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WHO convinced YOU?

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bumcheekcity
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WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 15:36:53 Reply

Purely out of interest, WHO convinced you [if you have been convinced] that Saddam had WMD?

None of us work for our Defence Ministries, and none of us have acess to the documents that proved he had WMD. None of us are Politicians, and none of us have met any and talked with them and been convinved first-hand of Saddams WMD possesion.

If any of the above doesn't actually apply to you, then ignore it, but i'm pretty sure that none of us have done the aforementioned things.

So, how and by WHO were you convinced? Did you see any intelligence? Or, like many people, were you just told "Saddam had WMD" and "We have proof" and believed the government without seeing the proof?

Just a question.

Proteas
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:06:57 Reply

I personally felt he had WMD's. If he didn't, he would have allowed the U.N. weapon inspectors free access to go wherever they wanted, then they wouldn't have found anything anyway.


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lapslf
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:11:43 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:06 PM, Proteas wrote: I personally felt he had WMD's. If he didn't, he would have allowed the U.N. weapon inspectors free access to go wherever they wanted, then they wouldn't have found anything anyway.

Can you spell "bluffing"?

Dagodevas
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:11:52 Reply

The person who sent me this.

lapslf
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:13:51 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:11 PM, Dagodevas wrote: The person who sent me this.

Kick his ass for sending you a broken link.

RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:18:38 Reply

I believed, and have all along:
• that any weapons of mass destruction that we once provided to Iraq, were either destroyed, or outdated (biological, chemical weapons have a shelf life of only a few years, no?).
• They never had anything resembling a nuclear weapon.
• Scott Ritter (right name?), weapons inspector, said that by 1998 (right before we pulled inspectors out), Iraq's weapons program was 90% deconstructed. There was no way in hell that they could reassume an extensive program to manufacture large quantities of weapons in five years.
• I believe Hussein's wavering with weapons inspectors was a way to posture as if they had significant weapons. They way they could continue to exert influence over neighboring countries like Kuwait.

bam.


The one thing force produces is resistance.

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RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:33:50 Reply

Oh, but just some quotes to justify being convinced:

In early January 2003, President Bush said, "The Iraqi regime is a threat to any American. They not only have weapons of mass destruction, they used weapons of mass destruction...That's why I say Iraq is a threat, a real threat."

In his speech announcing the invasion, President Bush said the war was justified because Americans were "living at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder."

Ten days after the war began, Secretary Rumsfeld asserted the U.S had pinpointed the location of WMD, saying, "We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

Less than two months later, President Bush went on television to claim that WMD had been found, saying, "we found the weapons of mass destruction" - an assertion that was false. Asked a follow-up question, the president again contended they'd been found, saying, "For those who say we haven't found [them], they're wrong, we found them."

http://www.moveon.org/false/video/


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RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 16:38:09 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:32 PM, Jimsween wrote: I am still convinced he has WMD, because of the fact that he did have them, and there is no evidence whatsoever that he got rid of them.

shelf-life
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15854


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bumcheekcity
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 17:15:21 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:06 PM, Proteas wrote: I personally felt he had WMD's. If he didn't, he would have allowed the U.N. weapon inspectors free access to go wherever they wanted, then they wouldn't have found anything anyway.

So, you had a 'hunch' you would say? If you only 'felt' he had them. Sure, if he didn't have them, then he MIGHT have let the inspectors go where they wanted, but maybe hhe didn't want them uncovering other things.

Proteas
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 17:22:55 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:11 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: Can you spell "bluffing"?

My reply was going to be, "What would he have gained from bluffing?" but Jim seems to have answered that question for me.


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Dagodevas
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 17:22:56 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:32 PM, Jimsween wrote:
At 1/31/04 04:13 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: Kick his ass for sending you a broken link.
OR maybe you jut live in crazy bad ISP land, the link works fine for me.

Jim's right. It works fine for me too. Try going into a different browser.

bumcheekcity
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 17:35:56 Reply

Basically, the fact is that, sure, Saddam probably did have some chemical + biological weapons, but the Bush Adminisration was making him out to have long-range nukes, etc.

I'm just making the point out that none of us have seen any first-hand evidence. All we are doing is being told that he had them. They constantly said they had proof, but we've never seen it. They constantly said they knew what Saddam had, and where the weapons were, but never found them.

The mere fact that Saddam didn't let the inspectors full freedom didn't mean he was hiding WMD's, but maybe something else. Maybe he just didn't trust the Inspectors.

And please note that the question is not WHAT convinced you. It is WHO. Criminals are not guilty until PROVEN so. The fact that it is POSSIBLE he held WMD, and that he displayed some dodgy behaviour, wouldn't be enough to convict a man in court.

From Dag's source:

...the report would name the corporations that supplied Iraq with the equipment and other material it needed to develop biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons.

Read it again. Not that it was supplied with WMD, just the Ingredients to MAKE them. The impression given was that Iraq HAD WMD, now, at this moment in time, and could shoot them within 45 minuites. All of this is bullshit. Saddam did NOT have WMD [going by the fact that we haven't found any yet], he may or may not have had the supplies to create them, and he certainly couldn't have launched ANYTHING within 45 minuites.

RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 20:26:35 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:59 PM, Jimsween wrote: That is very interesting but that only applies to certain chemical weapons, mustard gas and biological agents are still potent, and the VX could also still be potent.

http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960705/73919_01.htm

True, it does only apply to certain types, but note that your first link was from '91. A lot of the stuff was scarcily three years old at that time.

Regardless, yes, there is probably some mustard gas or suchforth there, but not nearly in any type of quantity.


The one thing force produces is resistance.

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stonedpimp69
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 22:25:30 Reply

damnit i'm beginning to think i misjudged Jimsween at first. Congrats on not beeing a liberal idiot with his head up his ass.
I was actually gonna reply to this but then I saw you were doing it for me...
:D

stonedpimp69
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 22:36:59 Reply

hey as long as youre head aint up your ass...(then why are you posting things i wanted to post? they don't sound to liberal, and bum doesn't seem to conservative, but then again i AM hardcore conservaticve, so I guess everything is comparative...)

MountainHermit
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-01-31 23:22:52 Reply

At 1/31/04 04:32 PM, Jimsween wrote:
I am still convinced he has WMD, because of the fact that he did have them, and there is no evidence whatsoever that he got rid of them.

There i sno eviudence what so ever the Bush still isnt an alcoholic and doing drugs.

First of all, Saddam kept no records whatsoever of his destroying the weapons, no files, no videotapes, nothing at all.

Disposal Log entery 2435: Today me and Mohammad Mohammad destroyed 3 tons of poison gas. M and M as I like to call him seems to be devloping some wierd skin rash.

Second, It is going to take 6 years for US to destroy just a few tons of chemical weapons in pennsylvania, and there is still going to be heavy concentrations of them in the air, but low and behold, Iraq was able to destroy a massive amount, in just a 10 years, without a trace of them in the air.

OK I cannot explain the reasoning behind nothing in the air, but the US hasnt been going non-stop, they take their time since they are in no rush. Plus the US has a bigger stockpile. Iraq could just have taken them all out into the desert one night and made a huge bonfire. Or perhaps it was dumped into the ocean.

Third, since the invention of GPS, Saddam would have been able to simply bury them, keep the coordinates, and they would be virtually invisible until the day he wanted to get them back.

I think someone would notice the excavation of that much land. If they can find a mass grave with four bodies in it Im sure they can find a bunker with several tons of poison gas.

And fourth, if Saddam didn't have weapons, why did he struggle so much? If he just rolled over and let the weapons inspectors go everywhere and let US do whatever it wants, he could have stayed in power for the rest of his life.

Matter of princeple maybe? HEy I dont have drugs in my room, but if the cops show up and want to take a peek in my room Im still saying not without a warrant.


It just doesn't add up.

Nothing ever does.

Hunter-Of-Peace
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 02:32:55 Reply

Just the history of the matter got me to believing that he may have some distructive chemicals from hidden over there somewhere. So, I stuck to the idea but I'm quite suprised we didn't find anything. On the other hand, I'm glad we took that irresponsible and unmoral dictator out of his position of power on a small country. Still, I hate to see american soldiers die by the infectios minds of suicide bombers who stop at nothing for the demise of the innocense. Just my opinion.

<deleted>
Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 03:44:25 Reply

Bush and friends like to repeat that "Saddam had WMD" well that doesn't matter unless he actually has some now. Using that logic we could invade almost every country in the world.

Dagodevas
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 15:41:27 Reply

At 1/31/04 05:35 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: Read it again. Not that it was supplied with WMD, just the Ingredients to MAKE them.

I fully adknowledge that. It's just suspicious. Why would he want all those materials?

beaucoup-yeux
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 16:08:28 Reply

thing is 1/3 of americans believed we found WMD's, and bush even stated, in sweeden i believe, that we found WMD's. they convinced us by telling us they existed time and again

bumcheekcity
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 16:23:17 Reply

At 2/1/04 03:41 PM, Dagodevas wrote:
At 1/31/04 05:35 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: Read it again. Not that it was supplied with WMD, just the Ingredients to MAKE them.
I fully adknowledge that. It's just suspicious. Why would he want all those materials?

To make WMD, of course. That's obvious, and it's obvious he wanted to aquire them. The fact is that he evidently didn't have them, on account of the fact that we can't bloody well find them.

GooieGreen
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 19:22:49 Reply

I don'tsee them, therefore, they don't exist. Yes, the ostridge syndrome. We went into Iraq on a whim and, I'm not sure about you, but I didn't see the grand city made of nukes. All I saw was some small chem sets and a coffee can of mustard gas. W00T! W00T!

Give me a break. When I see the real stuff, I will say "Okay, your "war" was just". For now, I'll keep watching the oil prices.

RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 20:24:23 Reply

At 2/1/04 04:08 PM, kada wrote: thing is 1/3 of americans believed we found WMD's, and bush even stated, in sweeden i believe, that we found WMD's. they convinced us by telling us they existed time and again

.. did anyone read the quotes i posted? Yes, he said we found the WMD's, and he said this in America.


The one thing force produces is resistance.

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GooieGreen
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-01 22:51:17 Reply

I wanna see them, hell, dump the motherload in my backyard. I wanna see BBC have a special about it, not Fox. How much did we find? Of what? I haven't been really following that as much since it, for some reason, has vanished out of the public eye, and have been replaced with Wacko Jacko in court... again... anybody have any good news sources about the results on WMD?

RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 00:55:38 Reply

At 2/1/04 10:51 PM, Gooie wrote: anybody have any good news sources about the results on WMD?

I remember, on the tv, on NBC, I heard about a massive quantity of dangerous, chemicals for weapons that were found.
Later in the week, on the BBC website, I read that it was actually just a store of pesticides.
I never saw a follow-up on the television.

I don't know, I haven't heard of any finds of weapons, jimsween keeps mentioning mustard gas canisters or something?

A jump-off point: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_...conflict_with_iraq/default.stm


The one thing force produces is resistance.

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<deleted>
Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 01:03:23 Reply

You mean those empty mustard gas canisters?

RedSkunk
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 01:09:32 Reply

At 2/2/04 01:03 AM, swallowing_shit wrote: You mean those empty mustard gas canisters?

Yeah, those.


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GooieGreen
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 12:53:26 Reply

At 2/2/04 01:09 AM, red_skunk wrote:
At 2/2/04 01:03 AM, swallowing_shit wrote: You mean those empty mustard gas canisters?
Yeah, those.

mustard gas is SOOOOOO world war one (aka the great war... that sucked)

mentalis
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Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 15:21:09 Reply

I believe that he no langer had WMD but he had such an ego that he wanted people to think he might still have some.

<deleted>
Response to WHO convinced YOU? 2004-02-02 16:25:50 Reply

The U.N. inspectors stressed at the time that the ammunition was expected to be there and not a sign of an active chemical weapons program.

Well la dee da then.