The Genre Wars

[WizMystery]

This isn't about music production in particular, but I'm posting this here since I hope it will allow people to have more insight into music they don't normally associate with. Call this a "philosophy of music" thread, if you will.

Besides, this whole forum is becoming a broken record of ad threads, simple technical questions, and tried topical discussions, so I thought this might spice it up a bit since it's a topic many people feel strongly about.

My grandiose opening statement! Dramatic!

Everybody has that one genre they can't stand. Some people can hate a genre so much that they will actually take to YouTube and post a comment about it. They'll profess that the music they listen to is the greatest and anything outside of their bubble is just nonsense for the masses.

But the problem may not be the music, it may be the person. I'm sure you've heard the "all [insert genre here] sounds the same" comment that people tend to pull out of their asses from time to time. Chances are, however, it doesn't. The person that says this just refuses to listen to the nuances that set songs apart. Or they might just be dishonest about it, finding whatever excuse they can to justify their rage. In other cases, it just "sounds like noise." This is yet another bullshit critique because no music is just noise. None. Even noise music is more than noise. The fact is, if this complaint is said in all honesty, there's a pattern that the so-called 'critic' just isn't getting. There are many other invalid complaints to be made, and to list them all would be impossible.

These people aren't necessarily stupid (although the more vocal ones just might be). They're just willfully ignorant, as most people tend to be of something. Even artists can be this way, which is why this thread exists.

Even if you're not opposed to an entire genre, you're opposed to at least one artist out there that has some undesirable philosophy about their work. This thread is to confront this dissonance, as that artist's work may not be what you think it is. In opening ears to other perspectives, I hope that anyone who participates in this discussion will have a greater understanding of what music can be.
|-----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------|
I guess I'll be the first to make some blasphemous statements, then.

I can't stand pop. It just sucks. It's dishonest music made by dishonest people. It ought to be a cliche by now that so many people say this and then turn around and buy that new Carly-Rae-Jepson single, since I see that sort of thing happening all the time. What the fuck is this Psy bandwagon bullshit? Is it just because he's Korean or something? I have to deal with people I know personally that profess that he's the most awesome thing ever and it almost forces me to hop on. But I just can't. I can play along for a bit but there's just nothing about it that I find interesting at all. Not just the music, but the whole scene. Why the fuck are people so enamored over this guy? People who aren't so uptight about this say "oh relax, just enjoy a stupid pop song every once in a while." Why? Why be proud of some urge you have to listen to shit like this "every once in a while (as if it's random)?" You can appeal to the lowest common denominator AND do something thoughtful at the same time. Only doing the former makes you a lazy piece of shit.

Gangsta Rap or any type of rap where the dipshit making the music has some form of Narcissistic Personality Disorder where they have to say their name in the song. Fuck you, you're not "the shit." I don't need a watermark tainting the music I listen to. The worst part is some people actually start to believe they are "the shit" just because the guy said so. It's fucking annoying.

I should also have mentioned you're encouraged to be as offensive as possible.

Now for my defenses.

Dubstep, Electro House, French House, or whatever genre where you throw in a shitload of sounds - the idea of this isn't just to throw whatever-the-fuck together and call it a song, it's to find a string of sounds that go well together in a linear fashion. The idea is to move beyond just melody and let the timbre make the song catchy and enjoyable instead. And while some of this can be "just stupid dance music," even though just the idea itself makes the music creative enough, some artists that do this can be pretty deep about it. Seven Lions is the best example of this.

[Sequenced]

being angry doesn't solve anything.

[WizMystery]

At 12/11/12 10:06 PM, Sequenced wrote: being angry doesn't solve anything.

That's not what this is about.

[The-iMortal]

If you don't like, don't listen.

And I thought Gangnam style was quite good, as well as a humorous video. I even remixed the track. Sue me :P

[Sequenced]

At 12/11/12 10:20 PM, The-iMortal wrote: If you don't like, don't listen.

And I thought Gangnam style was quite good, as well as a humorous video. I even remixed the track. Sue me :P

the song was just like any old pop song - very similar to one of lmfao's tracks.

I only like Psy because of the video. It's fucking hilarious.

[DivoFST]

At 12/11/12 10:26 PM, Sequenced wrote:

I only like Psy because of the video. It's fucking hilarious.

And im sure you apreciate him taking Justin Bieber of his number 1 seat in youtube as well :D

[WizMystery]

At 12/11/12 10:20 PM, The-iMortal wrote: If you don't like, don't listen.

No. That's a bad attitude to have. A really, really bad attitude to have. In analogous terms, ignoring something someone's trying to say to you because you don't like it is rude. Likewise, ignoring what the artist is trying to say about music in his work is that on a larger scale because the statements tend to be more profound.

If I wasn't clear in the OP (and reading it over, I think the message is rather obvious since I mention it three or four times), I'm trying to like music that I hate. Not just remain proud of the fact that I hate it. And I'm encouraging other people to do the same.

And I thought Gangnam style was quite good, as well as a humorous video. I even remixed the track. Sue me :P

It's sort of meh humor. I think the whole thing is just to be as random as possible, keeping up the "what the fuck, [Asia]" image, but it doesn't go far enough. Meanwhile, YTP (not the stupid censoring nonsense, I mean the ones that throw shit at you really fast) remains a shunned subculture of the internet. Go figure.

[ZipZipper]

...I don't understand the topic. You want us to express how upset we are about one genre that we hate and then try to justify a different genre that we love?

[gavkay21]

I literately listen to everything ...

Like:
ambient
alt-rock
heavy metal
dubstep
drumstep
electro
house
french house
shoe gaze
gabber
hard edge
hardstyle

I will admit i focus on electronic mostly but variety is the spice of life!

[WizMystery]

At 12/11/12 10:45 PM, ZipZipper wrote: ...I don't understand the topic. You want us to express how upset we are about one genre that we hate and then try to justify a different genre that we love?

The idea is that you post something you hate about a certain type of music and someone who listens to that music will eventually come along and explain why they like it, hopefully giving you a better understanding of it and swaying your feelings in the opposite direction. I just wrote a defense because nobody posted yet.

[The-iMortal]

At 12/11/12 10:52 PM, WizMystery wrote: The idea is that you post something you hate about a certain type of music and someone who listens to that music will eventually come along and explain why they like it, hopefully giving you a better understanding of it and swaying your feelings in the opposite direction.

Okay. Here goes:

I hate death metal. Why? Because it's just heavy riffs with inaudible growls which, according to lyric websites, are saying extremely disturbing words.

[Sequenced]

At 12/11/12 10:30 PM, DivoFST wrote:

At 12/11/12 10:26 PM, Sequenced wrote:

I only like Psy because of the video. It's fucking hilarious.

And im sure you apreciate him taking Justin Bieber of his number 1 seat in youtube as well :D

yes yes yes yes VERY yes YES ~! YESY YEYETS"HTRHS:RTH:BPRBPLRBRLP

FARTING SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS EVERYWHERE

[ZipZipper]

Oh...well...

I think at the end of the day I hate all genres equally, or at least I find what is detestable within each one. Even if that idea is disregarded, my musical tastes are horribly slim so...I pretty much still dislike most genres. It is most certainly foul. Practically everyone can explain to me what is great about the genres they like :(

[WizMystery]

At 12/11/12 09:40 PM, WizMystery wrote: Gangsta Rap or any type of rap where the dipshit making the music has some form of Narcissistic Personality Disorder where they have to say their name in the song. Fuck you, you're not "the shit." I don't need a watermark tainting the music I listen to. The worst part is some people actually start to believe they are "the shit" just because the guy said so. It's fucking annoying.

Funny enough, I just happened to come across a song that does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlPs3jyuNt0

I actually liked the song despite it, since the way it was done wasn't all that offensive.

At 12/11/12 11:28 PM, ZipZipper wrote: Oh...well...

I think at the end of the day I hate all genres equally, or at least I find what is detestable within each one. Even if that idea is disregarded, my musical tastes are horribly slim so...I pretty much still dislike most genres. It is most certainly foul. Practically everyone can explain to me what is great about the genres they like :(

Be a little more provocative.

At 12/11/12 10:56 PM, The-iMortal wrote: I hate death metal. Why? Because it's just heavy riffs with inaudible growls which, according to lyric websites, are saying extremely disturbing words.

I can't speak for most of the genre since I only listen to a few growling bands, but it's supposed to recreate agression. When they talk about raping women or killing women or... or... lowering the glass ceiling for women they don't actually think women should be raped, killed, or go unemployed.

In other cases the lyrics can be philosophical. Meshuggah's Catch 33 has little disturbing content in the sense of describing violent acts, and instead uses the idea of death to pose interesting questions or statements. Their whole thing is creating a contrast between agression and this sort of whimsical... er... creepiness, I'd say? They cut from the most aggressive sound you can possibly think of to clean atonal arpeggiations and that creates a jarring effect that puts you in a really different state of mind.

[The-iMortal]

At 12/11/12 11:52 PM, WizMystery wrote: I can't speak for most of the genre since I only listen to a few growling bands, but it's supposed to recreate agression.

Here's the thing. Even after all you've explained to me about the genre, I still hate it. I hate the sound. Hell, like you said, it's supposed to recreate agression. I don't like listening to angry music.

I like listening to a lot of pop tracks. You hate listening to a lot of pop tracks. It's all subjective.

[ZipZipper]

At 12/11/12 11:52 PM, WizMystery wrote: Be a little more provocative.

Sorry...

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate all genres. I also find their merits as well. Those who are good at what they do are good at what they do. Just...I don't accept all genres at a personal level.

At 12/12/12 12:13 AM, The-iMortal wrote: Here's the thing. Even after all you've explained to me about the genre, I still hate it. I hate the sound. Hell, like you said, it's supposed to recreate agression. I don't like listening to angry music.

I like listening to a lot of pop tracks. You hate listening to a lot of pop tracks. It's all subjective.

Oh my, I agree. I find it unsettling to hear people yell even in normal situations.

[WizMystery]

At 12/12/12 12:13 AM, The-iMortal wrote: Here's the thing. Even after all you've explained to me about the genre, I still hate it. I hate the sound. Hell, like you said, it's supposed to recreate agression. I don't like listening to angry music.

I like listening to a lot of pop tracks. You hate listening to a lot of pop tracks. It's all subjective.

I should make the distinction, then, between judging a song to be objectively awful and just not enjoying listening to it. "Subjective" only addresses the experiential half of music, IE the emotion you feel while listening to it. It doesn't mean that this is a free-for-all of value and anything goes - if you believe that, either you're making an excuse to be lazy or you misunderstand what it is you're even saying.

The listening experience is not all there is to music. All music, whether the artist knows it or not, is making a self-referencing claim that is scientific in nature. That claim can be evaluated. Whether it's a message in the lyrics or just a new way of doing things (like a new compositional technique), the artist is telling you something. Should you choose to go above and beyond, your job is to listen to what that artist is saying and accept it as their perspective on music. Not only does this enhance the listening experience, it makes you better in tune with other people in general. Under this pretense, all claims are to be evaluated as truthful since they have no tangible ends other than just the listening experience, which is subjective like you describe.

If that explanation was a bit abstract: I often come across songs that I don't particularly enjoy listening to but can see why other people might like it. Other times, I actually smite people for enjoying another type of music. The latter is a habit I want to stop doing, but believe I am justified in doing for the time being since I think the music is objectively bad. Despite this, I believe it is better to hate than not to have an opinion at all, since you're showing intellectual curiosity about the subject at hand. Simply being ambivalent and calling music "subjective" is bad if you're not considering the objective half of the music you don't listen to.

If you hate death metal in the sense that you think it's worthless and nobody should listen to it, then this thread is for you. If you see why other people might like it, then this thread isn't for you.

[The-iMortal]

At 12/12/12 12:36 AM, WizMystery wrote: If you hate death metal in the sense that you think it's worthless and nobody should listen to it, then this thread is for you. If you see why other people might like it, then this thread isn't for you.

Well, you definitely have a point. And I have caught myself saying in the past, "objectively, this track is good, and I can see how people could like it, but I don't particularly like it," as well as saying, "this track is not really too good from an objective point of view, but I seem to really like listening to it."

However, I rarely ever hate a whole genre. It usually applies to certain tracks. Though, death metal is the only genre I can honestly say I think is just noise, and cannot for the life of me understand how anybody enjoys that shit. But some people like it. I don't know how, but they do. So I guess this thread is for me then.

But now what? You try to convince me that death metal has certain traits? Everybody knows that different songs bring out different emotions and whatnot. I just don't see much use in this exercise...

Excuse me if I sound pretentious. Perhaps I'm taking this whole thing wayyy too seriously, and it's just supposed to be a bit of fun?

[WizMystery]

At 12/12/12 12:49 AM, The-iMortal wrote: However, I rarely ever hate a whole genre. It usually applies to certain tracks. Though, death metal is the only genre I can honestly say I think is just noise, and cannot for the life of me understand how anybody enjoys that shit. But some people like it. I don't know how, but they do. So I guess this thread is for me then.

I'm using genre rather lightly. I thought the title I came up with had a better ring to it than "The certain aspects about music that I don't like war."

Also, with the increasing obscurity and precision of sub-genre classifications nowadays, you can argue that a single compositional technique is a genre. French house essentially is that one cut-up vocal technique.

But now what? You try to convince me that death metal has certain traits? Everybody knows that different songs bring out different emotions and whatnot. I just don't see much use in this exercise...

It's impossible that you know every little aspect about every type of music that sets it apart from every other type of music that makes it genius. Maybe the reason you don't like death metal is because you don't know that one thing that would make it enjoyable to you.

Hell, I fucking hated electronic music for the longest time. Now look at me. It's all I listen to. I just needed to know why it was so good.

Excuse me if I sound pretentious. Perhaps I'm taking this whole thing wayyy too seriously, and it's just supposed to be a bit of fun?

Yes and yes. It's a serious discussion that should have impact, but you shouldn't take any derision (not that much derision is even happening in this thread, pussies) personally. In fact, you should be amused by it. I find that strange contrast the best way to understand what someone is saying, because at the same time they're saying it loud AND you're not offended to the point of ignoring them.

[ErikMcClure]

I want to point out here that many, many, many times, I ask people why they like a genre I can't stand. Every single time, it is because they like an aspect of the songs that I either find boring, or in at least one case, was physically incapable of hearing (I have significantly impaired bass frequency differentiation; yes, this means I like trance for all the wrong reasons, too).

By my logic, this makes it entirely valid for me to hate an entire genre if that genre focuses on an aspect of music I don't like. If this wasn't true, than I would not be allowed to dislike ANYTHING for ANY REASON. If I say I hate an entire genre and you manage to find a song in that genre that I happen to like, then I like that song for the complete wrong reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with what the genre is actually about.

A great example of this is dubstep. There have been many dubstep songs I actually like, to a limited degree. The thing is, I like all the parts of the song that aren't dubstep. Therefore I, quite literally, hate the actual thing that the genre itself is about. No one has ever shown me a dubstep song where I actually like the dubstep part. It doesn't exist. I hate it. I don't like that kind of stuff. There is nothing wrong with this, either, because I am allowed to have an opinion.

People are allowed to hate my songs because they are techno and have big thumping beats. If they hate that, I respect their opinion, especially since a lot of them go to great effort to point out that they like the other parts of my song. There is a big difference between saying you hate a particular genre, and saying that all songs in a particular genre are crap. You can hate a song but recognize it isn't crap. Saying all songs of a particular genre are crap is invalid because it is incredibly easy to find or create a counter example. Saying you HATE all songs of a particular genre because that genre does something you hate is, on the other hand, perfectly fine.

[camoshark]

Alright, let's get real here.

I don't get EDM at all. I'm not talking about a genre or musical niche in particuliar, I'm talking about any form of music which's goal is not primarily to be appreciated for it's musical value, but to simply be consumed and then thrown away. To me it sounds like mindless drivel, and I can't understand how someone can be proud of themselves knowing that his music isn't appreciated for itself, but for how it can make oneself zone out.

Also, on that note, it can be said the same for pretty much any media oriented music, be it movie music, game music, etc. I'm not criticizing EVERY song that fits the criteria, I'm talking about music which, on it's own, is inappreciable for it's musical worth.

I'm just saying that in my philosophy, making music should be about expressing oneself through the art form. I cannot accept that my music be consumed by people without them first appreciating the song's intention or musical worth.

Prove me wrong, people, I want a discussion out of this, and would be interested in knowing opposing stances on the subject.

[BrokenDeck]

We talk about this kind of shit in the lounge all the time.

[ErikMcClure]

At 12/12/12 02:07 AM, camoshark wrote: To me it sounds like mindless drivel, and I can't understand how someone can be proud of themselves knowing that his music isn't appreciated for itself, but for how it can make oneself zone out.

Almost every song I make is designed to be appreciable on its own level. Some of them are also meant to be good background music, but then consider that some people consider screamo metal as "background music", so the concept is incredibly ill-defined. A few times, usually when I'm making songs for specific contexts in games, I'll make music that is designed to be ignored, but that music is for a specific purpose that I think is separate from the "listenable" parts of music.

EDM in general is not designed to be thrown away. EDM is an absolutely enormous genre, and the only reason I EVER appreciate any song is because I appreciate the song itself. Sometimes I will acknowledge that a song does a good job of zoning you out or putting you in a "trance" but honestly I have no interest in that (and the modern "Trance" genre doesn't do a good job of that anyway). There is no specific goal in EDM other than there being a beat and it involving electronics. That's it. Currently everyone seems to be getting a hard-on for cool sounding synths, but I don't personally give a shit about synths unless they happen to be truly exceptional, and this is reflected in my EDM music where I focus very hard on building melodies, atmosphere, and catchy beats or earworms that never get repetitive.

I should note that a lot of EDM frustrates me because I like the instruments and the melody but the song structure sometimes betrays how good the original idea was. This song, which is what I currently have on loop, has a melody and synth combination that makes me think of an arctic wasteland, for some reason, and I've been trying to think of how one would restructure the song in a way that does not involve a banal UNCE-UNCE-UNCE-UNCE because it would sound fantastic in a game.

Going back to media-oriented music in general, truly good music, like this fight song from the matrix, can both stand on its own and serve its purpose in a movie. A lot of music in Aquaria qualifies for this too because its amazing and memorable and each song stands on its own as music, not just the soundtrack to a game. Every song used in Braid was created as a standalone song and simply licensed, precisely because the creator of the game didn't think that most video game music would have the kind of depth he desired. That said, creating music that fits into a given role is an art in-of-itself, and while it is difficult to appreciate it as music on its own, it can be appreciated in the context of a larger work of art. Some people like doing that more than others, but obviously enjoying such minimalistic or random music is not something everyone likes to do.

[EagleGuard]

Your favourite genre can contain a few crappy songs. Likewise, your most hated genre can contain a few masterpieces. While categorization is efficient, it does carry the risk of overgeneralization. That said, although I myself am guilty of the "I can't stand X genre" syndrome, the moment people ask me what kind of music I like, I say "whatever sounds good to me".

[camoshark]

At 12/12/12 02:45 AM, Blackhole12 wrote:

Going back to media-oriented music in general...

I think you mistook my stance on media-oriented music. I am all ever in favor of such a thing, in fact, some of my favorite song come from such a genre, I'm simply critiquing, music created in a out-of-the-box fashion, by the likes of Hans Zimmer, king of pulling out the same thing over and over and over again.

I've got nothing against music built around media, what I have a problem with is using this as an excuse to be unoriginal and uncreative. Example provided HERE of what I hate.

[WizMystery]

At 12/12/12 02:17 AM, BrokenDeck wrote: We talk about this kind of shit in the lounge all the time.

Remind me why that thread even exists, again? "Hey, let's make a thread where we can put all other threads so nobody ever needs to make a thread again!" That kind of wrecks the whole forum architecture that the devs worked so hard setting up, does it not?

It's not that I want to spearhead some new important thread (well, maybe... that really says something about my priorities), I just think this is a better way of organizing the discussion. Dispersing these little moments of philosophy throughout is kind of useless and inhibits discussion because people aren't even sure if it's appropriate to respond to a post after a certain amount of time. This is an actual topic to incite discussion, where the lounge is more of a blog environment than anything else.

[ErikMcClure]

At 12/12/12 03:05 AM, camoshark wrote: I've got nothing against music built around media, what I have a problem with is using this as an excuse to be unoriginal and uncreative. Example provided HERE of what I hate.

Nothing ever gives someone an excuse to be unoriginal and uncreative, so I agree with you on that point. If someone's music is unoriginal and uncreative, they suck, they can't try and rationalize their way out of it.

[m8pls]

sup kunts ill jst leve this hear for u nubs 2 pondre over

[MetalRenard]

"Dubstep will never die"... Isn't dubstep relatively new as a genre, and the "will never die" in that case would be more applicable to guitar orientated music such as rock?
Anyway.

I think this thread and the original OP may be on to something, but at the same time I think it's been taken from the wrong perspective. The truth of the matter is that some people don't even try to make their music "good", objectively speaking, or they are incapable of doing so because they don't innovate enough or lack the knowledge to even make the music palatable.

The first is true of many "corporate" bands/performers - the bands that don't write their own songs, that are puppets to a label and who spit out those songs that have that one drum beat and that same structure. Their lack of innovation means they are not being "creative" - their work is simply the opposite of creativity: "technique" (from a philosophical standpoint).

Personally I think there are good reasons and bad reasons for liking/disliking a genre, but you must remain open minded all the same because one day something will surprise you. Having said that, I don't like rap, RnB, dubstep, trance, techno, death metal, jazz...
My reasons are varied. I don't like rap because I feel it lacks the key elements that make it "music" - melody. In my mind, music is rhythm and melody together, you cannot separate the two. This is why I don't understand rap.
I can say the same about death metal, it has gone so far the other way that it joined rap again. It is almost all rhythm based and barely any melody is present, therefore I fail to understand it as a genre. On the other hand, melodic death metal is incredible - just listen to Scar Symmetry and you'll see what I mean.

I won't bore you any more.

P.S. As a genre, "pop" music isn't actually real. "Pop" just means popular and any number of genres are heard in that circle.

[The-iMortal]

At 12/12/12 05:04 AM, MetalRenard wrote: On the other hand, melodic death metal is incredible - just listen to Scar Symmetry and you'll see what I mean.

I checked out one of their songs on Youtube. Guitar solos were nice but why must they ruin it with demonic vocals?