At 5/28/10 12:40 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote: I may be mistaken, but I'm sold the impression that theres more money to be made scoring games, music, commercials then there is in selling just strictly listening music.

Well of course, but finding the opportunities to make $$ in those areas are much more difficult and inconsistent.

At 5/28/10 07:12 PM, S3C wrote:

At 5/28/10 12:40 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote: I may be mistaken, but I'm sold the impression that theres more money to be made scoring games, music, commercials then there is in selling just strictly listening music.

Well of course, but finding the opportunities to make $$ in those areas are much more difficult and inconsistent.

Which is mildly funny cause I've made like zilch off my 'personal' stuff, but about $1,000+ off contract stuff.

Thanks guys, all this information has been helpful.

At 5/30/10 12:33 AM, MillsApparatus wrote: Without a degree from a prestigious conservatory a career in music is nothing but a pipe dream, no one can make it without one, and it's a prerequisite for any professional band, orchestra or ensemble.

Never bother with music in any school that has no recognition on a national scale, you'll be laughed out of a career in seconds, same if you go to a half-assed school like Berklee and just know how to wank a lot on your instrument with no true musicianship or talent. Those are the places to ignore.

Get your degree, then you can start thinking about becoming a professional, but you'll NEVER get it without at least a Bachelors in Music, and most won't hire you unless you have a graduates.

Well, I'm going to college for classical guitar performance at IPFW, and me or my family would have absolutely zero chance to get the kind of money required to go to Julliard or any prestigious school like that. Never attending a music class in school until college is also probably a turn off, right?

The other things are no problem.

At 5/25/10 05:51 PM, Zero123Music wrote: tunecore is a good site for selling music independantly - though you'll wanna get exposure and recognition before trying to sell

This is very true. My friend Erik isn't a great player but he makes a lot of bread fixing equipment, he does all my set ups and stuff for me.

At 5/30/10 12:33 AM, MillsApparatus wrote: You need a music degree first off. A Bachelor's in Music is mandatory to get into professional music fields such as education, orchestras, TV/film, and anything. It's a career, and requires the education any other career would, you can't just sell records and get somewhere, you need the knowledge of classical theory and counterpoint/fugue, arranging, technical skills, writing skills, artistic knowledge in other art forms such as paintings (don't have to paint, just know how to analyze and appreciate other art forms).

Most important of all a strong ability to memorize a variety of different songs spanning each of the artistic periods: Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist, Modernist, and Post-Modern (which includes showtunes, jazz, and rock/pop).

Without a degree from a prestigious conservatory a career in music is nothing but a pipe dream, no one can make it without one, and it's a prerequisite for any professional band, orchestra or ensemble.

Learn the literature for your instrument inside and out and apply to Juilliard, Jacobs School of Music, Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto, Cleveland Institute of Music, or the music departments of respected and known schools like the University of California (where I studied), Yale, Harvard, or the music department of Florida State University.

Never bother with music in any school that has no recognition on a national scale, you'll be laughed out of a career in seconds, same if you go to a half-assed school like Berklee and just know how to wank a lot on your instrument with no true musicianship or talent. Those are the places to ignore.

Get your degree, then you can start thinking about becoming a professional, but you'll NEVER get it without at least a Bachelors in Music, and most won't hire you unless you have a graduates.

I am sorry, I don't mean to call you out or piss you off, but this is the most pretentious statement I have ever read. First off, I know plenty of guys, who have worked all their lives or are currently in the music industry who don't have degrees at all, or big name schools. Please understand that if you go to an audition and show them a piece of paper, it doesn't mean shit if you cannot play. where as if you go with no piece of paper, and can play your balls off, you are very likely to get a job. THE ONLY field in which you absolutely need a degree is Public school music education (please note you can teach privately (Catholic schools, private schools, colleges, 1 on 1 students, clinics etc) without a degree, Ultimately not having a degree of any sort, may make a difference in your income on those fields, but as far as getting in the door, Not as big a difficulty as it may seem. As for " knowledge of classical theory and counterpoint/fugue, arranging, technical skills, writing skills, artistic knowledge in other art forms such as paintings (don't have to paint, just know how to analyze and appreciate other art forms)."
Though, none of this stuff could hurt, again it is still not needed. Classical music theory and counterpuntual skills I have found to be essentially useless as a commercial skill. As long as you have an good understanding of harmony, you are fine. There are many different methods of organizing music, and no one way is right or wrong. the best thing you can do is take in many other peoples ideas and see how you personally can apply them, but again. Not necessarily a requirement.

"Without a degree from a prestigious conservatory a career in music is nothing but a pipe dream,"

J.S. Bach - Never possessed a legitimate degree, Mozart learned to play from his father, Paul Mcartney studied spanish and Latin at Liverpool institute, Bucky Pizzareli took a few classes but never got a degree, Esperanza Spalding got a GED began a successful career and then obtained a degree, Charles Mingus Studied with H. Rheinshagen, Miles Davis Dropped out of Juliard, Stevie Wonder had his first hit at age 13, and I personally know many many people who do not have degrees or ANY kind and are working making music. Keep in mind, for the price of a degree, you can study privately with any teacher at most universities for a probably a decade especially when you think of how much a degree from The Manhattan school, Berklee, Five towns, the Manhattan School, Eastman, or Krane costs.

"Never bother with music in any school that has no recognition on a national scale, you'll be laughed out of a career in seconds" - This is an Outright lie. I can tell you, the guys I have met who go around telling everyone how great of a musician they are because of what school they went to and the names of who they studied with, tend to not only suck, but also be assholes. You can go pay for a degree from wherever you want, or you can just study by yourself or with a private teacher, and in the end, the only thing that is going to make an ounce of difference is your individual work ethic.

"Get your degree, then you can start thinking about becoming a professional, but you'll NEVER get it without at least a Bachelors in Music, and most won't hire you unless you have a graduates." What are you even talking about? who is this "most" you speak of? You obviously aren't playing the same 5 -6 nights a week at the same musicals, clubs, weddings, corporate events, private parties, bars, cruise ships, tours, chambers, and concert halls that I am. Again, I maybe repeating myself at this point but most gigs come from playing out a lot, and networking with other musicians. When your auditioning, its more important that you can play than what school you went to or if you got a degree.

apparatus, If I was you, I would start rethinking about my personal mantra. Look at the professor who is filling you up with this propaganda and ask your self, "is he an asshole? is he really working outside of school? is he making me an asshole as well?" I mean really? how old are you? how long have you been working in this business?

agreed with Death2Whity.

I don't know what kind of music job MillsApparatus was thinking of, but there are tons of pro musicians without degrees. You think every member of a regular ol' rock band has a music degree? Probably not, they just happen to be good and play together well.

And many electronic producers don't have degrees in music. As an example, Camo & Krooked began releasing stuff professionally before they even went to university.

It's all based on talent, and a money-making opportunity for labels. If a label were to find some schmuck on the street who had buttloads of talent without a degree, they'd sign him because they could make money from him. That's all.

lol, dont listen to Mills. he's just trolling (the best one yet).

Performance
Composition
Teaching
Mastering
Mixing
Sound Design
Recording

Fall in love with one, or more then one, and read every book or web page article you can find that's even close to relevant. That's a start.

Sounds like you're audio journey is leaning towards the composition path. My suggestion is, unless you're stuck deciding a college major at a music school this year or something, to invest in all of them.

At 6/2/10 02:25 PM, LogicalDefiance wrote: Performance
Composition
Teaching
Mastering
Mixing
Sound Design
Recording

Fall in love with one, or more then one, and read every book or web page article you can find that's even close to relevant. That's a start.

Sounds like you're audio journey is leaning towards the composition path. My suggestion is, unless you're stuck deciding a college major at a music school this year or something, to invest in all of them.

I'd love to know how to mix/master, but everytime I ask or google I get "just play around with it" or "there are no rules, do what sounds good".

I recently started giving lessons and preforming, so I guess that's a start.

At 6/2/10 08:04 PM, Darkmaster603 wrote: I'd love to know how to mix/master, but everytime I ask or google I get "just play around with it" or "there are no rules, do what sounds good".

There are some basics, and concepts that are strong beginning points, but pending on the music being made, things will be done a certain way to acomodate. Trick is figuring out what lines up with what. If you'd like you can PM me sometime and I'll maybe sprinkle some knowledge onto you. Maybe not. :S

At 6/2/10 08:42 PM, MillsApparatus wrote: I've been in the business since I was 9, I know what I'm talking about. I am a prodigy and have been performing for longer than you have by a long shot and at a much higher quality. No client I've ever had has wanted to work or hire me without proof of a degree.

Not intending to antagonize, but you have 5 posts and not an awful lot of credit present on this website. While I don't contest anything you stated, there are a lot of glimmering assertions here that have the appearance of being uber-snobtastic and contrasting to the other users present here. Make sure what you say is in terms that anyone can understand and have clear, concise support.

At 5/30/10 12:33 AM, MillsApparatus wrote: You need a music degree first off. A Bachelor's in Music is mandatory to get into professional music fields such as education, orchestras, TV/film, and anything.

Whoa!!!! Fail statement alert!!!

It's a career, and requires the education any other career would, you can't just sell records and get somewhere, you need the knowledge of classical theory and counterpoint/fugue, arranging, technical skills, writing skills, artistic knowledge in other art forms such as paintings (don't have to paint, just know how to analyze and appreciate other art forms).

OH NOES!!!! FAIL STATEMENT ALERT TWO!!!!

Most important of all a strong ability to memorize a variety of different songs spanning each of the artistic periods: Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist, Modernist, and Post-Modern (which includes showtunes, jazz, and rock/pop).

Yea, because making rock/metal/reggae/latin/electro/nearly all other forms of popular music today, require knowledge on the old music forms you mentioned above. I'm sure most successful pop/rock/etc artists would exclaim that their success was derived from a strong knowledge on Baroque and Impressionist styles.

Without a degree from a prestigious conservatory a career in music is nothing but a pipe dream, no one can make it without one, and it's a prerequisite for any professional band, orchestra or ensemble.

Fail statement #3.

Learn the literature for your instrument inside and out and apply to Juilliard, Jacobs School of Music, Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto, Cleveland Institute of Music, or the music departments of respected and known schools like the University of California (where I studied), Yale, Harvard, or the music department of Florida State University.

Because those conservatories all have monopolies on all the great ideas on how to make music.

Never bother with music in any school that has no recognition on a national scale,

Oh go fuck yourself. Seriously, this is nothing more than you being an elitist ass and looking down your nose at everyone here.

you'll be laughed out of a career in seconds, same if you go to a half-assed school like Berklee and just know how to wank a lot on your instrument with no true musicianship or talent. Those are the places to ignore.

I went to OU for audio production. that wasn't on your list. Then yet again, it was in the top five in the country for my field when I went there, and I studied under Eddie Ashworth. Does that mean I'm instantly good? No. Or is my University of choice not up to par with your standards? Therefore I must obviously suck and should give up on music in life.

Getting into a great university is great without a doubt. But to limit your list to those you mentioned is moronic. And don't think for a second you can't make a career in music without a degree from those schools, or without a degree period. Because you can.

Get your degree, then you can start thinking about becoming a professional, but you'll NEVER get it without at least a Bachelors in Music, and most won't hire you unless you have a graduates.

Fail. This is nothing more than a pretentious cock trying to glorify his own achievements of getting a musical degree. Seriously, you make the rest of us who went to school for music/audio degrees look both arrogant and foolish.

The truth of the matter is making it in the music industry is more about WHO you know than WHAT you know. True skill is not always the main factor involved in who gets signed. Why? Because of the emergence and dominance of the DAW.

Wrong notes can be fixed, out of tune sections can be tuned in session, and there are limitless takes that can be made for any single situation. Take Dragonforce's song Through the Fire and Flames. It has wicked solos and riffs all over the place, making one think they are some of the best guitarists on the planet. Sadly, they recorded at half speed and then doubled the tempo within the DAW in order to be able to make the song perfect. If you've seen them live you know they can't play for shit.

What does this mean? It means knowledge and skill are becoming useless. Another example for you, the guitar parts for the entire Beatles' White album was recreated by a single note played into Pro-Tools. The entire album was recreated from a note. I bet that if I really tried, (And had enough money) I could pay someone to make me a great album from one note. I mean shit, if you can make the white album from one note the possibilities are endless right?!

Also, nearly all vocalists don't even perform live anymore. They simply dance and lip sing to pre-recorded "live" versions of their album songs. Which means that nobody has to be able to sing on pitch anymore. The DAW can pitch correct anything, and there are no consequences because the artists never actually perform live. Once again, you don't really need an education for that do ya? Nope, ya just have to look pretty and have a connection in the industry.

As for getting an education, it's useless in so many cases. Utterly useless because once again it's WHO you know and not WHAT you know. Granted it can help to have a degree, but only if you have a connection in the first place. Now getting your degree can help you to write more intelligent music. It can open up new possibilities to you as an artist. But truthfully in today's digital age it's far more important to be pretty or know someone than it is to be musically gifted or intelligent. Especially in the pop scene.

To be frank your post reeks of nooby elitism. You went to some college and got a degree with music, and by doing so you became full of yourself and a pretentious cock. Which is fine, but that isn't good enough for you. You actually have to go an pollute people's minds with the garbage you said above, which to be quite honest is unacceptable.

I can honestly say I'm embarrassed for both you and myself because of your post. Because as someone who went to school for music and audio production, I find myself to be sort of lumped into the category you are describing. And I want nothing to do with that elitist mindset.

This is probably the biggest fail post I've seen on Newgrounds to date.

It's actually quite funny Gravey. If you go listen to his "songs" , he sucks completely if he has gone to the 'oh so big music colleges'.

And this is copy paste qoute from one of his descriptions: "Beginning with a brass voluntary that praises my skill, achievements and incredibly talent and genius mind, it moves into a traditional house beat to get your ass shaking on the dance floor.

I continue to amaze myself, special thanks to me, and also to my nearly 400 fans on Newgrounds."

What a dumbass.

Gravey, that's the most impressive tirade I've seen in a while :)

He said they RECREATED the white album with protools.

At 6/2/10 10:30 PM, MillsApparatus wrote:

:Failed and noted.

At 6/2/10 10:39 PM, Darkmaster603 wrote: He said they RECREATED the white album with protools.

At 6/2/10 10:30 PM, MillsApparatus wrote:

Failed and noted.

Wow, pretty fail right there. I need to learn how to forum.

I think you understand what I was getting at.

And Gravey, that was boner inducing

At 6/2/10 10:30 PM, MillsApparatus wrote:

The Beatle's recorded on reel to reel tapes, there was no multitrack recording.

Lol you dolt, the white album was recorded on 8 track tape.

Fuckin multitrack, how does that work?

Going Pro

My childhood friends' dad and I bumped into each other and he invited me to go checkout the studio he works in. He's a phenom with a ton of instruments and has scored several (very random) films. I'm rather excited and hoping something blooms from this. :)

At 6/2/10 11:09 PM, InvisibleObserver wrote: Going Pro

My childhood friends' dad and I bumped into each other and he invited me to go checkout the studio he works in. He's a phenom with a ton of instruments and has scored several (very random) films. I'm rather excited and hoping something blooms from this. :)

It's always handy to have contacts!

I'm trying to figure out how I could use my position in the film industry to my advantage regarding audio related work. I am in contact with all the major distributors (paramount, fox, sony, roadshow, unviersal etc) on a daily basis and we work very closely, but I don't know where to go from there lol. Turn up to work with a demo cd? I dunno...smacks of desparation to me :[

It's better to regret doing something then doing nothing

Unless it's murder or rape.

At 6/2/10 11:17 PM, jarrydn wrote: I'm trying to figure out how I could use my position in the film industry to my advantage regarding audio related work. I am in contact with all the major distributors (paramount, fox, sony, roadshow, unviersal etc) on a daily basis and we work very closely, but I don't know where to go from there lol. Turn up to work with a demo cd? I dunno...smacks of desparation to me :[

Wedge yourself into a party or event where you DJ or something and play your own shit or something. :S

At 6/3/10 12:21 AM, InvisibleObserver wrote: Wedge yourself into a party or event where you DJ or something and play your own shit or something. :S

At your work that is. Some sort of event comes up, volunteer to be entertainment.

I meant to include that, but thinking the thought of typing it just never turned into actually typing it.

Going Pro

Before the whole Mills incident, there was an actual question, so here's my answer!

Make sure you have a job as you're trying to build up a following. If you do instrumental and or vocal work, try to get some local gigs and build from there. Then try to find maybe a local studio that will allow you to record a couple songs at a price and start sending demos to either big or indie lables. I don't quite know what to say about electronic music since it seems to be much harder to stand out and really get many places with it since SO many people can and are doing it. I dunno, it's either a thing of luck that you get noticed or a thing of time and patience.

At 6/3/10 12:47 AM, InvisibleObserver wrote:

I meant to include that, but thinking the thought of typing it just never turned into actually typing it.

I manage a warehouse. It's just me and another guy, and three people from paramount upstairs :P

The rest of my industry correspondence is via emails or telephone.

Lol I could put my tunes on the answering machine i suppose :P

At 6/2/10 10:30 PM, MillsApparatus wrote:

Too bad Pro Tools didn't exist back then. The first software that became PT was made in 1984 and was called Sound Designer. The Beatle's recorded on reel to reel tapes, there was no multitrack recording and every take was made live by every member of the band at once like a live performance. If you actually did study anything in school you'd know a simple fact about hte history of audio engineering. Failed and noted.

I said RECREATED toolbag. I never said the original White Album was recorded on Pro Tools. Maybe you should pay attention more to what I wrote.

Also, I put the word recreated in bold, italics, and underlined font so you could see it clearly this time.

At 6/2/10 10:35 PM, jarrydn wrote: Gravey, that's the most impressive tirade I've seen in a while :)

Thanks. :-P

There are some things that really rub me the wrong way. Morons making pretentious comments about stuff they know nothing about would be one of them. I'd say MillsApparatus is a prime example of just that sort of thing.

At 6/3/10 08:49 AM, Gravey wrote: I said RECREATED toolbag. I never said the original White Album was recorded on Pro Tools. Maybe you should pay attention more to what I wrote.

Also, I put the word recreated in bold, italics, and underlined font so you could see it clearly this time.

Wat, i cant red it, yoo ned to mak it mor obvius fur teh dumb lak meh! =P

There are some things that really rub me the wrong way. Morons making pretentious comments about stuff they know nothing about would be one of them. I'd say MillsApparatus is a prime example of just that sort of thing.

That just mean you have some sort of opinion for things of a musical sense, and you express it with firey rage and maybe a little frosting. Either that or i'm just hungry lol

Basically what it all really comes down to is hard work. if your willing to work, you'll find your niche

Obviously it takes a lot of talent, but also a really good grasp of both production and the genre you're trying to go 'pro' with. Notice that 99.9% of musicians stay within their genre (or very closely related genres, or mash-up genres based in their specialized one) because that way you can get optimally specialized at making that type of music and it's best for building a fan base. Then it's all about getting your music out and getting connections in the music scene/industry. From their, all it takes is devotion, hard work, and constant improvement/updating of your production skills. If you're lucky or good enough, eventually you'll get big.

Another thing you have to consider is that many electronic musicians start out in some other dimension of the music scene, like as DJ's or sound guys, and use the connections and tools from that to really build up their music career.