At 2/14/13 01:38 AM, Ceratisa wrote:

At 2/14/13 12:32 AM, svenisgod wrote: Wow man.... haha fuck this thread. The points have been made i'm just glad the majority will vote for legalization. It shows progresswill happen.

Band Wagon makes things valid after all.

I don't think he was stating that this was a good reason for legalization, just saying how happy he was that his opinion seems to be in the majority. You seem to be a rational guy, please don't stoop to ad hominems.

At 2/14/13 02:09 AM, kryzyt wrote:

At 2/13/13 07:44 PM, Ceratisa wrote: SO kids can't smoke their parents pot? yeah okay. OH no people who are breaking the law don't like that it is illegal. They would like it to be legal so they can do it without breaking the law? I'm sure that can be said about many things.

My point in mentioning they don't like breaking the law is an attempt to state that they would likely avoid breaking the law (and giving it to children) if they could.

Decriminalization does the same thing, but back to the first point, do you really think parents who can't even keep guns away from their children can keep their drugs locked up? Wait we already know the answer to that, children take their parents prescribed drugs all the time.

I believe that we shouldn't assume the entire population of marijuana smokers are going to just leave this drug lying around for their children. I know its hard to believe, but many parents take active measures to prevent their children from doing things that can be harmful to a growing body. Again, I think the number of dealers willing to sell to children outnumber the number of adults who would give children access to the legal drug. Lets assume that 60% of adults would be willing to give drugs to kids, a wild figure. 99.9% of illegal dealers would be willing to sell to children.

No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.
In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of? I

How can you justify increasing how many minors are likely to be exposed to Marijuana?

You respond to my point that minors would not have as much access to the drug by stating they would have access to the drug.

See response above I guess.

At 2/14/13 02:23 AM, Ceratisa wrote: No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

It will be an issue, but the real question, that I'm willing to admit is a good question, is whether the amount of children who get pot from adults will outweigh the amount of children who already get pot from illegal sources.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.

Yes, but we also have destroyed their entire business model. Post-prohibition mobsters didn't stay in business by selling to children.

In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of?

I'm fine with forcing people to go to holed up dispenseries, guarded by armed guards and auto-turrets. Or having to have a doctors note and legal document stating they are capable of healthily taking the drug, and they are of sound mind not to sell to children, I don't really care, I just feel that illegal it presents a major driving force to illegal organizations trying to gain power in our country. I feel you are overstating the immorality of American adults, when compared to the immorality of common drug dealers. We have at this moment a demand for mind altering substances in our youth, this is the core of the issue you are presenting. I feel if we must use government resources to root out the problem of substance abuse in minors, perhaps it would be better to spend those resources in hiring proper counseling and education as to what the negative merits of these drugs are, not establishing these drugs as some dark cryptic monster that seems edgy and appealing to our rebellious teens.

At 2/14/13 02:42 AM, kryzyt wrote:

At 2/14/13 02:23 AM, Ceratisa wrote: No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

It will be an issue, but the real question, that I'm willing to admit is a good question, is whether the amount of children who get pot from adults will outweigh the amount of children who already get pot from illegal sources.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.

Yes, but we also have destroyed their entire business model. Post-prohibition mobsters didn't stay in business by selling to children.

Not really a valid comparison because the percentage of current minors using pot is much greater then could ever be marketable in alcohol. Not trying to be mean, just saying it is more comparable to tobacco being targeted towards children (which continues to this day really)

In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of?

I'm fine with forcing people to go to holed up dispenseries, guarded by armed guards and auto-turrets. Or having to have a doctors note and legal document stating they are capable of healthily taking the drug, and they are of sound mind not to sell to children, I don't really care, I just feel that illegal it presents a major driving force to illegal organizations trying to gain power in our country. I feel you are overstating the immorality of American adults, when compared to the immorality of common drug dealers. We have at this moment a demand for mind altering substances in our youth, this is the core of the issue you are presenting. I feel if we must use government resources to root out the problem of substance abuse in minors, perhaps it would be better to spend those resources in hiring proper counseling and education as to what the negative merits of these drugs are, not establishing these drugs as some dark cryptic monster that seems edgy and appealing to our rebellious teens.

With all that said, is legalization really necessary or is decriminalization more realistic? I still don't think you understand the issue about the common american adult isn't immorality. The "normal" parent who is not utterly controlling cannot control every aspect of their children's life. And if not about being "controlling" it is about simple negligence. Parents aren't going to do it on purpose (I hope) but it will happen.
And I still don't see how we could stop dealers from still pushing their drugs to kids, who more than ever become their primary target.

On your counseling and education comments. My state already spends a great deal on it. It doesn't really stop it from being one of the states with the highest pot abuse in youths. (decriminalization in my state)

At 2/13/13 01:58 AM, Ceratisa wrote:

Seriously, comparing human-level consciousness to a mouse brain.. that has to be a joke.

You don't understand anatomy if you think that is a joke.

Even basic (assumed) similarity of mouse and human anatomy have proven false.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/science/testing-of-some-de adly-diseases-on-mice-mislead-report-says.html

âEUoeItâEUTMs amazingâEU

âEUoeThis is a game changerâEU

"It helps explain why every one of nearly 150 drugs tested at a huge expense in patients with sepsis has failed. The drug tests all were based on studies in mice. And mice, it turns out, can have something that looks like sepsis in humans, but is very different from the condition in humans."

âEUoeThey were so used to doing mouse studies that they thought that was how you validate things,âEU he said. âEUoeThey are so ingrained in trying to cure mice that they forget we are trying to cure humans.âEU

âEUoeThat started us thinking.. Is it the same in the mouse or not?âEU

The group decided to look, expecting to find some similarities.
But when the data was analyzed, there were none at all.

âEUoeWe were kind of blown away,âEU

You mean the pathways we form just by thinking?
...Neuroplasticity. Which can alter the very way our brain functions through mental stimulation and exercises.

Correct.

The way our traditional education system works is that we spend (on average) about 20 years having stuff poured into our brains in classroom settings. We head off to class everyday not expecting to be challenged unless there's an expected test. If you think of the brain as a sponge, designed simply to mop up knowledge then that's fine. And this is certainly true when we are young..

"Once the child is born, the billions of neurons start to interact with each other creating neural pathways within the nervous system. Since each individual neuron can make at least 15,000 new connections, there are infinite amount of connections and circuitry can be established to form a childâEUTMs experience and capabilities. The reason behind this is because the brain is the most malleable during these early years."

The implication here is that the brain becomes much less malleable with age. When taught formally for 20 years it becomes almost rigid. It may also depends on what you do with your free time, but many of us are "sponges" at home as much as when in school because that is what society valued the most. And knowledge of many subjects is great, but it is wasted without the creative spark needed to synthesize that knowledge. Today this problem is best expressed as "Who needs years and years of memorized knowledge when i have Google or Wikipedia always at my fingertips?"

So where does our creative spark come from? This is what we're really asking when talking about mental stimulation and exercises. Here we can look back to one of the most creative individuals of our age; Einstein said âEUoeWhen I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge.âEU

And what is Fantasy? For most of us it's when we dream at night. We're able to let go our conscious minds and drift off into an unconscious creative state. There we evaluate our past, present and future in very uncontrolled and abstract ways. But unfortunately we are left almost completely unaware of the processes and conclusions, except for brief glimpses as we start to return to consciousness when we wake up.

Meditation or drugs on the other hand offer us an ability to journey into a higher abstracted state whilst still retaining conscious control of our thoughts in order to focus on specific ideas. This 'ease of transition' is one appeal of taking drugs.

.

geez. now quotes are not handled correctly?! lol

I'm sorry entice, that has to be some of the weakest counter argument yet.
Your post basically amounts to, it already happens so, why not? Really reading over it all you say nothing to actually focus on the ILLEGAL SALE (not legitimate businesses popping up and selling it) to minors.
You go on to assume that somehow just because it becomes legal for adults drug dealers will stop selling to kids because the "culture" will disappear? Are you suggesting the kids wanting to get high will disappear?

If you want to compare us to say the Netherlands you better be advocating the same super tight restrictions against minors they have. Only adults being allowed to enter places where it is consumed.
"The Dutch have reduced the street market. Since adults can go into coffee shops, there are fewer street dealers, and since there are fewer street dealers, that reduces the opportunities for teenagers to go buy from someone on the street."

But see most legalization doesn't deal with that. It has to do with carrying legally and dispensing the drug.
When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

At 2/16/13 05:29 AM, Entice wrote:

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Only adults being allowed to enter places where it is consumed.

That's just a given because it's usually smoked and the effects can hit other people in the general area. It's not "super tight restrictions".

You go on to assume that somehow just because it becomes legal for adults drug dealers will stop selling to kids because the "culture" will disappear? Are you suggesting the kids wanting to get high will disappear?

I'm just saying that the illicit trade will appear if it becomes illegal because well, if it's already legal why take the risk of selling it illegally? Hence the street market will disappear.

"The Dutch have reduced the street market. Since adults can go into coffee shops, there are fewer street dealers, and since there are fewer street dealers, that reduces the opportunities for teenagers to go buy from someone on the street."

Yes exactly.

When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

Love how you again repeated this without backing it up. Demand won't necessarily increase if weed becomes illegal and supply won't increase unless demand does.

You can't say otherwise, because it is still controlled with the Dutch. And all a dealer would have to do is have smaller amounts on his person. That way he can claim personal use if stopped. Drug dealers break the law, you can't compare the Netherlands where you consume it in cafes and the legalization push here where you can carry like a pound of it.

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

But see most legalization doesn't deal with that. It has to do with carrying legally and dispensing the drug.
When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

Weakest argument AGAINST legalization yet. Sure, it increases availability, but most people who don't do drugs, don't do them because they don't want to. The illegal sales, I agree, are one thing that might not stop, but they will be a lot less common, considering if the government plays their cards right, prices on good weed will go down if sold legally. Not only that, but it will be safer, and businesses can sell larger amounts of the stuff for cheaper, whereas to get large quantities of weed illegally, one would have to pay well into the thousands of dollars range.

Besides, when all is said and done, good parenting and social responsibility are the only weapons against teenagers doing stupid shit.

At 2/18/13 06:38 PM, KiwiSundae wrote: Besides, when all is said and done, good parenting and social responsibility are the only weapons against teenagers doing stupid shit.

Indeed. And a society with good laws helps good parenting.
Bad laws only add confusion to the whole issue, especially for teens who naturally doubt any authority.

At 2/18/13 06:38 PM, KiwiSundae wrote:

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

But see most legalization doesn't deal with that. It has to do with carrying legally and dispensing the drug.
When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

Weakest argument AGAINST legalization yet. Sure, it increases availability, but most people who don't do drugs, don't do them because they don't want to. The illegal sales, I agree, are one thing that might not stop, but they will be a lot less common, considering if the government plays their cards right, prices on good weed will go down if sold legally. Not only that, but it will be safer, and businesses can sell larger amounts of the stuff for cheaper, whereas to get large quantities of weed illegally, one would have to pay well into the thousands of dollars range.

You call my argument weak but you have an entire market who still wants weed (children) and if there is a market for it there is people willing to run the market (Drug dealers)
Which was my entire point before but you chose to ignore that issue. The way it is consumed is different there. People aren't carrying up to a pound of weed on them there. It is consumed in certain facilities instead.
The prices don't mean shit when it is an illegal market other then kids might get to buy it for less if it is cheaper to obtain with less risk of possession.

The weakness you perceived in my argument was because you selected one point while I had already covered what you were saying and ignored the references in the quote I was talking about.

Besides, when all is said and done, good parenting and social responsibility are the only weapons against teenagers doing stupid shit.

There seems to be an abundance of boring if not stupid TV shows that unfortunately being drunk and trying to enjoy them just isn't doing the trick and for some odd reason the powers that be continue to run up every damn network with nothing but stupid TV shows that would require me to get stoned to be able to enjoy them Shows like:

NCIS and CSI: same damn show no damn difference!
According to Jim: Jim Belushi is nowhere near as funny as John Belushi!
The Big Bang Theory: Just cloned 7 or 8 characters that are the exact same character no damn difference!
30 Rock: Tina Fey is not funny never has been funny never will be funny!

Fortunately for me Marijuana is still legal in the State of Washington so I just need to find the nearest retailer. :D

But only Marijuana should be legal the harder drugs need to remain illegal. They'll do far worse damage and are far more addictive.

At 3/27/13 10:28 PM, Omegeist wrote: How about No

Care to indulge us on why?

At 2/18/13 06:38 PM, KiwiSundae wrote:

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

Besides, when all is said and done, good parenting and social responsibility are the only weapons against teenagers doing stupid shit.

I agree with that. For me I don't approve of doing drug's, but also just throwing people in jail for the "more serious" drugs isn't really improving anything as well, it's only keeping a cap on things while the problem thrives secretly. I believe they should either legalize it to decriminalize it and get them some help or at least don't just throw them in jail but make it required for them to have to get help. In contrast the laws can be very fickle and inconsistent. what about cigarettes and the "medical" uses of marijuana. Our justice system in this country is very crooked and contradicting at times. Band some things because of social acceptance and other things because of "special circumstances". I'm seeking the side with a more long term improvement, not a band-aid. Legalize it force medical help in replacement of jail and see what happends.

At 2/18/13 08:26 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

At 2/18/13 06:38 PM, KiwiSundae wrote:

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

Weakest argument AGAINST legalization yet. Sure, it increases availability, but most people who don't do drugs, don't do them because they don't want to. The illegal sales, I agree, are one thing that might not stop, but they will be a lot less common, considering if the government plays their cards right, prices on good weed will go down if sold legally. Not only that, but it will be safer, and businesses can sell larger amounts of the stuff for cheaper, whereas to get large quantities of weed illegally, one would have to pay well into the thousands of dollars range.

My dear boy that is BULLSHIT! Purest, Unbelievable, Unremarkable, Weapons-Grade-BULLSHIT! You honestly don't need to pay thousands of dollars for a reasonable quantity of Mary Jane unless you want oh...about...7 acres of sweet Mary Jane then yes you would have to pay within the thousands of range but if you just want a full Quart Size Ziplock Bag of Mary Jane it's going to MOST DEFINITELY be MUCH LESS than the thousands of dollars you recklessly exaggerate! LUDICROUS!

Now then...It is far more rational to legalize Marijuana Worldwide because if you do the overcrowding problem in prisons which is not only a pain in the ass in America but all over the world countries have a serious overcrowding problem in prisons and The System can't figure out why. REALLY? I'll tell those morons why is because those morons have ridiculously harsh penalties for even the most minor of drug offenses like marijuana which is far less dangerous than harder drugs like cocaine and heroin and far more addictive and far more harmful too but unfortunately The System chooses to freakishly harshly penalize marijuana users with the same harsh penalty and hefty prison sentence for cocaine or heroin use! OUTRAGEOUS! All you need to do is legalize marijuana and the overcrowding problem in Prison will END. Gone. Done. And while your at it lower the U.S. Drinking Age to 18 it's the same age to vote, enlist in the military, get drafted and die in a useless war, smoke tobacco and tarnish your body in ways Alcohol and Marijuana never could then Goddammit you're old enough to drink!

Newsflash U.S. Government:You are literally the only country on this entire planet who forces the rest to wait for age 21 before drinking! No seriously, YOU ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET WHO SAYS "21 OR ELSE" YOU FUCKHEADS! Get over yourselves, then get your heads firmly lodged far up your fat shitty stinky asses out of your asses and lower the U.S. Drinking age to 18!

Lastly, taxing of said legalized Marijuana is also a necessity just don't go over the top with a freakishly high tax be reasonable and you will most definitely save a suffering economy and replace it with a huge budget surplus and lord knows countries like Ireland and Greece sure need it so legalize Marijuana there and then tax it and the country will prosper with a budget surplus.

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

You call my argument weak but you have an entire market who still wants weed (children) and if there is a market for it there is people willing to run the market (Drug dealers)
Which was my entire point before but you chose to ignore that issue. The way it is consumed is different there. People aren't carrying up to a pound of weed on them there. It is consumed in certain facilities instead.
The prices don't mean shit when it is an illegal market other then kids might get to buy it for less if it is cheaper to obtain with less risk of possession.

The weakness you perceived in my argument was because you selected one point while I had already covered what you were saying and ignored the references in the quote I was talking about.

Besides, when all is said and done, good parenting and social responsibility are the only weapons against teenagers doing stupid shit.

How stupid are you? First off, weed will not be sold to children when it's legal because people will have to be ID'd to get it.

Secondly, there will not be illegal drug dealers when weed is legalized, because people will generally not be stupid enough to buy weed from anonymous strangers when they can buy it from people with licenses to sell it. Would you buy your alcohol from someone off the street and just cross your fingers and hope they gave you quality alcohol? OF COURSE NOT, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A RETARD.

At 7/29/13 10:12 PM, 24901miles wrote:

At 7/29/13 08:46 PM, Ononymous wrote: Would you buy your alcohol from someone off the street and just cross your fingers and hope they gave you quality alcohol? OF COURSE NOT, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A RETARD.

That doesn't really apply here, Skippy.

Have you ever bought weed? Of course it applies. People sell bags of weed for a great deal more than they're worth because they include a lot of stems and shit to make the dimebags they sell much heavier, the same way that bootleggers sold watered-down beer during Prohibition.

I prefer cheap low grade weed because I have a super low tolerance , so it's quantity over quality for me. 50 bucks for half an ounce is what I go for. But my old weed man disappeared. I dunno what happened to him. I haven't smoked since some time in the autumn.

Also, on the issue of kids. When I was a minor, it was waaay easier for me to get weed than it was to get alcohol. So I don't buy that argument.

At 7/30/13 04:35 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Also, on the issue of kids. When I was a minor, it was waaay easier for me to get weed than it was to get alcohol. So I don't buy that argument.

And some may not have access to Marijuana at all. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove anything.

At 7/31/13 01:04 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

At 7/30/13 04:35 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Also, on the issue of kids. When I was a minor, it was waaay easier for me to get weed than it was to get alcohol. So I don't buy that argument.

And some may not have access to Marijuana at all. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove anything.

If a kid wants weed, all he needs to do is ask around. If he wants booze, maybe his parents have some, but if he drinks some and replaces it with water, they'll find out. Besides, that would be an issue of parental irresponsibility. And good luck getting an stranger to buy it for you without getting in trouble.

Either way, it's just freaking weed. Better that than booze.