Music Theory Anyone?

[stargroup100]

So I've noticed that a lot of people here prioritize and focus a lot on music production, which is understandable if you're making electronic music.

However, when I'm scrolling through the portal, everything, songs and reviews and other stuff in between, revolves around how well a piece is produced. It doesn't matter how crappy the chord progression is, how badly developed or bland the melody is, the lack of a central motif, failure to present colorful harmony, no risks such as modulations, ornaments, or complex riffs, as long it's well produced, it'll score high.

Does anyone here actually care about the NOTES that are being played? It's extraordinarily rare to see a song that actually has a decent melodic line and a solid, creative chord progression. In fact, some arranges somehow manage to dumb down from the original, and I have no idea how that's possible.

[loansindi]

At 7/13/09 01:39 AM, stargroup100 wrote: Does anyone here actually care about the NOTES that are being played? It's extraordinarily rare to see a song that actually has a decent melodic line and a solid, creative chord progression. In fact, some arranges somehow manage to dumb down from the original, and I have no idea how that's possible.

Please, let's have this argument again. REALLY I WANT TO DO IT.

The consensus is that most of the artists here feel music theory is 'boring' and they'd rather just do things by ear.

There are artists who consider the theory of their pieces. I know I do keep the concepts of key and progression in mind. This song was written specifically to fly in the face of production values, while being complex.

In the end, this is an argument that's been had over and over again.

[stargroup100]

I figured as much. Probably because of how popular Newgrounds is becoming. Ugh.

If someone out there is a fellow musician who has stuff that is actually well-written, please post it so I don't lose hope in this site completely.

[stargroup100]

At 7/13/09 01:46 AM, loansindi wrote:

At 7/13/09 01:39 AM, stargroup100 wrote: Does anyone here actually care about the NOTES that are being played? It's extraordinarily rare to see a song that actually has a decent melodic line and a solid, creative chord progression. In fact, some arranges somehow manage to dumb down from the original, and I have no idea how that's possible.

Please, let's have this argument again. REALLY I WANT TO DO IT.

The consensus is that most of the artists here feel music theory is 'boring' and they'd rather just do things by ear.

There are artists who consider the theory of their pieces. I know I do keep the concepts of key and progression in mind. This song was written specifically to fly in the face of production values, while being complex.

In the end, this is an argument that's been had over and over again.

The problem is, for trained ears, all of this is boring because everyone's using the same ears to write the SAME THING.

Music theory exists because it studies music to explain why certain things sound better, just like why music production exists. Calling it boring and saying the argument should never start, isn't that just disregarding one half of music?

I do things by ear too, but I stick to music theory to a degree. I do learn by ear, but I analyze the things I find interesting, figure out why I like it, and emulate it. But I do so using music theory, and it ends up being easier, and I can take my music to another level. JUST LIKE MUSIC PRODUCTION

Thanks for throwing away half of music altogether you're not really helping.

[SineRider]

At 7/13/09 01:46 AM, stargroup100 wrote: I figured as much. Probably because of how popular Newgrounds is becoming. Ugh.

If someone out there is a fellow musician who has stuff that is actually well-written, please post it so I don't lose hope in this site completely.

Don't be lazy, go look for yourself.

[stargroup100]

Oops that came out a little angry and I misunderstood your point.

But at least there are others who DO care, right?

[KgZ]

I honestly don't get where you are coming from Stargroup.

[BrokenDeck]

At 7/13/09 01:52 AM, stargroup100 wrote: Oops that came out a little angry and I misunderstood your point.

But at least there are others who DO care, right?

I care, and off the top of my head I know THESE people care...
MH16, MaestroRage, MilkMan-Dan, Danman87, nathanallenpinard, SolusLunes, and myself of course.

[Gravey]

At 7/13/09 02:02 AM, benyue1978 wrote:

At 7/13/09 01:59 AM, brokendeck wrote:

I care, and off the top of my head I know THESE people care...
MH16, MaestroRage, MilkMan-Dan, Danman87, nathanallenpinard, SolusLunes, and myself of course.

somehow maestrorage is always mentioned

ROFL!!! X-D

Thank you for that laugh!

Now onto other things...

This thread is kinda pointless, but I feel I must say this. There are some people here that do know theory. I personally started piano lessons when I was three, and began theory when I was four. I also took composition and theory classes in college, and had theory lessons while in band and choir in high school. And I know a few others who know theory on here as well.

For the main part though, the typical artists on Newgrounds knows zero theory. Why? Because this is an amateur site. 99.99% of artists here are amateurs, and that is the bottom line.

I know a lot of people feel my work is pretty intricate and well written. I'd say my best composition would be the song Starlit Storm. I personally think it is very well written.

Two of the best on Newgrounds though would be BlackAttackBitch and TestSubjectA. BlackAttackBitch is very soundtrack-esque. His stuff would fit in perfectly with most movies really. And TestSubjectA is just so unique in his writing style its almost sickening at times. Plus he does weird things with classical instruments that just sounds great.

To be honest I've never been impressed with some of the artists mentioned above. I feel a couple of them simply sound better because they have better gear than others, such as EastWest stuff. EastWest can make the worst song ever sound halfway decent. But I definitely agree that Nathanallenpinnard has some great stuff, so check him out as well.

The artists I mentioned above definitely have music theory under their belt. And it shows in their music for sure.

There are definitely great artists here on Newgrounds, but you have to work pretty hard to find them most of the time.

-Gravey-

[Jeepis]

A song of mine
Alright, so this is a song I wrote and honest to god (or budha or whatever rows your imaginary boat) I don't know music theory at all. I know what sounds good together and that's enough for me at the moment.
The point is, listen to the song and tell me if it's really obvious that I know no music theory or have I masked it well?

[Phoog]

A review comments on how well a song is mixed and mastered because there is a result of good and bad in the quality of the production of a song. Is someone writes a riff or melody, and then you come along all like "I think you could improve it like this blah blah", even if you give a well structured review, they're just going to say they like it how it is, and not change it.

Composition is more the art of a musician, and with art comes opinion and individual perception.
But production has a quality of bad and good. Simple really.

[sorohanro]

As I see, Music Theory is a powerful tool in the hands of the right person.
In music, like in other aspects of life, theory came from practice...well, not all. First was Pythagoras who established the distance between notes (without him we wouldn't have tones and semitones) and discovered the "perfect" intervals (8va, 4th and 5th) by mathematic calculations.

Now everybody is using keyboards that have white and black keys, using (mostly) without knowing a theoretical achievement older than they think.

But the rest of theory came from practice, practice of better musicians than we are, so why not using their knowledge in our advantage ?

I know just one reason, LAZINESS.

So, as a nice addition to this thread, have some useful links:
www.musictheory.net
library.thinkquest.org/theory
www.tonalcentre.org
And something more advanced for the usual NG user:
www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-theory
Have fun.

[stargroup100]

At 7/13/09 06:05 AM, Jeepis wrote: A song of mine
Alright, so this is a song I wrote and honest to god (or budha or whatever rows your imaginary boat) I don't know music theory at all. I know what sounds good together and that's enough for me at the moment.
The point is, listen to the song and tell me if it's really obvious that I know no music theory or have I masked it well?

Not bad. For Newgrounds material it's pretty good. At least there was some variety and color. However, I can still tell that you haven't much music theory experience because of the slightly random chords, the way your instruments line up throughout the song, and the repetition near the end. But, it is a close call.

At 7/13/09 06:36 AM, DexterPowercrush wrote: A review comments on how well a song is mixed and mastered because there is a result of good and bad in the quality of the production of a song. Is someone writes a riff or melody, and then you come along all like "I think you could improve it like this blah blah", even if you give a well structured review, they're just going to say they like it how it is, and not change it.

Composition is more the art of a musician, and with art comes opinion and individual perception.
But production has a quality of bad and good. Simple really.

Composition also has a quality of bad and good. Let's take the example to the extreme. If I said that my composition was smashing my face across the keyboard, playing random notes, it's possible that you can say that it's just my style and individual perception, and perhaps I'm a genius for being so avant-garde. But really? I'm just smashing my face across a keyboard. If production quality can be defined, so can composition quality.

At 7/13/09 07:57 AM, varrin7 wrote: I have the same feelings towards most of the music on this site. Of course, being a die-hard classical fan, I scoff at most anything that invloves lyrics, unless it's opera (hehe). I myself am probably guilty of submitting songs that contradict theory, but I'm trying my best! I am going to take a music theory class this year starting in the fall, so towards the end of this year my music should begin to get better and better as I learn more.....hopefully.

Yeah but when it comes to genre, I think classical is definitely an underdog on this site. Which is a shame seeing as how any nine year old kid can pump out a techno beat. All you really have to do is drag and drop.

No offense, but you seem to be somewhat closed-minded in terms of music tastes. There are a lot of great songs with lyrics that aren't opera, which are easy to recognize if you can listen past the fact that it's not classical. But, if classical is just your thing, then I can't do anything about that heh.

It's alright if you submit songs that "contradict" theory as long as you have a reason for it.

Also, I'm absolutely disgusted by the classical portal. I improvise pieces better than 99.9% of the stuff on here. In fact, if you're gonna do classical music, this is the one place music theory does matter (and jazz). No one probably cares if you put music theory in dance music, but at least do it for classical and jazz, I mean come on.

That noted, I'm in the mood to review submissions based on how they're written. Let me know if anyone wants a review. (Criticism will be constructive but I can't guarantee a high score rating hehe)

[MJTTOMB]

At 7/13/09 10:29 AM, stargroup100 wrote: Also, I'm absolutely disgusted by the classical portal. I improvise pieces better than 99.9% of the stuff on here. In fact, if you're gonna do classical music, this is the one place music theory does matter (and jazz). No one probably cares if you put music theory in dance music, but at least do it for classical and jazz, I mean come on.

That noted, I'm in the mood to review submissions based on how they're written. Let me know if anyone wants a review. (Criticism will be constructive but I can't guarantee a high score rating hehe)

Haha, who's close-minded now?

I know theory down to the very last bit. And i use theory to write my work. I'd be interested to see if you can improvise better than I can write.

Ironically, i can improvise better than i write. I guess there's just more of a continuity to the aspect of improvisation, and i'm more likely to be content with my improvisations.

[sorohanro]

Disgusted by Classical section of the Audio Portal ?
That means that you were listening to the wrong stuff.
Nathan Pinard is one very good composer, quite new here but with a solid musical background. Just listen to these:

• 

  Shepherd's Call

  by nathanallenpinard

  Irish themed song played by a String Ensemble

  Song

  Classical

  6,515 Views

  PLAY
• 

  Hong Kong

  by nathanallenpinard

  Music Concept for the MMO in development "Conquest Of Heroes: Reign of the Order"

  Song

  Classical

  6,945 Views

  PLAY

Another one, much older here, but unfortunately forgotten is Yosmil, with my best favorite track here on NG:

• 

  Beautiful Day

  by yosmil

  Original composition with orchestral library: piano and string melody included!

  Song

  Classical

  7,325 Views

  PLAY

Shows that those guys had studied seriously music, theory, orchestration and how to use instruments (that is not orchestration, that is more like physical characteristics of "how to" and "how not to" play, how it's possible for an actual real player to play).
Winterwind-NS, Bosa, No1r are just a few who studied in a Music Academy and shows in their music writing...

Just check my fav's list and you'll find great musicians, Classical, Jazz, Rock... whatever you like. All are amazing.

[MJTTOMB]

At 7/13/09 11:17 AM, sorohanro wrote: Disgusted by Classical section of the Audio Portal ?
That means that you were listening to the wrong stuff.
Nathan Pinard is one very good composer, quite new here but with a solid musical background. Just listen to these:
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/2 34896
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/2 34147
Another one, much older here, but unfortunately forgotten is Yosmil, with my best favorite track here on NG:
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/4 2843
Shows that those guys had studied seriously music, theory, orchestration and how to use instruments (that is not orchestration, that is more like physical characteristics of "how to" and "how not to" play, how it's possible for an actual real player to play).
Winterwind-NS, Bosa, No1r are just a few who studied in a Music Academy and shows in their music writing...

Just check my fav's list and you'll find great musicians, Classical, Jazz, Rock... whatever you like. All are amazing.

I'd agree with all of these suggestions, but i'd add simon-f and musicalrocky to the list.

Simon's going to juillliard currently, and rocky's going to study music extensively, but i forget which school it is (again) >.<

both fantastic musicians.

also, if you'd be interested in listening to some of my latest piano works:

• 

  by <deleted>

  4 Views

• 

  by <deleted>

  4 Views

I also love writing for string orchestras, so if you do get a chance and you like my piano work, my strings works are my favorites.

[Fuoco]

At 7/13/09 01:39 AM, stargroup100 wrote: However, when I'm scrolling through the portal, everything, songs and reviews and other stuff in between, revolves around how well a piece is produced. It doesn't matter how crappy the chord progression is, how badly developed or bland the melody is, the lack of a central motif, failure to present colorful harmony, no risks such as modulations, ornaments, or complex riffs, as long it's well produced, it'll score high.

I thought I was alone there.

I usually find myself listening to a lot of midi's, because they have a nice melody and harmony. If a song sounds well on midi or basic soundfonts, then it's worth it for me. If not, then no matter how well produced it is or how many EastWest samples is using, the song is just boring.

It's like videogames. Graphics don't make the game, gameplay does. Graphics just makes the game look nice.

If you want to listen to some people who knows about music, check this guys out: Winterwind-NS, Simon-F, SorohanroRemiLegend, thatcomposerguy, MusicalRocky, DavidOrr

[stargroup100]

At 7/13/09 11:43 AM, Fuoco wrote:

At 7/13/09 01:39 AM, stargroup100 wrote: However, when I'm scrolling through the portal, everything, songs and reviews and other stuff in between, revolves around how well a piece is produced. It doesn't matter how crappy the chord progression is, how badly developed or bland the melody is, the lack of a central motif, failure to present colorful harmony, no risks such as modulations, ornaments, or complex riffs, as long it's well produced, it'll score high.

I thought I was alone there.

I usually find myself listening to a lot of midi's, because they have a nice melody and harmony. If a song sounds well on midi or basic soundfonts, then it's worth it for me. If not, then no matter how well produced it is or how many EastWest samples is using, the song is just boring.

It's like videogames. Graphics don't make the game, gameplay does. Graphics just makes the game look nice.

If you want to listen to some people who knows about music, check this guys out: Winterwind-NS, Simon-F, SorohanroRemiLegend, thatcomposerguy, MusicalRocky, DavidOrr

Yeah totally with you on the game thing. Ah, I actually know DavidOrr, he's good.

Actually, the stuff I have on this account is midi if you wanna check them out. Or you could try out my main account.

http://stargroup100.newgrounds.com/
http://cosmovibe.newgrounds.com/

[sorohanro]

Fuoco, how could I forgot... man... Fuoco is also a must listen... :)

[Phoog]

At 7/13/09 07:57 AM, varrin7 wrote: Which is a shame seeing as how any nine year old kid can pump out a techno beat. All you really have to do is drag and drop.

Man, I hate that you just said that.
Just 'cause it's dance music doesn't mean someone dragged and dropped shit. They'd be banned if they did that, as you can probably see from the silly amounts of threads.

Techno composition is miles different to that of classical, so no, it's not going to convey an array of different emotions blah-dee-blah-blah. But no one's going to play it in a club if the kick is distorting, so it needs to focus on the production side of it.
The same as, if it was a super slow, sad song, it's not going to get played in a club. I don't go clubbing to cry my eyes out. I go clubbing to get wasted, dance like a retard and put a huge grin on my face.

And all of you composers stop slating "techno" because it's not the same as classical or whatever it is you're into. Most of you don't even mean techno the majority of the time, you're just too arrogant to learn your forms of music.

FGHWRHWRTBW FGREG

[nathanallenpinard]

A good mixing/mastering of a song CAN make it sound better, just because it's friendly to the ears.

In the music business theory is not everything, but it does have an effect.

There are stages, think about it for a second. This is how my projects usually run (people that hire me)

1. Client writes a chord progression and lyrics. Client writes down a SIMPLE chord progression

2. Upon delivery I change the chords if needed, depending on the song. While some people may think complicated chord progressions are good, that isn't always the case. Sometimes, simpler is better.

3. Even with simple chord progressions, you can still orchestrate some complicated passages. Simple chords actually help a great deal with contrary motion and counterpoint. Plus, simple chord progressions have more of an emotional effect, since the ear can instantly recall what it heard before, rather than be thrown something that makes it go "wtf?"

If you listen to Shepherds Call. It's horrilby simple progressions. But does it sound like it? No, because I don't block chord my strings like most people do. People, DON'T JUST WRITE YOUR STRINGS LIKE A KEYBOARDIST WOULD (sorry, bit of a rant there)

[stargroup100]

At 7/13/09 01:08 PM, DexterPowercrush wrote:

At 7/13/09 07:57 AM, varrin7 wrote: Which is a shame seeing as how any nine year old kid can pump out a techno beat. All you really have to do is drag and drop.

Man, I hate that you just said that.
Just 'cause it's dance music doesn't mean someone dragged and dropped shit. They'd be banned if they did that, as you can probably see from the silly amounts of threads.

Techno composition is miles different to that of classical, so no, it's not going to convey an array of different emotions blah-dee-blah-blah. But no one's going to play it in a club if the kick is distorting, so it needs to focus on the production side of it.
The same as, if it was a super slow, sad song, it's not going to get played in a club. I don't go clubbing to cry my eyes out. I go clubbing to get wasted, dance like a retard and put a huge grin on my face.

And all of you composers stop slating "techno" because it's not the same as classical or whatever it is you're into. Most of you don't even mean techno the majority of the time, you're just too arrogant to learn your forms of music.

FGHWRHWRTBW FGREG

Notice how I didn't target techno. I only said that songs that are meant to be more melodic should focus more on the theory.

In addition, simple progression aren't always bad, as long as they are used creatively, sure. But that's simply not the case here, and something like that takes just as much effort, maybe more, than creating something with more complex progression because you have to work that much more around it.

I don't know why some of you are trying to justify something that could use improvement.

[MJTTOMB]

At 7/13/09 01:44 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: If you listen to Shepherds Call. It's horrilby simple progressions. But does it sound like it? No, because I don't block chord my strings like most people do. People, DON'T JUST WRITE YOUR STRINGS LIKE A KEYBOARDIST WOULD (sorry, bit of a rant there)

bahaha. I'd agree. I do it sometimes, but i'm improving.

My composition instructor's always like, "don't write football charts, your string players will kill you". And I don't think he's exaggerating.

[stargroup100]

At 7/13/09 01:44 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: If you listen to Shepherds Call. It's horrilby simple progressions. But does it sound like it? No, because I don't block chord my strings like most people do. People, DON'T JUST WRITE YOUR STRINGS LIKE A KEYBOARDIST WOULD (sorry, bit of a rant there)

What if you block chord them creatively?

• Unpublished Submission

[EmperorCharlemagne]

At 7/13/09 01:44 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: 3. Even with simple chord progressions, you can still orchestrate some complicated passages. Simple chords actually help a great deal with contrary motion and counterpoint. Plus, simple chord progressions have more of an emotional effect, since the ear can instantly recall what it heard before, rather than be thrown something that makes it go "wtf?"

If you listen to Shepherds Call. It's horrilby simple progressions. But does it sound like it? No, because I don't block chord my strings like most people do. People, DON'T JUST WRITE YOUR STRINGS LIKE A KEYBOARDIST WOULD (sorry, bit of a rant there)

Ha, that was an interesting read, and I am inclined to agree.

Unfortunately, being a pianist myself, I tend to write some things in terms of how I see them on a piano. Arnold Schoenberg was a violinist himself, so his piano works come of as technically sloppy and in some cases boneheadedly written. Whereas I am sure that my song for strings, "Valse Sinistre," comes off as terribly not complex to any string player of note.

I have slowly gravitated towards writing music with different chord progressions, if simply for the fact that I am sick of hearing regular pop progressions at this stage of the game. I try to mix things up any way I can. Though sometimes, I gravitate towards the minimalist spectrum of simplicity as well. Guess I am still looking for my voice of sorts...

As far as theory goes, I think about it a lot, because I find it highly interesting. I use it to a degree because I think that some of the ideas put forth by the so-called masters are worth some remembering, and if I like what they do, like Steve Reich or Alban Berg, I pick it up and adapt it to my own use. If I find something I don't like, like John Cage or Pierre Boulez, I ignore it, or mock or parody it to show my contempt.

[crimson86knight]

Sheesh... music is sure darn complex. I, for one, don't really understand the whole "Music Theory" aspect, but I do have to agree with some of the posts is that it's based off of the individuals perception. Some may think the song is disorganized, while others think it's very well perfect. Again... as Gravey has said, this site is full of Amateur musicians [which is including myself]. For me, I come about what sounds good, where to put notes, and especially what sounds are needed to bond with the others in the song. A lot of my songs will have instruments that sound "out-of-place", but in my opinion makes it unique. But anyways, just a bit of my rambling on the subject. Here's some of my music if you'd like to see if there's any of that "Music Theory".

Dawn of Existence

Cosmic Drift

Those two are actually demos of an upcoming album I plan to have. Now, I don't expect to be famous, but in reality it's for fun... but with serious ambition. I like to think of them as unique, because I like to come up with fresh melodies and not pre-set ones. They're both ambient if you'd like to know BTW. Yay to the music theory! :D

[Ziva]

At 7/13/09 01:46 AM, stargroup100 wrote: I figured as much. Probably because of how popular Newgrounds is becoming. Ugh.

If someone out there is a fellow musician who has stuff that is actually well-written, please post it so I don't lose hope in this site completely.

I got some ok music, every thing by ear. It ain't no Beethoven, but I guess we all strive to get there.
A bit of opera: 110014
Weird Classical: Classical Lapdance

[Tysuru]

throw in my two cent worth haha.

the thing is, not many people have the tools needed to make a symphony sounding thing.

however when it comes to music theory,
music theory starts to happen on its own, even to people who dont know it.
People will start realizing what sounds good haha.

This site is for a sound library, so of course there are going to be some amateurs who have no idea what they are doing, and yes, electronic is the genre of choice mainly because more or less, a LOT of flash animations prefer it. I wish there were a lot more movie quality score music and flashes but alas that does not happen.

okay, so i rambled just to join the conversation... haha

[FairSquare]

At 7/14/09 12:09 AM, Tysuru wrote: okay, so i rambled just to join the conversation... haha

Well, at least you didn't advertise your audio like those last two guys did.

And about music theory
When i first came to NG i didn't know anything about it. But i read alot on the audio forums and i have received very helpful reviews too that helped me to understand things better.
Still, i don't know much about music theory, but at least there's a start and i hope i'll be able to get some music theory lessons in the future. But for now, i still make everything by ear.
Knowing music theory can help, but it isn't necessary if you make music because you like to make music, like most people here.

[Rawmin]

At 7/13/09 07:57 AM, varrin7 wrote: Which is a shame seeing as how any nine year old kid can pump out a techno beat. All you really have to do is drag and drop.

Wow, you are so ignorant. I've spent 8 hours on my current trance song so far, and only have a minute and a half of audio to show for it. Do you really think i spent 8 hours, dragging and dropping? There is a hell of a lot more work that goes into creating good dance music than you give it credit for, and its ignorant assholes like you that give it a bad rap.

Any decent dance artist will make their own loops from scratch, hell most even make their own instruments. In what way is dragging and dropping loops?