I am confused on this.

I have all of my tracks to where they never go over 0db, but the master output still does.
Should I add a compressor or something to the master output to correct this?
I tried googling this, but to no avail.

If you could help me, I'd be the happiest person alive.

:D

At 2/22/11 11:58 PM, Obsideo wrote: I have all of my tracks to where they never go over 0db, but the master output still does.

First, take a break for an hour or two -- your ears quickly get used to how things sound -- and how you perceive sound also changes quickly. So if you work for too long, you will start making decisions that will make the final mix sound awful.

Secondly, try EQing stuff:
- On instruments like guitars, vocals, higher pitched instruments (oboes, violins, flutes, synths that only play middle C or above, etc.) throw it in the EQ and cut out anything below 100Hz (80Hz should be the lowest note on a guitar, so cut anything below 80Hz on a lead or rhythm guitar track). It may not sound like much on each individual track, but low level hiss and background noise quickly accumulates and really adds up -- cut the bass wherever you can.
- Do a slight cut around 300Hz (this is where 'muddiness' tends to occur).
- On your master fader track (or on an aux send that all tracks go to) be sure to EQ stuff -- generally, for pop music, you want to boost the bass a bit and add a nice shelf around 10,000Hz.
- DO NOT go compressing everything: it will make your recording sound terrible unless you know are an expert with compressors; you will often end up with noisier tracks that 'pump' (i.e. you can hear the compressor switching on and off).

Or if you 'think' you have everything mixed perfectly (and I can almost guarantee that you won't, but that's for a different discussion), you can do the following:
- Set a Limiter on your master fader (will cut anything above 0dB to roughly 0dB)
- Turn down the volume of all of your tracks (set them as a group so that all the faders stay in the same places) OR
- Turn down your master fader.

Thank you, I'm using those tips right now.

At 2/23/11 12:16 AM, RampantMusik wrote:

At 2/22/11 11:58 PM, Obsideo wrote: I have all of my tracks to where they never go over 0db, but the master output still does.

First, take a break for an hour or two -- your ears quickly get used to how things sound -- and how you perceive sound also changes quickly. So if you work for too long, you will start making decisions that will make the final mix sound awful.

Secondly, try EQing stuff:

What?

- Do a slight cut around 300Hz (this is where 'muddiness' tends to occur).
- On your master fader track (or on an aux send that all tracks go to) be sure to EQ stuff -- generally, for pop music, you want to boost the bass a bit and add a nice shelf around 10,000Hz.

Yes

Or if you 'think' you have everything mixed perfectly (and I can almost guarantee that you won't, but that's for a different discussion), you can do the following:
- Set a Limiter on your master fader (will cut anything above 0dB to roughly 0dB)
- Turn down the volume of all of your tracks (set them as a group so that all the faders stay in the same places) OR

No - does not fix the problem that your channels are playing too loud.

- Turn down your master fader.

On a few songs of mine I have been mixing with the master bus turned to +3. I try my best not to make it clip or go above 0dB but if it goes over 1dB I'm not too worried because in the end I'll return the fader to 0dB. This way I can boost it up when done.

Everyone does things differently, find what you like to do and perfect it.

At 2/22/11 11:58 PM, Obsideo wrote: I have all of my tracks to where they never go over 0db, but the master output still does.

Sounds compound. I've made a simple diagram though to help you out.

Bleh I always do this.

Just lower the master fade until its acceptable.

At 2/22/11 11:58 PM, Obsideo wrote: I am confused on this.

I have all of my tracks to where they never go over 0db, but the master output still does.
Should I add a compressor or something to the master output to correct this?
I tried googling this, but to no avail.

If you could help me, I'd be the happiest person alive.

D

A sound playing at -3 dB added to another one at -3 dB will probably be over +-0dB (I don't know exactly but it sounds about right). Eventually even though none of your individual tracks are over the limit they will add together and exceed it. It is best to make sure that this is not the case and scale back your individual tracks until your master no longer clips except possibly in a few spots for a second or two (or even less if possible!)

Then you can use a compressor/limiter/maximizer to beef up the sound as desired, but the initial mix should never be clipping except on extreme percussion transients. If it is it's just mixed way too loud to begin with.

Do not fix this problem by turning down the master output fader, it is not the "real" solution.

At 2/23/11 02:40 PM, Chronamut wrote:

At 2/23/11 01:50 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote:

Bleh I always do this.

Just lower the master fade until its acceptable.

lol..

Let me clarify you silly goose, I always fail to link the image in the related post.

To keep on topic, OP there is a lot more to mixing then running a 0db across the board. While that may work situation-ally for some genres, your individual channels tend to be more malleable if they have head room in them. Search around on the forum for "mixing" related threads. I did a quick search and plenty of relevance comes up.

--> http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/search/top ic/mixing <--

At 2/23/11 02:54 PM, Chronamut wrote: I tend to try to keep everything under 0 db in each channel while also keepingn it as wide as possible - it's all about balance.

and sometimes I'll cheat and lower the mixer volume and raise the master volume muhahaha :P

Don't try this at home kids, Chronamut is a trained professional at cheating the rules!

It depends, if you've one snare hit that just clips but no one notices then I wouldn't worry about it. Mixing to 0db is fine as long as you're not squishing everything to bring that upto it. I'd suggest a limiter on the master out at -1db FS but you'll inevitable just squash everything upto it. That's something you might do when your finished mixing, but to be honest you need to understand what's happening in the first place:

The reason your signal is so hot at the output is that all the signals are summing at there -so for example if you've a guitar and a voice at the same volume and they both contain the frequency 300hz (and are in phase, don't worry about this. We'll assume phase isn't an issue) then the frequency 300hz is going to be 3db louder because you've double the energy at that frequency. If the snare has abit and is at equal volume you'll have 6db etc. etc. Imagine you double track your voice (or especialy ADT your voice) - every frequency in that could argueably be doubling and giving you a flat 3db across.

So you can see what's happening is every instrument is somewhere in the spectrum and will obviously share some frequencies and these will become louder than others. Which is why you can have a huge chest thumping kick sound and a super fat bass and put them together and start getting heartache. They're competing for frequencies and your earing is hearing this lump of extra energy at the low end and something needs to go or you'll end up with mud. I've heard adages about having a choice between a huge kick and a huge bass sound but I don't beleive that's neccesarily true either.

So to go back: if you'd a billion tracks tickling the meters with a single frequency you'd find it'd clip very easily - it just stacks up and up. It's basic addition, really. But in dBFS and dBV (what we're working in) a doubling of power is 3dB. Likewise in loudness it's 3dB or in power I think it's 10dB. This is due to how human hearing works and I adivse you'd read about that - for clarity and for an insight into what you're doing when you're mixing.

At 2/23/11 03:55 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: So to go back: if you'd a billion tracks tickling the meters with a single frequency you'd find it'd clip very easily - it just stacks up and up. It's basic addition, really. But in dBFS and dBV (what we're working in) a doubling of power is 3dB. Likewise in loudness it's 3dB or in power I think it's 10dB. This is due to how human hearing works and I adivse you'd read about that - for clarity and for an insight into what you're doing when you're mixing.

Me being the recording engineer nerd that I am, I found myself needing to comment on the fact that dBV is irrelevant since I highly doubt he's running it through an SSL or hardware effects racks.

To be honest, there's no one right way to mix. The only basic guidelines for pop music are for drums, bass, and lead vocals to be center panned; other instruments can be panned anywhere else.

I might add that it's actually a fairly common thing I see, believe it or not, when I'm helping other students with their mix: every track is centered, they've compressed the hell out of everything, the bass is pumping at a threshold of -24dB and a 7.0:1 ratio, and they wonder why they're still clipping and their mix sounds like crap.

At 2/23/11 04:25 PM, RampantMusik wrote:

Me being the recording engineer nerd that I am, I found myself needing to comment on the fact that dBV is irrelevant since I highly doubt he's running it through an SSL or hardware effects racks.

Was just an example - I think understanding what the meter is saying helps with the issue. A doubling of loudness is 3db - that's a fact. And it's a useful fact. To know that it's not 3dB in every log scale helps also.

I've also met alot of people who don't know what they're doing buying hardwire, trying to work it failing and let it gather dust because "all it does is clip the signal".

I might add that it's actually a fairly common thing I see, believe it or not, when I'm helping other students with their mix: every track is centered, they've compressed the hell out of everything, the bass is pumping at a threshold of -24dB and a 7.0:1 ratio, and they wonder why they're still clipping and their mix sounds like crap.

I see this in my class also. People are told modern mixes are shiny, polished and not very wide and they come back with over compressed, stereoless mixes with a ton of reverb dumped on the kick. I don't like modern pop mixes, but it's a hard formula to emulate off the bat.

We actualy got results back for a mix of an awful, awful Hardcore Punk track (awful singer, really dully recordings of the instruments. Literaly all just wool - no high end information) and I heard the lecturer talking to one student about his use of side chained compression. Now the guy is a DJ and it's a common dance music technique and admittedly an interesting approach to take with this sort of track - but it wasn't going to work.

People found a few recording engineers who use ultra dry enviroments and program reverbs and assume that you need to avoid acoustic reverb. But can they program reverbs? Not really. Other people hear that, say, Steve Albini uses ribbon mics and assumes you'll need those to get his sort of sound. Or that Brian Eno uses a deck of special cards, or Phil Spector used to bring a gun to the studio...

The idea when stepping into mixing is that it's a subjective thing - otherwise we could all just write songs the good way, play them the good way, record them and then mix them the good way. But it's not that simple a procedure. All I'd say is if you record your tracks well you should never need to go "repair" mixing to it afterwards. But then you don't always record what you mix or mix what you record...

At 2/23/11 01:50 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote:

Bleh I always do this.

Just lower the master fade until its acceptable.

Isnt this like dynamics taboo?
For those of you who believe in dynamics that is.

At 2/23/11 05:46 PM, jpbear wrote:

At 2/23/11 01:50 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote:

Bleh I always do this.

Just lower the master fade until its acceptable.

Isnt this like dynamics taboo?
For those of you who believe in dynamics that is.

Better that your outward signal doesn't clip. It can clip all it wants in the mixer channels though. Still not adviseable either. If you lower the master you do nothing to dynamics, you just make it more quiet. If you master afterwards and do something wonkey though you'll lose dynamics.

I wish I could take a class in audio engineering so I could learn all the rules i'm going to break.

At 2/23/11 03:55 PM, Chris-V2 wrote:

:Likewise in loudness it's 3dB or in power I think it's 10dB.

Otherway around. Power (SPL) is doubled every 3db, percieved loudness every 10db. source

At 2/23/11 05:46 PM, jpbear wrote:

At 2/23/11 01:50 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote: Just lower the master fade until its acceptable.

Isnt this like dynamics taboo?
For those of you who believe in dynamics that is.

lowering a volume fader will do nothing to dynamics (other than bring it closer to the noise floor). compressing/limiting/clipping is what kills dynamics.

At 2/23/11 04:29 PM, Chronamut wrote: There probably IS a correct way to mix but most of us are largely uneducated on the subject and also gear our mixes to oyur personal taskes.

I know the point of your post was mostly contrary to this statement, but I just want to point out, saying 'gearing our mixes to our personal tasks is wrong' is contradictory to the point of mixing.

take me for instance.. I don't care much for lows and thus favour highs more, and also favour a very wide mix. Now I've had one or 2 people tell me it makes my mixes too bright but in the end, others also like it and I like it..

so eventually it's like.. where does one draw the line?

mixing is still part of the artistic process dude. If you want to mix your music like that, so be it.

I think most people confuse mixing for a process where everything needs to be cleaned up, when in actual fact it's supposed to be a way of combining seperate instruments to give the artistic effect intended. However, cleanliness and sparkliness are often the most common things people want in a song.

If you want a dirty, muddy mix for a song that's intended to be dirty and muddy, then so be it.

If you want to overcompress your instruments into oblivion because you like that sound then so be it, I might tell you I don't like the song but it all comes down to the artists intent and the extent of their regard for the listeners tastes.

I think the line is drawn at the point of the extent of the artists regard for ones listeners is.

im not sure if im on topic or not. whatever.

At 2/23/11 07:22 PM, xKore wrote:

Isnt this like dynamics taboo?
For those of you who believe in dynamics that is.

lowering a volume fader will do nothing to dynamics (other than bring it closer to the noise floor). compressing/limiting/clipping is what kills dynamics.

still feels like cheating :P

I always push my master into the red. Then normalize to -0.1 dB when I'm done ;D

I guess it's all just taste and experimentation. If you like the way it sounds, then you like the way it sounds. But I agree with a lot of what has been said here. It seems that a lot of people think mixing is just to clean a song up but its really there to make it sound how you want it to sound. It's treated as a whole different thing to writing but with electronic music they're really one in the same. Now if you're talking about actual recorded music then it's probably a slightly different story but I still think you'd use it to reach the proper sound. Basically mate, it's entirely up to you how you decide to mix. I'm sure some hardcore professionals might laugh at you but they'd be laughing at the rest of us too.

Original question was answered perfectly fine by IO but everyone keeps discussing an entirely different set of topics

Why does this always happen

I always export in the red and push the limiter hard when I master. If my waveform looks like a brick, then I've achieved what I set out to do ;D

At 2/24/11 10:52 AM, Chronamut wrote:

At 2/24/11 10:03 AM, jarrydn wrote: I always export in the red and push the limiter hard when I master. If my waveform looks like a brick, then I've achieved what I set out to do ;D

at least you don't put a brickwall limiter on the master bus :P

and lol - to each his own :)

Hey man, brickwall limiters are important!

...just don't overdo the compression aspect and hopefully you'll only be limiting the song for 2 or 3 seconds total during spiking transients.

Well, I can dream, right? :p

My sig. All you need to know.

At 2/24/11 02:22 PM, Alchemist94 wrote: ...Or put 8 soundgoodizers on the master.

GTFO audio forum. Now. I'm serious. Soundgoodizers? Really? C'mon, this isn't preschool. Learn to EQ like a REAL man.

Personally, I literally don't give a flying fuck about overall volume until the mastering stage. (If it's loud enough to start clipping, fuck it unless it's actually noticable.) Prior to the mastering stage, all I care about is how loud the instruments are relative to each other.

And once I get to the mastering stage, I still don't care. Why? Because I can lower the input volume in Maximus. (Or raise it if necessary, but I've only done that maybe twice or thrice.)

I generally compose very loud, angry songs.

Put a limiter on the master fader?

At 2/27/11 03:05 AM, Daimoth wrote: Put a limiter on the master fader?

You would think, but we here at NG like to do things the hard way. It's more manly.

Its cool how everyone here uses FL. Other forums might be like "wuts a songoodizer?"

as to mixing there's never harm in putting a limiter at the bottom of the master. it will always prevent clipping over 0db but will never touch it if its not. Everything else is adjusted to taste imo. and yea save some volume by cutting unnecessary bass.

I'm tempted to create a useless format to level my songs after going through this thread a couple of times...

Of course I just keep a general overall level for each mixer channel, depending on what I'm doing. If it goes over I'll lower volume until it fits unless I end up needing to do some soft compression. Other then that I try to stay in the -1 to 0db range on the master.