Off Beat

[NeverHundred]

How do you change meters, or really even use a meter that isn't 4/4 without making a mess of a song?
Does anyone here have any advice, or could any one recommend any good examples (other than Tool) of meter changes being used effectively?

[loansindi]

Well if you mean using some other meter for a song from start to finish, that's not so hard.

If you mean changes WITHIN a song, that is trickier.

Basically, if I was to write a song with meter changes, it would involve very rigidly defined sections. This would be for my own playing sanity, but I've seen bands who change every few measures. That stuff is nuts. There's actually a genre called 'math metal' (terrible) that is all about this extremely technical and complex playing style.

I guess the only advice I can give you is mess around with it.

[Nav]

At 11/11/08 08:12 PM, NeverHundred wrote: How do you change meters, or really even use a meter that isn't 4/4 without making a mess of a song?
Does anyone here have any advice, or could any one recommend any good examples (other than Tool) of meter changes being used effectively?

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It's in 7/4 time :3

But seriously, changing meters is difficult in programs like FL, because you can't automate the meter. However, you can do some fun stuff with different time signatures! :P

[SMA]

You can do it the math rock way and alternate between two signatures each new measure. Or you can have the bridge in a signature different from the rest of the song. Or if you're doing the verse/chorus thing, you can have the verses in one signature, and the chorus in another. Or you can break your piece into sections, and change signatures once you come to a new bit. The possibilities are myriad.

[SMA]

But seriously, changing meters is difficult in programs like FL, because you can't automate the meter.

That's the one thing about FL Studio that annoys the living hell out of me. I'd love it if, at some point, they changed it so all you had to do was enter the signature you wanted, along with the shortest note division, like the old general midi programmes would do.

[NeverHundred]

At 11/11/08 08:22 PM, SMA wrote: You can do it the math rock way and alternate between two signatures each new measure. Or you can have the bridge in a signature different from the rest of the song. Or if you're doing the verse/chorus thing, you can have the verses in one signature, and the chorus in another. Or you can break your piece into sections, and change signatures once you come to a new bit. The possibilities are myriad.

That is a lot of technical advice. But I was thinking about how to arrange the beats, like with 4/4 it's really simple, 3/4 isn't too bad either.
But when ever I divide things by 7, 11, 10 I sometimes can't figure out the best ways to structure the rhythm. Especially when your thinking about how to smoothly change into a 7/4 from a 4/4 and considering how you're going to switch back if you wanted to later on.

[loansindi]

At 11/11/08 08:36 PM, NeverHundred wrote: That is a lot of technical advice. But I was thinking about how to arrange the beats, like with 4/4 it's really simple, 3/4 isn't too bad either.
But when ever I divide things by 7, 11, 10 I sometimes can't figure out the best ways to structure the rhythm. Especially when your thinking about how to smoothly change into a 7/4 from a 4/4 and considering how you're going to switch back if you wanted to later on.

Probably the best advice I can offer is just to try it. Figure out what seems to work, and what doesn't.

Listen to bands with weird time signatures and see what they do.

[SMA]

O, I see. As suggested above, structuring the actual beat is something you'll have to play with. It would be a good idea to study some tabs of drummers who use the odd signatures. Neal Peart comes to mind.

As for the transition, if abrupt isn't working for you, try letting the drums drop out while the music leads in to the new signature, or else let the song pause altogether, either with dead silence or a linger note.

[sorohanro]

The best advice that comes in my mind is, listen to Bulgarian music. They have very odd time signatures, 9/8 or 11/8 or 13/8 in their folklore, they also manage to dance on that :)) crazy people ...
anyway, I suggest to try to use grooves that keep going in odd signatures like Take_Five and having a good solid groove (Keep it Greasy -Frank Zappa some parts go on 19/16, or Lucky Seven-Dave Weckl 7/8).

[Phyrnna]

At 11/11/08 08:12 PM, NeverHundred wrote: How do you change meters, or really even use a meter that isn't 4/4 without making a mess of a song?
Does anyone here have any advice, or could any one recommend any good examples (other than Tool) of meter changes being used effectively?

As far as switching between meters, one way is to slow down the song at the transition point to make it easier to make that transition between meters. Another way is to switch between similar meters such as between 3/4 and 4/4.

[Zhuriel]

Listen to "Constant Motion" by Dream Theater. In the intro, the meter changes about every measure.

[Krank]

you can in fact change time signatures on the fly in cubase :), and automate them right into the song. the grid creatively adapts to said changes. you ca easily change tempos too everything stretches nicely

never done it before tho, but if youa re interested in this, cubase is for you

[S3C]

You can change time signatures in FL, not through the program, but you just have to be crafty with accenting and "overlapping" (I think that's the best word to use here) certain phrases and patterns into each other :)

At 11/11/08 08:12 PM, NeverHundred wrote: How do you change meters, or really even use a meter that isn't 4/4 without making a mess of a song?

You don't. If you're trying to change time signatures just for the sake of being complex, it can sound like a mess. I rarely use complex and asymetrical meters so I can't give great advice but I interchange 3/4 and 4/4 alot, 4/4 sounds like most everything you hear, while 3/4 feels waltzy, and maybe the composer wants to variate and or combine these type of feel. Another thing I'll hear in these types of music, is there might be a 4/4 bassline, that plays for five measures, while the rest of the parts play in 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, and then 4/4. The strongbeats change (could this just be called syncopation in 4/4? i've never understood what syncopation was, really) but mathematically it still measure up to 5 bars of 4/4. You can try that. Make a riff that's in 5/4, loop it for 12 bars. Make another riff that's in 4/4, loop it for 15 bars. And one that's in 3/4, for 20 bars. 60 is the LCD, and they all add up to each other. It's simple mathematics ^_^