At 9/25/10 03:34 PM, poxpower wrote: So where's the study that shows people downloading child porn increases occurrences of child abuse?

Hard to find good studies on the subject because of the subject matter. However, can you think of any other reason that someone would make such a video/photoshoot? Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?

And I can claim that they don't want exposure because it puts them more at risk of getting caught.

If they didn't want exposure, they wouldn't film themselves doing what is arguably one of the most despicable acts imaginable and putting it on the internet. If that logic prevailed, CP would never be a problem. Why do you think there is such a different mentality between those who film themselves getting kicked in the crotch and putting it on youtube, and those who film naked children and put it online? WHY ELSE would someone put that out there for people to download? And if no one ever downloaded it, why would anyone ever make the films to begin with?

There is a very real, logical, causal link between desire for, and consumption of, this product, and its production. To argue otherwise is retarded.

At 9/25/10 08:44 PM, Ravariel wrote:

Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?

Well like I said, how many are actually inspired by that? Because child porn has been an industry for a lot longer than the internet has. Did it get way worse because of the internet?

Or are there other factors that affect it about a billion times more, like crime rate, sexual education, poverty, mental therapies etc.

If going after everyone who has child porn online "prevents" like 5 kids from getting raped but jails 4000 people and wastes 20 million dollars or something, then it's clearly a waste of time.

If they didn't want exposure, they wouldn't film themselves doing what is arguably one of the most despicable acts imaginable and putting it on the internet.

Unless someone's paying them for it.

I get what you mean, just because some people looks at those doesn't mean they'll "do it" in real life.

On to the article, whoa...

At 9/26/10 12:15 AM, poxpower wrote:

At 9/25/10 08:44 PM, Ravariel wrote:

Or do you actually think that #1 and #3 that I mentioned before are the only reasons, EVAR, that people make CP?

Well like I said, how many are actually inspired by that? Because child porn has been an industry for a lot longer than the internet has. Did it get way worse because of the internet?

That's... a good question. My gut says yes, but I don't know that for certain. The effect that the internet has had on other industries related to film, video, and images (see: youtube, etc) would point to a bigger CP problem, but who knows. Again, this is one of those things that is hard to study, due to the illegality of actually viewing the material in question. I can't imagine the gummn't allowing immunity for some college guy to look at CP to determine if the internets are causing the instances to boom.

Or are there other factors that affect it about a billion times more, like crime rate, sexual education, poverty, mental therapies etc.

I'm sure those do, indeed, effect the availability and production. Especially considering that countries like Thailand and Eastern Europe, some of the poorest countries with good access to technology are the hotbeds of the CP industry. This really would be a wonderful (and terrible) avenue of study for an anthropologist.

If going after everyone who has child porn online "prevents" like 5 kids from getting raped but jails 4000 people and wastes 20 million dollars or something, then it's clearly a waste of time.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "wasted". I agree that our current policies are kind of ridiculous. Charging a 14-year old who sexted her boyfriend with possession and distribution of CP is retarded. Full stop. I think Penn and Teller did a show about something exactly like this, where a kid was put on the Sex Offender registry because a friend of him forwarded him such a picture. However, I'm sure there is some sort of mens rea statute that could be implemented that can discern between those who dl'ed the wrong thing on accident, and those who are seeking it out on purpose.

Hell, I've argued before that CP should be legal. Based mostly on the fact that only in this instance is the image of a crime itself a crime, which could be stuck under 14th amendment inequality, and also 1st amendment issues of free speech (mostly in this regard to actual artistic images of children who happen to be naked, and films of nudist gatherings, etc). It's one of those almost-devil's-advocate things, where I can honestly see both sides, and agree with both of them, and don't really know where the law should stand to give us a truly fair system.

Unless someone's paying them for it.

Well, that's another can of worms all together.

At 9/26/10 06:19 PM, Ravariel wrote:

That's... a good question. My gut says yes, but I don't know that for certain.

I'm looking for those facts and I can't find em'.

Again, this is one of those things that is hard to study, due to the illegality of actually viewing the material in question.

Well, not really, it's a simple stat: what's the rate of sexual child crimes in the country?
Seems straightforward enough.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "wasted".

Spending 20 million ( random number ) to save 5 kids is a waste considering that you could probably save 10 times as many if you invested that money in medicine and hospitals.

Hence "wasted". Plus you're jailing people and pulling them out of the economy and then instead pay like 20-30k a year to keep them in jail. So they skip generating their, say, 15-20k salary on top of which they actually cost money, all under the unfounded assumption that if you look at child porn then you're guilty of child abuse.

Hell, I've argued before that CP should be legal. Based mostly on the fact that only in this instance is the image of a crime itself a crime, which could be stuck under 14th amendment inequality, and also 1st amendment issues of free speech (mostly in this regard to actual artistic images of children who happen to be naked, and films of nudist gatherings, etc).

Yep. I don't know if it's legal to pass around snuff films of people getting tortured/killed etc but I'm guessing it is and it does generate some revenue.

Did you just defend child porn?

Now I've seen fucking everything.

Reminds me, to a lesser extent, to the question what should be done with rape charges. It happens that people get falsely accused of rape and domestic violence and get thrown in jail, or lose their reputation over nothing. But then it comes to what the best way is to deal with these accusation. You can't just tell the "abusive" husband that his wife filed a complaint and you are researching it. That will cause the man to do worse stuff to his wife if he was guilty.

Now, in case of paedophilia this is less the case, since there are no actual victims. Still, if left out of control, it can result in the guy actually harassing kids himself. But I will agree, a public scandal about this might trash an innocent.

a while back there was some mess about a cardinal who possessed CP, this was actually made worse in the backlash of paedophile priests. eventually, the pictures were part of a slide show about third world aid campaign (you know poor villages->naked kids running around and so on) and the organisation said it was sad that such pictures my be made in such a big deal.
As far as I know, the cardinal didn't really get jailed, so it turned out okay.

Just remember though that child porn IS a serious thing...
I had a neighbor two years ago who was really cool until we found out he drugged his son, raped him anally and put it on the internet, then some cops showed up at his house, one of his daughters (who we think also got raped) suicided and a lot of creepy shit happened.

He isn't in jail yet though because they don't have sufficient evidence that it was his computer, I think the news report is gonna come out next month I'm not sure.

At 9/27/10 02:15 PM, FurryDemon wrote: Just remember though that child porn IS a serious thing...
I had a neighbor two years ago who was really cool until we found out he drugged his son, raped him anally and put it on the internet, then some cops showed up at his house, one of his daughters (who we think also got raped) suicided and a lot of creepy shit happened.

He isn't in jail yet though because they don't have sufficient evidence that it was his computer, I think the news report is gonna come out next month I'm not sure.

Dude, if you think you've seen it bad you should see how shit awful it is where I live, the even more shit thing is that since it's all privacy involved most pedophiles are REALLY good at covering it up, and police like to make people believe they are getting it all under control when they can't really do shit.