If you saw a poster that insulted..

[Ranger2]

Israel, would you tear it down?
Personally, I would. I'm sick of hearing about people with posters saying "Israel is the Fourth Reich." or "Ohmert = Hitler" or showing a picture of the Nazi flag and the Israeli one.
If I saw a poster like that at school, I'd tear it down.

[Luxury-Yacht]

Depends. If it was ZOG bullshit or blatantly racist, I may. But if it was a legit argument, then no, I'd leave it. People in the U.S. just side with Israel without thinking too often, in my opinion. The average American never tries to think about what the Palestinian refugees are going through, or whether the establishment of Israel was justified in the first place, etc.

As much as I love Jews (my first GF was Jewish, and god damn cute to boot), the U.S. is so scared of pissing off Israel that it irritates me. For instance, the bombing of Lebanon in '07 (I think it was '07) was brutal on Israel's part. Huge over-reaction, so many innocents dead, etc. I could never defend Israel in that situation.

[His-Penis-is-on-Fire]

Anyone who is fucking racist enough to put up that kind of shit should be shot, so yeah, I'd tear it down. I'd tear it down and light it on fire because that's what it deserves.

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

[Luxury-Yacht]

At 11/14/08 09:52 PM, His-Penis-is-on-Fire wrote: Anyone who is fucking racist enough to put up that kind of shit should be shot, so yeah, I'd tear it down. I'd tear it down and light it on fire because that's what it deserves.

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

But what if it's an intelligent and neutral dissertation on Israeli policies? You can't just assume that any criticism of Israel is the result of racism/anti-semitism.

[His-Penis-is-on-Fire]

At 11/14/08 10:02 PM, Luxury-Yacht wrote:

At 11/14/08 09:52 PM, His-Penis-is-on-Fire wrote: Anyone who is fucking racist enough to put up that kind of shit should be shot, so yeah, I'd tear it down. I'd tear it down and light it on fire because that's what it deserves.

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

But what if it's an intelligent and neutral dissertation on Israeli policies? You can't just assume that any criticism of Israel is the result of racism/anti-semitism.

But most of it is. I'm just saying that I think we should tear down all these useless shitty racist posters. I mean, if it good, then leave it. But most of them are pathetically fucking bigoted.

[Tancrisism]

At 11/14/08 10:09 PM, His-Penis-is-on-Fire wrote:

At 11/14/08 09:52 PM, His-Penis-is-on-Fire wrote: Anyone who is fucking racist enough to put up that kind of shit should be shot, so yeah, I'd tear it down. I'd tear it down and light it on fire because that's what it deserves.

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

I am an atheist/agnostic with Jewish blood. Yet I have a lot of doubts about the legitimacy of Israel. I have nothing against Jews, but Israel is not the most innocent country in the world as a lot of people would like to believe it is.

But most of it is. I'm just saying that I think we should tear down all these useless shitty racist posters. I mean, if it good, then leave it. But most of them are pathetically fucking bigoted.

Sure, bigoted ridiculous propaganda sucks, I agree. But if it isn't saying something like "JEWISH CONSPIRACY" or anything of the sort, just criticizing Israel's somewhat oppressive policies, why not let it be? Unless it is in an inappropriate place, I suppose.

[Masterzakk]

At 11/14/08 09:40 PM, Ranger2 wrote: Israel, would you tear it down?
Personally, I would. I'm sick of hearing about people with posters saying "Israel is the Fourth Reich." or "Ohmert = Hitler" or showing a picture of the Nazi flag and the Israeli one.
If I saw a poster like that at school, I'd tear it down.

Saying that Israel is the fourth reich is moronic even though I think most jews are racist bastards IMO. Whatever man infact I like to boot that in many europian countries holocaust revisionism (I'm not calling it denial because its saying that you are DENAING that it is true but it is not). I'm also expecting a ban for being racist but remember this I'm just really pessimistic.

[Ranger2]

At 11/14/08 10:35 PM, Masterzakk wrote: I think most jews are racist bastards

On second thought, you would probably frame that poster. You do know that there are Jews on NG. (me)

[Masterzakk]

At 11/15/08 01:40 AM, Ranger2 wrote:

At 11/14/08 10:35 PM, Masterzakk wrote: I think most jews are racist bastards

On second thought, you would probably frame that poster. You do know that there are Jews on NG. (me)

Empysis on the word MOST!! but then again i think 75 percent of the world are bastards so don't think your so special XD

[SadisticMonkey]

Or how about you let people express their opinions regardless of whether you agree with them or not, huh?

[Jizzlebang]

At 11/15/08 01:40 AM, Ranger2 wrote: You do know that there are Jews on NG. (me)

Yeah, well there are also Palistinians.

And other arabs as well.

[BetaOrionis]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't notice unless it were really really racist. And even then, I would just glance it over and say something racist under my breath, like "fuckin' Jews" or something, to see if I could make myself laugh.

Heh, I lolled already ^_^

[Alphabit]

There are many sides to every story and all sides have some substance. Maybe the posters do make a point which you should look into before tearing it down. If you want to tear a poster down, you should at least understand its point of view, otherwise you're just an arrogant fool who got caught up in his own conditioning.

[ReiperX]

As long as it was not on my personal property, then I would leave it up.

It's freedom of speech.

[Earfetish]

Fuck Israel. I really don't like the place. I don't like its history, I don't like what it stands for, and I don't like how it deals with its 'neighbours' whose land it invaded 60 years ago. The Palestinians and the Lebanese have absolutely every right to dislike Israel and it seems the only reason it still exists is because the US want to have a destabilising force in the Middle East so they can inflict their might.

If Israel relocated to, say, some tundra in Greenland, or maybe some state in America, I wouldn't have a problem. Why did they have to choose such a hostile place?

[marchohare]

At 11/14/08 09:40 PM, Ranger2 wrote: ...I'm sick of hearing about people with posters saying "Israel is the Fourth Reich." or "Ohmert = Hitler" or showing a picture of the Nazi flag and the Israeli one....

That would be hyperbole.

On the other hand, I think Israel's days of getting a pass because Jews were persecuted 60 years ago are about over. While I'm not in any way racist, I'll cop to being a "culturist," and there are some highly dysfunctional memes in Jewish culture. The politics of victimhood is one. The economics of usury is another. Clannishness is a third. If WASPs showed that kind of clannishness and preferential treatment of other WASPs, they'd be branded as bigots in a New York minute.

It's not the people. It's the culture. Jews make up only about 0.2% of the global population. Now, consider what percentage of the rich and famous are Jewish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jews are over-represented among the incredibly wealthy.

Why? It's not a "conspiracy," but it might as well be. I think if you look at those memes of clannishness and the acceptance of usury, you'll start to get the picture.

Saying blatantly racist, hateful things is destructive. Mere criticism is not. Obviously there are reasons why Jews come to be hated. Hate is not a proper response. Anger, however, is somewhat justifiable, and criticism is entirely appropriate.

Criticize the culture, not the person.

[bcdemon]

At 11/14/08 09:52 PM, His-Penis-is-on-Fire wrote: Anyone who is fucking racist enough to put up that kind of shit should be shot, so yeah, I'd tear it down. I'd tear it down and light it on fire because that's what it deserves.

Nice logic. You would shoot someone for expressing their feelings with a poster? So much for freedom of expression huh?

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

But I bet you're perfectly hunky dory with the wars USA has started with Muslim countries right?

[zoolrule]

At 11/15/08 09:14 AM, marchohare wrote:

At 11/14/08 09:40 PM, Ranger2 wrote: ...I'm sick of hearing about people with posters saying "Israel is the Fourth Reich." or "Ohmert = Hitler" or showing a picture of the Nazi flag and the Israeli one....

That would be hyperbole.

On the other hand, I think Israel's days of getting a pass because Jews were persecuted 60 years ago are about over. While I'm not in any way racist, I'll cop to being a "culturist," and there are some highly dysfunctional memes in Jewish culture. The politics of victimhood is one. The economics of usury is another. Clannishness is a third. If WASPs showed that kind of clannishness and preferential treatment of other WASPs, they'd be branded as bigots in a New York minute.

It never was like that.
Israel have been criticized since day 1, due to the Arab propaganda working over hours the last few decades.
Ironically it's the exact opposite, the western countries are over criticizing Israel BECAUSE Jews were persecuted, not in spite of. The westerns are trying to justify your persecution over the Jews, by saying - look they are just like us, which is horribly wrong considering how over humane Israel is.

It's not the people. It's the culture. Jews make up only about 0.2% of the global population. Now, consider what percentage of the rich and famous are Jewish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jews are over-represented among the incredibly wealthy.

What's wrong exactly with culture of ambitions and hard-working? (+Relatively talented people)

Why? It's not a "conspiracy," but it might as well be. I think if you look at those memes of clannishness and the acceptance of usury, you'll start to get the picture.

It's not a "conspiracy" but it might as well be? It just doesn't make sense, as smart as you try to sound.
Just like the Jews didn't poison the wells when the Black-Death bursted, just like the Jews didn't eat Christian kids on Passover.

Saying blatantly racist, hateful things is destructive. Mere criticism is not. Obviously there are reasons why Jews come to be hated. Hate is not a proper response. Anger, however, is somewhat justifiable, and criticism is entirely appropriate.

Criticize the culture, not the person.

It's not criticizing, it's propaganda. Pure Arab lies directed exactly to people like you.
Let me quote some article :

It has been said that the history of almost all of the Jewish holidays can be summed up succinctly: "They wanted to kill us; we won. Let's eat." Why has anti-Semitism been so pervasive in so many countries, in so many time periods and for so many reasons? (One begins to wonder. Perhaps there is something wrong with the Jews and Judaism? After all, there is an old Yiddish saying -- "If one person calls you a donkey, ignore him; if two people call you a donkey, buy a saddle.")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries.

Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

1. Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
2. Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
3. Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
4. Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
5. Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
6. Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

1. Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

2. Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

3. Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who are destroying our society."

4. Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices (claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). How come the accomplices are persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement through history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews], for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963 officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

5. Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes."

6. Racial Theory -- The overriding problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew - and members of every race, creed and color in the world have done so at one time or another.

Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. We Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and inferior race - but also for dominating the economy and taking over the world. We are hated for stubbornly maintaining our separateness - and, when we do assimilate - for posing a threat to racial purity through intermarriages. We are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex. It seems that we just can't win.

Now we know what are NOT the reasons for anti-Semitism.

Your message can be concluded with one word - Ass.

[marchohare]

At 11/15/08 09:38 AM, zoolrule wrote: ...a whole bunch of junk.

You're obviously reading what you think I meant, not what I actually wrote.

Go back, re-read my post, and address what I said. Or, if you prefer to look foolish, continue to put words in my mouth. But I guarantee, others here can read and comprehend, even if you can't.

[zoolrule]

At 11/15/08 09:46 AM, marchohare wrote:

At 11/15/08 09:38 AM, zoolrule wrote: ...a whole bunch of junk.

You're obviously reading what you think I meant, not what I actually wrote.

Go back, re-read my post, and address what I said. Or, if you prefer to look foolish, continue to put words in my mouth. But I guarantee, others here can read and comprehend, even if you can't.

I think you just did the exact same thing.
That's what i understood from your message, even after i re-read your post.
Maybe i really can't comprehend, but would you mind pointing out exactly what words i put into your mouse?

[zoolrule]

Mouth* ....

[marchohare]

At 11/15/08 10:23 AM, zoolrule wrote: ...would you mind pointing out exactly what words i put into your (mouth)?

Sure.

What's wrong exactly with culture of ambitions and hard-working?

I never said there was anything wrong with that. I said that the over-representation of Jews among the very rich was due to other factors, such as clannishness and preferential treatment of other Jews, and usury as an acceptable practice: so much so that attacks on usury have been called anti-Semitic.

They're not. They are attacks against a miserable business practice, regardless of who does it.

Just like the Jews didn't poison the wells when the Black-Death bursted, just like the Jews didn't eat Christian kids on Passover.

What the fuck? Where did you get that crap?

Incidentally, have you stopped torturing animals yet? Is your medication working?

It's not criticizing, it's propaganda. Pure Arab lies directed exactly to people like you.

Again, what the fuck? Your post doesn't even seem to be addressing me. Trust me, I know what's in my heart better than you do... obviously. Tell me, what do you mean by "people like you"?

[zoolrule]

At 11/15/08 10:36 AM, marchohare wrote:

At 11/15/08 10:23 AM, zoolrule wrote: ...would you mind pointing out exactly what words i put into your (mouth)?

Sure.

What's wrong exactly with culture of ambitions and hard-working?

I never said there was anything wrong with that. I said that the over-representation of Jews among the very rich was due to other factors, such as clannishness and preferential treatment of other Jews, and usury as an acceptable practice: so much so that attacks on usury have been called anti-Semitic.
They're not. They are attacks against a miserable business practice, regardless of who does it.

So how do any of this relate to the thread?

Just like the Jews didn't poison the wells when the Black-Death bursted, just like the Jews didn't eat Christian kids on Passover.

What the fuck? Where did you get that crap?

I was trying to prove a point. (Just for fun - These events did happen, in some places around the world people still believe Jews are eating Christian kids on Passover.

Incidentally, have you stopped torturing animals yet? Is your medication working?

I'm not really a animals torturing kind of guy. But no i didn't take my medications today.

It's not criticizing, it's propaganda. Pure Arab lies directed exactly to people like you.

Again, what the fuck? Your post doesn't even seem to be addressing me. Trust me, I know what's in my heart better than you do... obviously. Tell me, what do you mean by "people like you"?

Again, my whole message was about trying to understand how your message was connected to OP's topic. It was very hard to, but i thought you claimed the things being said about Israel are criticizing, when on reality, they are propaganda.

Because what does it have to do with anything :

"Obviously there are reasons why Jews come to be hated. Hate is not a proper response. Anger, however, is somewhat justifiable, and criticism is entirely appropriate."

It's not justifiable.

[Conspiracy3]

I'm not an Anti-Semite by any means, but the Pakistani people have lived in Israel for centuries and they deserve to live in their homeland. The israeli people have been out of Israel for thousands of years. Why do they deserve the land more than the people who actually grew up there?

[marchohare]

At 11/15/08 10:49 AM, zoolrule wrote: So how do any of this relate to the thread?

Your tone is getting much better.

It relates because I was pointing out where that anger comes from--and yes, discriminatory business practices and usury are justifiably associated with Jewish culture. Also, there are Israel's charming methods, like bulldozing Palestinian homes in the West Bank and Gaza.

Think that's not Nazi-like? Think again.

But I repeat: I was not talking about individuals, but policies and memes. Deplorable practices are deplorable practices no matter who does them. Israel doesn't get a pass. Neither do individual Jews simply because they are Jewish.

Of course anger is justifiable. Ask your shrink about that. Acting out is not, but that's a different matter.

I am not singling out the Jews, merely pointing out a few destructive memes in Jewish culture. I'll criticize any culture or sub-culture, including my own: in fact, if you're read much of what I've written on this BBS, you've seen me criticize my own bovine, white, middle-class American culture a lot.

Nobody gets a pass. Human beings can't afford to think that way anymore. Like it or not, globalism is here, and it's probably here to stay.

What kind of memes become accepted as Global Human Culture homogenizes is still up for grabs. We don't yet know what the coming "-ism" is going to look like.

I believe that question has become critical. We have to understand the reasons for so-called "hate speech" and "terrorism," because one man's terrorism is another man's fight for freedom. We have to understand the impulse behind hatred. Meeting hate with hate hasn't worked out very well. Every culture is going to have to come to terms with the fact that ALL cultures possess memes that are constructive, and memes that screw the pooch.

Barring complete global economic collapse, it's the only game in town.

[His-Penis-is-on-Fire]

At 11/15/08 09:26 AM, bcdemon wrote: Nice logic. You would shoot someone for expressing their feelings with a poster? So much for freedom of expression huh?

No, freedom of expression is expressing your views in a non-harmful, non-offensive way.

I'm so fucking sick of these stupid Muslim vs. Jew. Christian wars.

But I bet you're perfectly hunky dory with the wars USA has started with Muslim countries right?

I most certainly do fucking not. It was a typo. I meant to say "Muslim vs. Jew vs. Christian "wars.

[Korriken]

If i saw a poster that insulted Israel, i would just roll my eyes and keep walking. Personally I couldn't care less if Israel was wiped off the map. Personally I wouldn't care if the entire middle east was eradicated of human life, would make for less bad news on tv.

[Dromedary]

Even If it was blatant Racism, I would let it be, and probably barely even notice it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, freedom of speech and all that jazz. I wouldn't necceserily agree with it, but I would acknowledge that it probably has founding to it, and isn't just random 'Erghh Jewwage' rubbish.

Every story has a side, Everyone is bound to be Biased in one way or another.

[therealsylvos]

At 11/15/08 09:14 AM, marchohare wrote:

At 11/14/08 09:40 PM, Ranger2 wrote:

It's not the people. It's the culture. Jews make up only about 0.2% of the global population. Now, consider what percentage of the rich and famous are Jewish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jews are over-represented among the incredibly wealthy.

So should rich succesfull Jews give up their fame on money? You lack a point.

Why? It's not a "conspiracy," but it might as well be. I think if you look at those memes of clannishness and the acceptance of usury, you'll start to get the picture.

You've piqued my curiosity, What do you have against "usury"? Find me one bank that doesn't lend at interest.

[Saruman200]

At 11/14/08 09:40 PM, Ranger2 wrote: Israel, would you tear it down?
Personally, I would. I'm sick of hearing about people with posters saying "Israel is the Fourth Reich." or "Ohmert = Hitler" or showing a picture of the Nazi flag and the Israeli one.
If I saw a poster like that at school, I'd tear it down.

If it's racist BS like that, then hell yes I would tear it down. But if it's simply pointing out legitimate concerns about the things that are wrong with Israel (and there are things wrong with Israel) then I leave it up. Being against Israel does not mean you are racist.