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DeftAndEvil
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-01 14:54:04 Reply

At 4/1/12 11:06 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: Hey guys, I've got a bit of a problem. My Dutch friend has an English teacher (who is also Dutch) and occasionally my friend shows me some of his assignments with the corrections of his teacher. Now, a lot of these corrections feel unnecessary to me and others just sound all-out wrong, making me doubt the legitimacy of his teacher. Mind checking to see which of these corrections don't make any sense or are unnecessary?

These corrections seem way too pedantic, but they are all pretty much "right." The teacher seems to refining your friends word choice, that is, reducing the amount of words. Each sentence has one or two less words, words that are really quite unnecessary (like "really" and "quite" :D). Also, the corrections just emend each sentences into proper English. However, some, like number nine, are technically correct, but unclear (#9 has a dangling modifier). Some, like #3, are too correct (I doubt a character would talk like that).


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-01 19:29:28 Reply

At 4/1/12 02:54 PM, DeftAndEvil wrote: Some, like #3, are too correct (I doubt a character would talk like that).

Ina formal letter, they should, but you can never guarantee it.

Personally, if someone tried using corrections 7 and 8, I think I would correct them back to the original, that your friend wrote. If your friend's teacher wishes to contact me, they can feel free to. I feel that I speak better English than a majority of the people in my country, so I would be happy to discuss it.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 04:10:51 Reply

Well, my friend told me that he gets graded down for these corrections, and to me they look more like what rolls off more nicely in the teacher's tongue, not actual corrections of mistakes.

In the first, for example, I didn't see why he took away the definite article since the summer camp in question was mentioned before in the essay. In the fifth I didn't see why he changed it from the infinitive to the gerund when the verb "prefer" takes both. The eighth feels entirely wrong as well (I always thought you say in schools but at school, not at schools). And so on...


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 05:46:09 Reply

At 4/2/12 04:10 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: Well, my friend told me that he gets graded down for these corrections, and to me they look more like what rolls off more nicely in the teacher's tongue, not actual corrections of mistakes.

Ah, but the main problem here seems to be that the teacher takes the view that they are right, to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. Sadly, this is a common delusion, shared by many teachers.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 07:00:45 Reply

At 3/30/12 11:18 PM, Sharu wrote: As Coop said, the numbers refer to the number of replies; if a thread has just been posted, then there are no replies and it would say zero. I don't know about the pluses, but I can see it being used elsewhere.

Captain obvious strikes again!
I've never seen the +0 been used on any other forum than Newgrounds, and I've visited a few. It simply doesn't make any rational or logical sense, since you could just as well say 0.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 08:25:29 Reply

At 4/2/12 07:00 AM, yuirick wrote:
Captain obvious strikes again!
I've never seen the +0 been used on any other forum than Newgrounds, and I've visited a few. It simply doesn't make any rational or logical sense, since you could just as well say 0.

Excuse me, but do I know you? No? Didn't think so.
In case you didn't actually finish reading my post, I never said it made any sense. I would say, however, that's its in no way as odd as you're making it out to me.

Psh, haters gonna hate.

At 4/2/12 04:10 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: Well, my friend told me that he gets graded down for these corrections, and to me they look more like what rolls off more nicely in the teacher's tongue, not actual corrections of mistakes.

Anyway, to be constructive, I'd say that even though the teacher is right (I think he/she is wrong about #6, but that's another matter), he/she shouldn't take points off because your friend is also right. Since that teacher thinks your friend is wrong, the discrepancies are so small that any points that the teacher takes off shouldn't really amount to much. If friend is getting severely graded down because of these corrections, then I'd suggest he/she talk with his/her teacher about that.


"there is no true end to any fairy-tale"~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 14:24:52 Reply

At 4/2/12 07:00 AM, yuirick wrote:
At 3/30/12 11:18 PM, Sharu wrote: As Coop said, the numbers refer to the number of replies;
Captain obvious strikes again!

Thank you, we don't need to get personal here - we're just glad of the activity. Please leave the ego at the door.

At 4/2/12 08:25 AM, Sharu wrote: Psh, haters gonna hate.

You're both relatively new here, with only a handful of posts to your name, so I'll ask you both politely to pack it in. I'm enjoying the discussion here, as it is.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-02 16:29:19 Reply

At 4/2/12 02:24 PM, Coop wrote:
You're both relatively new here, with only a handful of posts to your name, so I'll ask you both politely to pack it in. I'm enjoying the discussion here, as it is.

Of course. Sorry if I troubled the waters; I only meant to address a point. Politeness and civility are really all I ask if someone is going to criticize me, so thank you. Anyway, back to the discussion.


"there is no true end to any fairy-tale"~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-03 01:49:36 Reply

At 4/1/12 11:06 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: 1.)
Original: "Do you mind filling me in on when you'll be attending the summer camp?"
Correction: "Do you mind filling me in on when you'll be attending summer camp?"

They're both acceptable, taking out the "the" makes it a little less formal, but they're still overly formal for the question if you're trying to emulate how a native speaker would say it.

2.)
Original: "According to the photos I've seen, reefs are full of vibrant colours, although I've always wanted to see one up close."
Correction: "According to the photos I've seen, reefs have vibrant colours, and I've always wanted to see one up close."

I actually think the original is better because it emphasizes that the photos don't truly capture the reefs. The teacher didn't correct the sentence he changed the meaning.

3.)
Original: "I am writing to you on account of an advertisement in The Sunday Times."
Correction: "I am writing to you with reference to your advertisement in The Sunday Times."

The correction is actually better in this case although it should be in reference

4.)
Original: "Learning the language in England seems marvellous to me and my parents are very impressed with the offers your school made in the advertisement."
Correction: "Learning the language in England seems marvellous to me and my parents are very impressed with what your school has offered in the advertisement."

No one would every speak that way but either are correct. Personally I put a comma before the coordinating conjunction between independent clauses, but that's a debatable stylistic choice.

5.)
Original: "I prefer to work in small groups."
Correction: "I prefer working in small groups."

They're both fine.

6.)
Original: "The restaurant specialises in pizza and pasta."
Correction: "The restaurant specialises in pizzas and pastas."

Technically both are fine, but no one would every use the second one. Go with the

7.)
Original: "The food is of great quality."
Correction: "The food is of a great quality."

Once again they're both correct, but the correction flows a little better.

8.)
Original: "Bullying is common in schools."
Correction: "Bullying is common at schools."

Both fine

9.)
Original: "If the bullying really gets out of hand you should warn an adult who should put an end to it immediately."
Correction: "If the bullying really gets out of hand you should warn an adult who should put an end to it, immediately."

Immediately isn't an adverb that always requires comma. It comes down to preference so either way is correct, but I generally prefer them without the comma unless it requires a special emphasis. I think this sentence is better off without it.

10.)
Original: "I would like to know whether or not there are any differences in price between August and July."
Correction: "I would like to know whether or not there are any differences in the price between August and July."

This is the teacher being nitpicky. The first is fine for anything other than formal writing.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-03 22:23:17 Reply

You can get mad at me for trying to "bump" a subject already addressed in this topic recently, but I don't think the thought of making a "how-to" page for self-publishing was adequately considered. But then again, is that really something to bring up on Newgrounds? I know one would be useful to me and many others, but is this the place for one?


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-04 01:50:36 Reply

At 4/2/12 05:46 AM, Coop wrote:
At 4/2/12 04:10 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: Well, my friend told me that he gets graded down for these corrections, and to me they look more like what rolls off more nicely in the teacher's tongue, not actual corrections of mistakes.
Ah, but the main problem here seems to be that the teacher takes the view that they are right, to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. Sadly, this is a common delusion, shared by many teachers.

Luckily, I've never had a teacher like this. All my English teachers/professors valued critical analysis for analytical essays, and development/style for narrative essays. Unless you had a bunch of bullshit typos, they never marked down stuff like this (although they usually circled it).


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-04 02:07:36 Reply

At 4/2/12 07:00 AM, yuirick wrote:
Captain obvious strikes again!
I've never seen the +0 been used on any other forum than Newgrounds, and I've visited a few. It simply doesn't make any rational or logical sense, since you could just as well say 0.

If it's so obvious, why can't you grasp that +0 is read "plus zero" which is not the semantic equivalent of "zero" (if you wanna get technical). This is a Writing Forum, not a math forum; you would say the sentence "All you boys/girls" as "all you boys slash girls" not "all you boys over girls" or "all you boys divided by girls."

At 4/2/12 02:24 PM, Coop wrote:

You're both relatively new here, with only a handful of posts to your name, so I'll ask you both politely to pack it in. I'm enjoying the discussion here, as it is.

Well, I've never seen yuirick in the Writing Forum save for this little repartee. But, I will say that Sharu has been here for a while, and I consider him an almost-regular. I'm pretty sure I've seen him in the Writing Contests, and I definitely remember him from both Weekly Writing Exercises, and the Anthology. He's one of us, and I think he should not be treated so condescendingly (although I feel weird for defending him).

I'll admit that saying +0 posts could have been written as 0 replies, but, I'll also admit that +0 posts is an acceptable way of writing it (lol). I don't think it got out of hand until we resorted to insults. Eh, I don't find the discussion of teachers and self-publishing particularly stimulating, but I am feeling pretty chippy since no one has posted a serious attempt at writing in a while.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-05 09:58:08 Reply

At 4/2/12 04:29 PM, Sharu wrote:
At 4/2/12 02:24 PM, Coop wrote: You're both relatively new here, with only a handful of posts to your name, so I'll ask you both politely to pack it in. I'm enjoying the discussion here, as it is.
Of course. Sorry if I troubled the waters; I only meant to address a point. Politeness and civility are really all I ask if someone is going to criticize me, so thank you. Anyway, back to the discussion.

I'm an easy going mod on here, to be honest. most of my locks and modding actions take place in General these days and that's kind of how I like it.

At 4/3/12 10:23 PM, Anabioo wrote: You can get mad at me for trying to "bump" a subject already addressed in this topic recently,

Not really, that's what a lounge is for - discussion, calling back to conversations from days ago and the like. Think of it as a club for writers to socialise in. The cauldron where we decide how to take forward the forum, as a group.

but I don't think the thought of making a "how-to" page for self-publishing was adequately considered. But then again, is that really something to bring up on Newgrounds? I know one would be useful to me and many others, but is this the place for one?

I think it is, since there are users out there that have the goal of becoming published. They may require a lot more work to get their project to that final "ready" stage, but why not show them what it would take to get published? That way, they can stop fooling themselves that it's easy to be a writer, professionally, or even semi-professionally.

At 4/4/12 02:07 AM, DeftAndEvil wrote: but I am feeling pretty chippy since no one has posted a serious attempt at writing in a while.

I'm about to post a book review, if that will make you feel better. Then I might work on a preview of the baseball season and launch a blog, something that is now running one year behind schedule...


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-05 12:40:58 Reply

well i just got finished with thhe other chaotic kitten, and you can look at it is you wanna. But i was thinking you know. Writing is half of what goes into flash.

Lol i messed up and tried to post my story as a project and now i dont know how to erase it from the project system... I think i might leave it as a badge of honour.

I was up until 5 30 this morning finishing it today. My huband was like "come to bed, come to bed" and I was like "no, no, I'm almost finished...."

And almost finished turned into 3 more hours and then 5 30 in the morning.

I cant be the only one to have ever done that.... hopefully.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-07 14:25:57 Reply

Thought I'd stop by and say that it's my birthday today - shameless plug, but there is a thread in General about it, if you want to stop by and say "hi" or similar.

I've only had three books this time, but given that they are RP books, they can lead to both much enjoyment and much more creativity. Exalted is a great game for out of this world moves.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-07 20:12:13 Reply

At 4/5/12 12:40 PM, warror wrote: And almost finished turned into 3 more hours and then 5 30 in the morning.

I cant be the only one to have ever done that.... hopefully.

While I don't have a husband telling me to turn in, I've definitely been in the same boat; it's really a problem for any project that you get wrapped up in.

At 4/7/12 02:25 PM, Coop wrote: Thought I'd stop by and say that it's my birthday today - shameless plug, but there is a thread in General about it, if you want to stop by and say "hi" or similar.

Happy Birthday! (I'm too lazy to go to General)


"there is no true end to any fairy-tale"~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-10 17:13:54 Reply

I... Was actually just joking. Well, a joke isn't very funny (to anyone but me, I honestly laughed when I saw the responses) when people take it too seriously. Since my aim isn't to troll, I will not continue with that style of jokes, but... Your reaction is a bit surprising/hillarious to me.
Have a beer, look out the window, listen to le birds and enjoy life mateys. :P

At 4/2/12 08:25 AM, Sharu wrote:
At 4/2/12 07:00 AM, yuirick wrote:
Captain obvious strikes again!
I've never seen the +0 been used on any other forum than Newgrounds, and I've visited a few. It simply doesn't make any rational or logical sense, since you could just as well say 0.
Excuse me, but do I know you? No? Didn't think so.
In case you didn't actually finish reading my post, I never said it made any sense. I would say, however, that's its in no way as odd as you're making it out to me.

Psh, haters gonna hate.

I know. That's exactly why I called ye a captain obvious. You stated the obvious, then told you didn't know anything. See it now?

Anyhow, didn't mean any offense mate. :)

At 3/30/12 11:18 PM, Sharu wrote: As Coop said, the numbers refer to the number of replies;
Captain obvious strikes again!
Thank you, we don't need to get personal here - we're just glad of the activity. Please leave the ego at the door.

The ego? o_o';
Wouldn't that be like... 'I'm so baws, look at me!'? I dunno.

At 4/4/12 02:07 AM, DeftAndEvil wrote:
At 4/2/12 07:00 AM, yuirick wrote:
Captain obvious strikes again!
I've never seen the +0 been used on any other forum than Newgrounds, and I've visited a few. It simply doesn't make any rational or logical sense, since you could just as well say 0.
If it's so obvious, why can't you grasp that +0 is read "plus zero" which is not the semantic equivalent of "zero" (if you wanna get technical). This is a Writing Forum, not a math forum; you would say the sentence "All you boys/girls" as "all you boys slash girls" not "all you boys over girls" or "all you boys divided by girls."

Let me tell you a little story, which is the reason for my curiosity. Scientists put 5 monkeys in a cage. They put a ladder, and hung a banana in the roof, which could be reached by the ladder. Every-time somebody climbed the ladder, there would be rain. So the monkeys started beating up those who tried to go up the ladder. Then, they swapped every monkey out, but one at a time. So a monkey would be transfered out once every couple of days. Then, in the end, none of the monkeys knew why they were beating up each-other up when they went up the stairs, only that it was what they did.

"Cus' that's how we do it around here"
What I want to know, is if it's an actual literary rule, or just something you guys came up with. This is not meant as an offense, just an act of curiosity.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-11 11:35:24 Reply

At 4/10/12 05:13 PM, yuirick wrote:
Let me tell you a little story, which is the reason for my curiosity. Scientists put 5 monkeys in a cage. They put a ladder, and hung a banana in the roof, which could be reached by the ladder. Every-time somebody climbed the ladder, there would be rain. So the monkeys started beating up those who tried to go up the ladder. Then, they swapped every monkey out, but one at a time. So a monkey would be transfered out once every couple of days. Then, in the end, none of the monkeys knew why they were beating up each-other up when they went up the stairs, only that it was what they did.

"Cus' that's how we do it around here"
What I want to know, is if it's an actual literary rule, or just something you guys came up with. This is not meant as an offense, just an act of curiosity.

Once upon a time there was a curious barnacle who saw something on the internet and could never let it go. He was so curious that everyone died. The end.

Anyway, there haven't been any real attempts at creative writing in the forum lately. I think people are just practicing, though.

Also anyway, wasn't there a Pico Day writing contest? I know that there wouldn't be any cash prizes, but Pico Day is coming up and I haven't seen the Pico Day Writing thread.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-11 22:00:10 Reply

At 4/11/12 11:35 AM, DeftAndEvil wrote: Also anyway, wasn't there a Pico Day writing contest? I know that there wouldn't be any cash prizes, but Pico Day is coming up and I haven't seen the Pico Day Writing thread.

Mmmmmmm... writing contest. I eagerly await your arrival.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-12 09:18:22 Reply

At 4/7/12 08:12 PM, Sharu wrote:
At 4/7/12 02:25 PM, Coop wrote: Thought I'd stop by and say that it's my birthday today - shameless plug, but there is a thread in General about it, if you want to stop by and say "hi" or similar.
Happy Birthday! (I'm too lazy to go to General)

You could have just searched "Coop" on the BBS and my annual Birthday thread would be there for all to see.

At 4/11/12 11:35 AM, DeftAndEvil wrote: Anyway, there haven't been any real attempts at creative writing in the forum lately. I think people are just practicing, though.

No real time to write, I'm afraid. I want to, I just can't find the time to, what with the cricket season coming up and me chasing around for people to play for me.

Also anyway, wasn't there a Pico Day writing contest? I know that there wouldn't be any cash prizes, but Pico Day is coming up and I haven't seen the Pico Day Writing thread.

I've not heard of one, but it might be down to the general lack of interest in previous contests. Getting judges was ridiculously difficult and I think as far as that went, we did suck on that end.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-13 14:17:31 Reply

Hrm, sorry guys. I honestly, honestly forgot all about what I was working. Unfortunately unemployment isn't treating me as well as I thought it would. I know there's no rush, just wanted to let you know I remembered, and I'll get everything posted up just as soon as possible.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-14 18:13:46 Reply

At 4/13/12 02:17 PM, Deathcon7 wrote: Hrm, sorry guys. I honestly, honestly forgot all about what I was working.

It happens from time to time.

Unfortunately unemployment isn't treating me as well as I thought it would.

That never does - you really need to knuckle down and grab a hold of yourself, to self motivate. I know it's a real bitch, because there's nothing like the pressure of expectation from work at home. Stick with it, you;ll get through it.

I know there's no rush, just wanted to let you know I remembered, and I'll get everything posted up just as soon as possible.

Awesome.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-16 18:34:18 Reply

At 4/11/12 11:35 AM, DeftAndEvil wrote:
Once upon a time there was a curious barnacle who saw something on the internet and could never let it go. He was so curious that everyone died. The end.

Anyway, there haven't been any real attempts at creative writing in the forum lately. I think people are just practicing, though.

Also anyway, wasn't there a Pico Day writing contest? I know that there wouldn't be any cash prizes, but Pico Day is coming up and I haven't seen the Pico Day Writing thread.

I sooooo want to be that barnacle!

I wrote a random story not too long ago. Was mostly just practice. Then I stopped by here at random. Being random makes it almost impossible to be bored. (Homemade) Fact.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-17 23:24:06 Reply

how many fan fiction writers do we have out there?

i just wanted to do fan fiction because i enjoyed a certain story and the characters in the sotry. basically a fan.

i do my own original stories also, but they tend to be more serieous, and new grounds has always been a place of fun for me.

i heard of something called cupcakes. some fan fic about the my little ponies and it just seemed to blow up. and it is down right gory. nothing wrong with that i just did not know there would be such a big fan base for turning a childrens story gory.

i guess its because it was so innocient or something which is funny.

but we could do that to any other story, which we probably have. Like hello kitty, hamtaro, seseme street(which has been done millions of times), etc.

i only make fun because i love. it sounds werid doesnt it? i guess it is just because sometimes i feel that i can make a better life for some of the characters then the original writers like a MISERY thing "oh why did you kill her" or total hell for others.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-24 11:33:48 Reply

So, quick question: how much science do you think one must first know before writing science fiction?


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-24 14:41:52 Reply

At 4/24/12 11:33 AM, Anabioo wrote: So, quick question: how much science do you think one must first know before writing science fiction?

None. That's the point, which is what I think is cool about sci-fi. There's not really a definition to sci-fi, though, so I think as long as you keep it realistic and don't blatantly disregard scientific laws, you're golden. It's much more about building the world, and describing how it can't exist now, but it might as science and technology advances.

(However, I guess you must know at least high school level science, especially physics and biology).


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-26 11:49:22 Reply

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-26 12:09:33 Reply

At 4/24/12 02:41 PM, DeftAndEvil wrote:
At 4/24/12 11:33 AM, Anabioo wrote: So, quick question: how much science do you think one must first know before writing science fiction?
None. That's the point, which is what I think is cool about sci-fi. There's not really a definition to sci-fi, though, so I think as long as you keep it realistic and don't blatantly disregard scientific laws, you're golden. It's much more about building the world, and describing how it can't exist now, but it might as science and technology advances.

(However, I guess you must know at least high school level science, especially physics and biology).

I have to slightly disagree with that. I think the boundary between fiction and sci-fi is becoming increasingly blurred, especially with novels like The Time Traveler's Wife, but for "true" sci-fi, you need to know a LOT of science. This is mostly things you take for granted though. If you're a sci-fi buff and you've read a lot of Heinlein or Niven, or any contemporary Sci-Fi, or if you're into Star Wars, Star Trek, or any other sci-fi media, you've pretty much got the genre staples. All you really need is a working knowledge of story writing.

If you want to write hard sci-fi, then you will need a very advanced knowledge of certain sciences, especially the ones that will influence your story. Some of the more predictive science fiction used/uses this approach. For the most part, those science fiction novels focus more on the science than the fiction.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-26 14:22:53 Reply

At 4/26/12 12:09 PM, Deathcon7 wrote:

That's true. I forgot about mofos like Asimov (a man I really admire) and Heinlein. But I guess it depends on the story and presentation. You can write a science-fiction story on time travel without a working knowledge of quantum mechanics (I'm not really sure what quantum mechanics is, or how it is related to time-travel; I assume it is?) If you've graduated high school (and have taken at least bio, physics, and some form of astronomy) and watched stuff like Star Trek and Blade Runner, and read some sci-fi (Asimov, Heinlein, as well as Wells and Verne), you are more than set for most sci-fi.

You're right though: the line between fantasy and sci-fi has been blurred like, as you've mentioned, the Time Traveler's Wife. I swear you have brought that book up more than once.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2012-04-26 21:27:22 Reply

At 4/26/12 02:22 PM, DeftAndEvil wrote: That's true. I forgot about mofos like Asimov (a man I really admire) and Heinlein. But I guess it depends on the story and presentation. You can write a science-fiction story on time travel without a working knowledge of quantum mechanics (I'm not really sure what quantum mechanics is, or how it is related to time-travel; I assume it is?) If you've graduated high school (and have taken at least bio, physics, and some form of astronomy) and watched stuff like Star Trek and Blade Runner, and read some sci-fi (Asimov, Heinlein, as well as Wells and Verne), you are more than set for most sci-fi.

I was just arguing for arguments sake. But thanks for expounding. Sci-fi is just a genre, and so long as you're intimate with the staples, you can get by. If you want to write something truly influential, however, I would argue a healthy knowledge of science is required. What should ultimately be kept in mind is that today people are more interested in character than milieu, so getting a BS in Quantum Mechanics just to write a story about it is a waste of time. If you wanted to become a researcher, however, that's a different story (no pun intended).

You're right though: the line between fantasy and sci-fi has been blurred like, as you've mentioned, the Time Traveler's Wife. I swear you have brought that book up more than once.

It's a story that has helped me broaden my expectations of modern fiction and should be a seminal example of what story telling should be right now. I doubt Audrey Niffenegger has a degree in time travel. But she had a story in mind, and had her characters, and it elevated what would have otherwise been a simple romance novel. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's my mainstay example for the point I'm trying to make.