no sense.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:42:11 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:36 PM, Xenomit wrote: There will always be a playing field in America, and guns level said playing field.

I'm telling you, you foreigners think you know something about America, but you don't.

I'm not denying any part of this. I'm saying it's not a good thing.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:43:32 Reply

Great, the media blew the this all kinds of out of proportion about guns, and now a huge backlash will occur on the Gun industry, not that it won't bounce back in a few months but it's a shame those guys are losing jobs over this shit. *sigh* Funny, we live directly above a country with enough illegal firearms to fight a small war yet people think guns will just "vanish" by making them illegal. At least it will clean up small gangs from forming, clearing out the small fries as competition for the larger real gangs and cartels, I can only speculate what harsh gun regulations might do to the larger cartels, but I can imagine it would benefit them more than hurt, not that I'm an expert, so I won't try to make much of a stance. Just a shame people had to lose their jobs over this, that's all.


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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:44:55 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:43 PM, HollowedPumkinz wrote: Great, the media blew the this all kinds of out of proportion about guns, and now a huge backlash will occur on the Gun industry, not that it won't bounce back in a few months but it's a shame those guys are losing jobs over this shit.

Nah, I think this is just going to be a huge boost to their sales. I was in my local store the other day and that place was fucking packed, with many of their weapons out of stock. I mean shit, they used to have a rotating display dedicated to AK variants and they were all gone.


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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-18 23:45:37 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:30 PM, RacistBassist wrote: That's why crime still occurs in these places where guns are taken away

Whats taking away guns got to do with what I said?

These situations are not hypothetical, they happen daily. They just don't get reported because death sells.

I dont think you get what I meant. I meant the kind of thing people do where they change a hypothetical situation over and over everytime you answer it until they can catch you out but youre not doing that so it doesnt matter. Also im not denying they happen everyday.

Did you hear about the attempted movie this week that was stopped (And yes, he was just shooting people at random) by an off duty officer who gunned the fucker down? Probably not, because when these crimes are stopped, nobody is there to load up body bags.

Well of course I wont have heard of it because I dont live in america so they dont report every little thing about it 24/7. Im not denying there are good uses of guns as well as bad, which is why Im not saying they should be banned. Its just that there should be something else done to try to edge into the 'legal owners who do use weapons illegally' category a bit more.

The reason people are able to say "When has a massacre ever been stopped by somebody with a gun?" is because they are stopped before they become massacres. Look at violent crime rates of any country, anywhere. Gun control. No gun control. Look at places crime rates before and after the ban.

Like where for example?

I am bringing this up in response to your not being a sociologist comment. It is the people who are using their gut reaction and their preconceived misconceptions to try to justify the outlawing of firearms.

What have those people got to do with me?

Because this is one of those topics where it is a very slippery slope. Except for background checks at 100% of all purchases, and the extremely uncostly mental health screenings, there is simply no real solution to the problem that does not being the teetering on the edge of this slope.

Slippery slope of rights vs crime? I know there is no simple solution and I did type that, but thats hardly a reason to stop looking for a solution. If it were that easy to find solutions then society would be near-perfect by now.

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Response to American Guns - Cancelled 2012-12-19 00:36:10 Reply

At 12/18/12 11:45 PM, BumFodder wrote: Whats taking away guns got to do with what I said?

Sorry you're getting a lot of flak from me lol. I do not mean to direct everything directly towards you

Well of course I wont have heard of it because I dont live in america so they dont report every little thing about it 24/7. Im not denying there are good uses of guns as well as bad, which is why Im not saying they should be banned. Its just that there should be something else done to try to edge into the 'legal owners who do use weapons illegally' category a bit more.

Woah, I always thought you were an American. Odd.

Like where for example?

California. Illinois. The states with a "shall issue" approach to CPLs. The correlation between crime rates dropping, and gun sales/CPL rates rising.

What have those people got to do with me?

It wasn't meant personally for you lol. I was referring to the people such as the Brady Campaign.

Slippery slope of rights vs crime? I know there is no simple solution and I did type that, but thats hardly a reason to stop looking for a solution. If it were that easy to find solutions then society would be near-perfect by now.

This is the problem I have. Everybody is, as others have put it, attacking the symptom and not the actual problem. Sure, it is extremely easy for them to blame guns, but that, when all is said and done, does not do a damn thing to help solve things such as our mental health problem which I would say is a much bigger concern then people who are hellbent on causing harm using something that's intrinsically neutral.


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