"Gold is for kings, silver is for gentlemen, copper is for the poor and paper money is for slaves.." Unknown

At 11/12/12 08:47 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: "Gold is for kings, silver is for gentlemen, copper is for the poor and paper money is for slaves.." Unknown

They all have the same monetary source value: humans.

At 11/12/12 09:23 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/12/12 08:47 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: "Gold is for kings, silver is for gentlemen, copper isÃf¯Ã'»Ã'¿ for the poor and paper money is for slaves.." Unknown

They all have the same monetary source value: humans.

Gold, Silver, Copper & precious metals are not currency. Currency is constantly deflating to the point it will be worth nothing whereas Precious Metals will always have an intrinsic value therefore will always be worth something more or less. Debt based Fiat currency is not based on an intrinsic value there in lye's is greatest fault.

"Value" is meaningless because we ultimately assign things value based on certain factors like scarcity and industrial importance. In that respect it's not different with fiat currency. The common denominator with all things assigned value is arbitration.

Gold, copper, and silver have less productive value than paper money does.

Gold is largely used because it si shiny. It has some superconductive uses, but most of its value is perception.
Copper has regular conductive properties, but beyond that its value is perception.
Silver has some uses as foodwares (it's good at keeping away bacteria) but beyond that its value is perception.

At least paper money can be recycled into paper which has a multitude of uses from documentary, to construction, to clothing and so on.

In actuality fiat paper money is far more truly valuable than all of the precious metals combined.

I heard a pretty cool quote too

"DeMint started the recession"

At 11/12/12 10:55 PM, Feoric wrote: "Value" is meaningless because we ultimately assign things value based on certain factors like scarcity and industrial importance. In that respect it's not different with fiat currency. The common denominator with all things assigned value is arbitration.

Fiat currency does not create or amount to anything however tangible elements with intrinsic properties that make possible things such as the computer you are using right now are made possible by way of Silver and Gold and other precious metals and minerals. Without precious metals modern society would not exist which is why the intrinsic value of precious metals far exceeds the literal devalue of Debt based monetary currency. I agree to an extent with you that Value is meaningless however "Intrinsic Value" is not meaningless.

At 11/12/12 11:29 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Gold, copper, and silver have less productive value than paper money does.

Gold is largely used because it si shiny. It has some superconductive uses, but most of its value is perception.
Copper has regular conductive properties, but beyond that its value is perception.
Silver has some uses as foodwares (it's good at keeping away bacteria) but beyond that its value is perception.

At least paper money can be recycled into paper which has a multitude of uses from documentary, to construction, to clothing and so on.

In actuality fiat paper money is far more truly valuable than all of the precious metals combined.

You cant eat currency and you can't eat gold but you need gold and other precious metals and minerals to create all modern electronics including but not limited to the computers that keep up the dog and pony show called commerce.

At 11/12/12 09:51 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 11/12/12 09:23 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/12/12 08:47 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: "Gold is for kings, silver is for gentlemen, copper isÃffÃ'¯Ãf'Ã'»Ãf'Ã'¿ for the poor and paper money is for slaves.." Unknown

They all have the same monetary source value: humans.

Gold, Silver, Copper & precious metals are not currency. Currency is constantly deflating to the point it will be worth nothing whereas Precious Metals will always have an intrinsic value therefore will always be worth something more or less. Debt based Fiat currency is not based on an intrinsic value there in lye's is greatest fault.

If I didn't know better I'd say someone who vehemently disagreed with the points you are trying to put forward is paying you to troll.

1. Currency just refers to a system of money, Money can be a commodity as in the case of the Classical Gold standard, but it can also be a fiat currency.

2. We don't normally say that a currency deflates to the point of being worthless, we say it inflates.

3. While inflation is a monetary phenomenon, complete devaluation of a currency is almost always a political one.

4. Nothing has any intrinsic value, commodities simply have uses besides their function as a currency which prevents them from ever becoming 'worthless', and the inability to manufacture them at will makes currency inflating impossible. Depending on whether or not you agree with the idea of state run monetary policy you will see this as a good or a bad thing.

Please take a break from the forums, revisit your old sources, try to find people who disagree and politely read their arguments, then read the counter arguments if you can find them, and then come back

At 11/13/12 12:29 AM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

1. Currency just refers to a system of money, Money can be a commodity as in the case of the Classical Gold standard, but it can also be a fiat currency.

Money means nothing it is a name given to currency LOL Currency or money is or was supposed to be a system of exchange of value not value in and of itself. Currency is used to exchange things of value on the market. Gold was replaced by a form of currency called the "green back" as it was at that time to be 100% backed by gold as it is pretty fucking hard and expensive to ship gold all around the world or in your pocket for that matter.
Wall Street which is the ultimate manifestation of the pursuit of money as a commodity rather than any form of true creation or social contribution is naturally a ripe entity for symbolic objection for at a minimum it should not even exist at all and most certainly not have the grand effect it does on the stability of the global economy today regardless of the inherent shortcomings denoted.
To think of money/currency as a true commodity such as Lumber, Steel, Coal, Oil, Fish, etc is a fallacy and actually quite insane and will only lead to complete economic collapse like we are already barring witness to.

At 11/12/12 11:29 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Gold, copper, and silver have less productive value than paper money does.

Gold is largely used because it si shiny. It has some superconductive uses, but most of its value is perception.

AARRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNN
WRONG
Rarity ....its value comes from its property to never tarnish, AKA its SHINEY

& did i mention IT is Rare !

They must all be off playing BLOPS II

At 11/13/12 01:07 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

To think of money/currency as a true commodity such as Lumber, Steel, Coal, Oil, Fish, etc is a fallacy and actually quite insane and will only lead to complete economic collapse like we are already barring witness to.

The Term Money predates the widespread adoption of monopoly-Fiat currencies by state-run central banks.

"Money" simply refers to a medium of exchange. A thing which acts as a common denominator to express exchange ratios of goods and services in a market economy is called money.

"Legal Tender" refers to a medium of exchange that is established by law. I.e. Fiat Currency.

The terms "Fiat Money" and "Commodity Money" exist precisely because money can refer to either of these things.

Your understanding on the definition of words compromises your position irreparably.

At 11/13/12 05:51 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

At 11/13/12 01:07 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

To think of money/currency as a true commodity such as Lumber, Steel, Coal, Oil, Fish, etc is a fallacy and actually quite insane and will only lead to complete economic collapse like we are already barring witness to.

Your understanding on the definition of words compromises your position irreparably.

Your understanding or rather brainwashing into thinking money is a commodity is insane and the point in question here not the arbitrary definition of currency. Currency is not a commodity and it never was and will never be a commodity no matter what Wall Street or the Government say.

At 11/13/12 05:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 11/13/12 05:51 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

At 11/13/12 01:07 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

To think of money/currency as a true commodity such as Lumber, Steel, Coal, Oil, Fish, etc is a fallacy and actually quite insane and will only lead to complete economic collapse like we are already barring witness to.

Your understanding on the definition of words compromises your position irreparably.

Your understanding or rather brainwashing into thinking money is a commodity is insane and the point in question here not the arbitrary definition of currency. Currency is not a commodity and it never was and will never be a commodity no matter what Wall Street or the Government say.

First of all, please calm down.

Second,
I've pointed out that the word "Currency" and "Money" were both used by people to refer to media of exchange prior to the institution of legal tender laws and fiat currency in various countries across the world.

No one, opponents and supporters of fiat currency, uses your definition of "Money" and "Currency" -- No Dictionary uses your definition of currency and money. No person historically that I know of have used your

All definitions are arbitrary. There's nothing written in the heavens that a word ought to mean something, but since words are a social concept its wise policy to go with social and historical definitions. Especially if those definitions are clear and unambiguous. [Examples of unclear and ambiguous words are Racism and Fascism which because of its history has a separate definition for each person who uses it]

You are more than free to deconstruct the language that people use to discuss ideas. I do it all the time. But deconstructing words is not the same as redefining them. Deconstructing things is supposed to bring clarity, redefining them brings confusion.

Whether or not you decide to call a concept by the name that is generally accepted has no bearing on whether or not a particular idea surrounding that concept is valid or not.

I.E. Even if you DO define Money and currency as Fiat money, which is what you seem to be talking about, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is a good thing to have.

At 11/13/12 07:00 AM, morefngdbs wrote: & did i mention IT is Rare !

Rarity =/= intrinsic value.

Wood is FAR more instrinsically valuable than gold and you can find the shit everywhere.

Gold is only valuable because people say it is. Otherwise it's about as useful as a treadmill to a parapalegic.

At 11/13/12 08:47 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/13/12 07:00 AM, morefngdbs wrote: & did i mention IT is Rare !

Rarity =/= intrinsic value.

Wood is FAR more instrinsically valuable than gold and you can find the shit everywhere.

Gold is only valuable because people say it is. Otherwise it's about as useful as a treadmill to a parapalegic.

No Gold is valuable to infinity because it makes those Computers possible that control the whole dog and pony show called commerce. Also gold has far more intrinsic value than almost any other element on this planet because it is literally untarnishable and will last forever as compared to wood.

At 11/13/12 08:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

Also gold has far more intrinsic value than almost any other element on this planet because it is literally untarnishable and will last forever as compared to wood.

i guess ill get rich off all my plastic then, because its untarnishable and lasts forever

At 11/13/12 09:33 PM, lengendary-41 wrote:

At 11/13/12 08:58 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

Also gold has far more intrinsic value than almost any other element on this planet because it is literally untarnishable and will last forever as compared to wood.

i guess ill get rich off all my plastic then, because its untarnishable and lasts forever

You are not respecting the fact that plastic is not a rare and pure element like Gold therefore plastic is intrinsically about the same value as wood more or less. In 100 years or so when all the Oil in the Middle East and Canada is dried up then is the time in where plastic will become at leased as valuable as Gold speaking purely in terms of monetary value.

At 11/13/12 08:47 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/13/12 07:00 AM, morefngdbs wrote: & did i mention IT is Rare !

Rarity =/= intrinsic value.

Instrinsic value =/= anything.

First off, the criteria of so-called as a necessary or proper quality of money is absurd. No one would deny, for example, that Gasoline has many practical uses and is justifiably very valuable. Notwithstanding gasoline would make a terrible form of money.

What is all this hubub about Instrinsic value again anyway.

______________

If we're dealing with a commodity money, these are the qualities that make it good from an economic [and non philosophic perspective]

1. Divisible <-- if breaking it into subgroups reduces the value of those individual components [think like sawing a television in half] In addition to something being divisible, it's also good if your money can be anti-divisible. Metals are special in this regard in that they can be melted into separate units but also melted together without losing much metal in the process and without affecting the price one pays per weight of it.

2. Non-perishable <--- You need to be able to store money and not have it disappear on you.

3. High price/weight ratio. <--- Means for any given amount of money less volume of storage in a bank or in a wallet is necessary

4. Limit Quantity that is not likely to randomly rise or fall <--- Again this goes into arguments over whether it is a good thing to have a government with the ability to increase or decrease the supply of money at will as a means of regulating the boom-bust cycle. But most people would agree that you wouldn't want random [i.e. not caused by government] changes in the supply of money if that option was off the table.

5. Something you wouldn't MIND storing <---- Because precious metals' non-money uses are aesthetic rather than what we might call 'practical' or 'day to day living related' like Wood, Gasoline, Iron, etc. Taking these things out of use to be used as money is less of a cost on society than taking something that is useful. Ergo something with a high "value" in terms of its practical uses would not make a good money unless the cost of taking a given quantity out of use for other purposes is negligible Of course if it is negligible, its probably because the supply of it is very high, which means its price/weight ratio is low.

I'll also add that economics is never concerned with the total value of a good. Value is only of relevance when making choices between alternatives, the idea of comparing the total value of all gold to the total value of something with more practical usage is less economics and more philosophy.

I'm not sure if you took the position that without its history as money Gold would not have been priced as high as it is today. It is probably true that gold prices would probably not be at roughly 1700 dollars per ounce right now, but it would not have anywhere close to the same weight to value ratio as

We can infer this by looking at Diamonds before they were used as industrial cutting tools. Diamonds would not make very good money since they cannot be divided easily. But their price to weight ratio was very likely much higher than other things.

Marginal utility has answered the question of why Diamonds would be priced higher than more 'useful' goods. And the same would likely be true of Gold.

Of course if people were puritanically disgusted by all forms of vanity, then it might be that gold would fetch a very low price.

At 11/13/12 08:47 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/13/12 07:00 AM, morefngdbs wrote: & did i mention IT is Rare !

Rarity =/= intrinsic value.

Wood is FAR more instrinsically valuable than gold and you can find the shit everywhere.

;;;
That is exactly the point SOME wood is cheap so cheap we burn it , throw it away, other wood like Gabon Ebony is a completely different story & sells for around $60 here in Nova Scotia a board foot.

Gold is only valuable because people say it is. Otherwise it's about as useful as a treadmill to a parapalegic.

THat exact same thing can be said about a federal reserve note, or any other paper note.
A perfect example a Zimbabwean dollar.
Costs just as much to make as a US Fed Note, is made of the same stuff & is worth exactly the same -nothing- & if the US keeps printing them at the rate they are going it will find itself at its true value before to long & everyone will be in a world of hurt untilt he next easily exchangable currency gets sorted out
BUT IN THE MEANTIME IF THAT HAPPENS ...gold & ilver will once again be a readily accepted means of exchange AKA money.

It doesn't actually have any value.

Yet a ounce of gold in Rome & an ounce of gold today have similar buying power.
Another thing, Gold & Silver are not actually increasing in value.
Paper dollars & other curriencies are DEVALUING, & it is the LOSS OF PURCHASING POWER that is driving up the dollar amount required to buy gold & silver ~;)

At 11/12/12 10:55 PM, Feoric wrote: "Value" is meaningless because we ultimately assign things value based on certain factors like scarcity and industrial importance. In that respect it's not different with fiat currency. The common denominator with all things assigned value is arbitration.

Exactly. And it that system Gold, and other metals are valuable. Get it?

At 11/14/12 05:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

Yet a ounce of gold in Rome & an ounce of gold today have similar buying power.
Another thing, Gold & Silver are not actually increasing in value.
Paper dollars & other curriencies are DEVALUING, & it is the LOSS OF PURCHASING POWER that is driving up the dollar amount required to buy gold & silver ~;)

Exacatly. Gold and Silver are the real money and nothing else. To bad the sheep will not understand this fact of reality until it is to late and the Military starts handing out rations as a sort of life support when this corrupt financial system runs itself out and paper fait currency is no longer valid as payment. It will be in between the time when this financial systems currency crashes and the next official currency is adopted in where many people will die American people will die except the ones that were smart enough and rich enough to invest is a crap load of gold and silver and food to weather the storm.

At 11/14/12 05:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Yet a ounce of gold in Rome & an ounce of gold today have similar buying power.

You still are missing the point. Gold has value to purchase things solely because people say it does. Just like paper money. Neither of the two forms of currency has real value other than that given to it as useful for currency.

In other words, the only value that both gold and paper money have is that other people believe they hold value. That's about it.

At 11/14/12 06:53 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/14/12 05:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Yet a ounce of gold in Rome & an ounce of gold today have similar buying power.

You still are missing the point. Gold has value to purchase things solely because people say it does. Just like paper money. Neither of the two forms of currency has real value other than that given to it as useful for currency.

In other words, the only value that both gold and paper money have is that other people believe they hold value. That's about it.

We already went through this. GOLD has a tangible physical purpose and use Fiat currency weather paper or numbers in a computer "a computer I might add made possible by way of GOLD" that represent the paper currency that was supposed to represent the GOLD have no value aside from that given to it by the Government AKA FIAT currency. GOLD is not currency it is a store of real value because it has a real key purpose and use in modern society in electronics aside from the fact that it is a rare and precious PURE element. FIAT currency is a means to control the heard of sheep by way of massive debt that they can never repay because paper FIAT money is worth less than nothing now in days as it IS DEBT.

might as well be using coal, or ipods or wood as money then. They have uses and value based on being useful for things as well.

Glass even could be money if real value was thought to be based off a use for an object other than currency.

Gold would only have a use as currency as it did before. It would have to be accepted as money.

You may as well just barter items if you're going with gold has other uses as to why it is worth more than paper money as far as currency.

At 11/14/12 07:09 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: GOLD is not currency it is a store of real value because it has a real key purpose and use in modern society in electronics aside from the fact that it is a rare and precious PURE element.

First off, the amount of gold used in electronics is very small, especially when compared to the extreme amount of gold around. Second, if gold is valuable because it is a pure element, why is pure gold not on the market? It's not because pure gold is not a feasible substance. It need to be mixed with other metals to become hard enough to survive the shapes it is smelted into.

Face it. Gold is only valuable because we say it is. If it were not for the relatively small use in computers it's other use would be purely aesthetic. We value gold because we have decided that gold is valuable. Gold did nothing to earn this distinction. It is like the color purple. Back in ancient times gold was extremely hard to get a hold of, so only the wealthiest and most powerful could get it. Therefore gold became associated with wealth and that soon changed into an association with value, even though gold is damn near useless today.

FIAT currency is a means to control the heard of sheep by way of massive debt that they can never repay because paper FIAT money is worth less than nothing now in days as it IS DEBT.

Fiat currency is nothing other than an attempt to take the same fake value that was foisted upon gold and foist it upon something else that can expand with the economy unlike gold.

At 11/14/12 07:20 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/14/12 07:09 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: GOLD is not currency it is a store of real value because it has a real key purpose and use in modern society in electronics aside from the fact that it is a rare and precious PURE element.

First off, the amount of gold used in electronics is very small, especially when compared to the extreme amount of gold around. Second, if gold is valuable because it is a pure element, why is pure gold not on the market? It's not because pure gold is not a feasible substance. It need to be mixed with other metals to become hard enough to survive the shapes it is smelted into.

First off GOLD Bullion is 99.9% pure and has that .1% alloying agent to make it mailable into solid pieces, coins and bars otherwise it would just be hard to handle dust. Still many thousands time more valuable than nothing....

Face it. Gold is only valuable because we say it is. If it were not for the relatively small use in computers it's other use would be purely aesthetic. We value gold because we have decided that gold is valuable.

It's called supply and demand. You lost this argument long ago so lets move along.

FIAT currency is a means to control the heard of sheep by way of massive debt that they can never repay because paper FIAT money is worth less than nothing now in days as it IS DEBT.

Fiat currency is nothing other than an attempt to take the same fake value that was foisted upon gold and foist it upon something else that can expand with the economy unlike gold.

You want to get into debating derivatives that will really blow your mind if FIAT currency didn't already LOL.

At 11/14/12 07:20 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Fiat currency is nothing other than an attempt to take the same fake value that was foisted upon gold and foist it upon something else that can expand with the economy unlike gold.

The major hole in your theory is that gold does not have "fake value". I know this because every nation in the world uses it to some extent, and is UNIVERSALLY accepted as currency.

At 11/14/12 08:10 PM, LemonCrush wrote:

At 11/14/12 07:20 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Fiat currency is nothing other than an attempt to take the same fake value that was foisted upon gold and foist it upon something else that can expand with the economy unlike gold.

The major hole in your theory is that gold does not have "fake value". I know this because every nation in the world uses it to some extent, and is UNIVERSALLY accepted as currency.

I agree with this "The major hole in your theory is that gold does not have "fake value". I know this because every nation in the world uses it to some extent" But I am not so sure about this "UNIVERSALLY accepted as currency." as GOLD is not currency in any country it is however a means to store wealth not debt. You buy gold with FIAT currency in order to store your wealth in safe keeping. You can then at any time you need to exchange the Gold on the market for FIAT dollars of your choice so you can then buy up China made useless consumer junk that will just devalue the second you by it LOL.