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Proteas
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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 17:14:32 Reply

At 11/4/08 04:34 PM, poxpower wrote: How about you actually answer my point: how is porn more detrimental that junk food?

Porno has the potential to desensitize you to sexual activities, as well as cause you to objectify and abuse women if used to excess (as was stated in the study I cited in my last post). Junk food has the potential to cause obesity, heart disease, and diabetes.

The difference, and why I don't consider them an equal analogy?

Porno can cause a person to harm other, junk food only harms self.

hint: all the text is black when you pretty the "reply" button.

So you reply to people's posts before you fully read them on the bbs first? And you're calling us nimrods?

Uh yes, in light of the fact that you claim you didn't insult me.

I didn't make personal insults about you that did not pertain to the discussion at hand. I'm calling you an idiot based on what you post, I don't know you in real life and can't make that kind of judgment call to know whether or not you're actually an idiot or just trolling everyone.

"PROVE THAT X DOESN'T DO X" is proving a negative. "PROVE THAT THERE IS NO X" = proving a negative.

Fine, I'm asking you to prove a negative, and you really can't prove your case because you can't defend the validity of your points when they're refuted, if you would bother to defend them instead of acting like everyone else is an idiot for disagreeing with you. You lose.

These are all completely worthless points and are only arguments if you say "well the status quo should be preserved! Anything that changes it must be bad!".

So you're for the abuse and objectification of women, then? My aren't we holding society's best interests at heart.

How did they determine that? What questions where asked?

They subject the participants in the study to pornography on a regular basis for a set period of time, it was spelled out in the post I made.

In other words: probably bullshit.

Okay, what are your credentials to make such a statement then? I mean, besides the fact that the guy is a conservative who happens to hold a different political viewpoint than your own?

At 11/4/08 04:44 PM, poxpower wrote: - Slap a girl if she asks for it during sex?
- Have sex with many women at once?
- Have sex with a midget? The midget is also gay. He has a mustache, but it has no soup stains.

Only if proper consent is not given, then it's sexual assault or rape. Although I'd be curious to know how one man can gang rape a bunch of women all at once.... he'd have to have a huge stockpile of duct tape and chloroform....

- Put peanut butter on your crotch so you dog licks it off

Potential case of animal abuse... but I'd think it would be a gray area as the dog is willing to lick the peanut butter.

- Mistake your ass for a crisper and lose a cucumber or two in it

Idiocy is not a crime, unfortunately.

- Give a blowjob to a guy in a locker room. He's clean.

Again, it's an issue of consent.

- For a girl to hit a guy during sex? He's got bruises after but she totally thinks it's cute

Potential case for spousal/domestic abuse.

- Two girls to finger each other while saying dirty things like "Jesus was a dark skinned man"

Again, issue of consent. And Jesus was from what is now the Palestinian West Bank, so he would have been a medium to dark skinned Arab anyway.

- A guy to make a robot goat for the express purpose of fucking the shit out of it

Robot =/= living sentient human being, therefore no moral issue involved.

- Own more than 20 didos and/or 10 different penis pumps
- Buy a real doll

Nothing inherently wrong with it, but if you have enough money to buy a real doll then there's something really sad to be said about your social skills that you can't get laid with a REAL human being.

Are you going anywhere with this, or do you intend to actually defend your points about exposing children to porno anytime soon? This is getting boring.


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KeithHybrid
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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 17:19:32 Reply

At 11/4/08 04:44 PM, poxpower wrote: Questions for Proteas and anyone else:

Is it wrong to:

- Slap a girl if she asks for it during sex?

If she gives you explicit permision, I don't see why not.

- Have sex with many women at once?

If they want it, why not?

- Have sex with a midget? The midget is also gay. He has a mustache, but it has no soup stains.

If he wants it, go get 'em, trooper.

- Put peanut butter on your crotch so you dog licks it off

No. That's just wrong, plus illegal.

- Mistake your ass for a crisper and lose a cucumber or two in it

...WHAT?

- Give a blowjob to a guy in a locker room. He's clean.

I dunno...are there people around?

- For a girl to hit a guy during sex? He's got bruises after but she totally thinks it's cute

Not unless he wants to be hit during sex.

- Two girls to finger each other while saying dirty things like "Jesus was a dark skinned man"

As long as I don't see it, you can do whatever you want.

- A guy to make a robot goat for the express purpose of fucking the shit out of it

His business, not mine.

- Own more than 20 didos and/or 10 different penis pumps

See my previous answer.

- Buy a real doll

Why? Are there fake dolls?

However, what does all this have to do with exposing children to pornography and sex? I'm seeing no corelation.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 17:46:28 Reply

Okay heres why porn is bad for children.

In todays society Women are given fear of sex, anything sexual and shit like that. So basically they are told by society to be prudes and never act on any sexual urges they gain but both adults and peers. If Males children get into porn, their body will want more sexual attention, thinking its having a real sex life. The child will eventually want the real thing, the girl will be a prude and be all like "NO! NO!" and bam! The child is sent to jail for rape and the prude goes on to lead an extremely pressured and stressful life.

Proteas
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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 17:49:32 Reply

At 11/4/08 05:19 PM, KeithHybrid wrote: Why? Are there fake dolls?

RealDoll.com NSFW. Basically they are life-size life-like sex dolls that run up into the thousands. The website says they are great for photography purposes and people needing a dummy to model clothes on, but honestly... who's going to spend $5k on a fully anatomically correct doll and not have sex with it a few times?

However, what does all this have to do with exposing children to pornography and sex? I'm seeing no corelation.

Nothing, he's just trying to see who will respond unfavorably so he can poke fun at them for being uptight religious fundamentalists whom he won't take seriously in this debate. I was raised in a conservative household and he knows it, despite the fact that I have shown in the past that I am not one to tow a party line, however I've never discussed my opinions of kinky sex.


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poxpower
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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 17:55:45 Reply

At 11/4/08 05:14 PM, Proteas wrote:
Porno can cause a person to harm other

So far there is no study that shows that deviants are deviant because of porn or by being exposed to porn at a young age.

In fact I doubt you could even do such a study ethically. Hence why I say the proof is not there.

I didn't make personal insults about you that did not pertain to the discussion at hand. I'm calling you an idiot based on what you post, I don't know you in real life and can't make that kind of judgment call to know whether or not you're actually an idiot or just trolling everyone.

Now it's getting sad.
Btw your mom's weight is cause for concern. She is so corpulent that vast schools of krill scurry away when she approaches a body of salt water.

Fine, I'm asking you to prove a negative, and you really can't prove your case

No shit, you're committing a logical fallacy. If you consider fallacies as legitimate arguments, then no one on this planet can win against you or prove you wrong.

I don't see the studies. All I see is wild speculation.
I see pretty much the same sorts of argument you'd hear against video games like GTA or for pushing violent movies away from kids. No one can prove anything but they see fit to assume that since kids are influencable, they'll actually be significantly changed by movies or games or porn or whatever.
I think it's just fear-mongering by people who feel like their traditional values are being challenged and who want to make sure nothing changes because they're afraid of the "moral decay".

So you're for the abuse and objectification of women, then?

Huh there was nothing about abuse of women in the points I isolated.
And what the fuck is "objectification of women". From what I gather, it's a feminist buzzword from the 60s and 70s that really means "men just want sex and then they don't talk to us boohoo".

What is it, really? And why is it so damn bad? So what if I just want to fuck some girl? Girls can just fuck guys, but guys can't fuck girls?
What about gay porn? Does that "objectify gay males"?

They subject the participants in the study to pornography on a regular basis for a set period of time, it was spelled out in the post I made.

No, I am asking you the specific of how he came to the conclusion that porn makes people think rape is "not criminal".
I haven't heard anything about that. It sure sounds like bullshit to me, mainly because it's oddly specific and bizarre.

Okay, what are your credentials to make such a statement then?

Skepticism.
He seems to be heavily promoted by religious sites and sites made by mothers to "protect the children".
His main area of "helping people" is "porn addiction", which frankly, sounds made up. I'll go look it up right now.
A quick sweep of wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography _addiction#Skeptics_of_Addiction
Reveals that this sounds DANGEROUSLY like a made-up disease that is just blamed for troubles caused in marriages and in individual's lives when their moral code or that of their peers clash with their newfound love of porn.

And seriously, it sounds retarded as fuck. Just think about it for 5 seconds. Porn addiction? Why isn't there a tv addiction? Where's that group? Why not a video game addiction? How can you even be addicted to porn? What does that mean? You have to watch porn?
Who gives a shit if you have to watch porn? I smell a shitload of placebo effect in there and a lot of misplaced guilt. From reading the whole paper, it sounds like everyone is dumping all these bad vibes on the patient, making him feel like he's BAD and FUCKED UP for wanting porn and that HE MUST STOP AT ALL COSTS!

Well let's hope they find a cure for porn addiction one day! And let's hope it's not genetic either! hahaha


Although I'd be curious to know how one man can gang rape

rape? I never mentioned rape. I didn't even imply it. Or even think about it when I posted that.
:o
I wonder why you associated these weird sex situations with rape so fast. Maybe I should devote a whole paragraph to psychoanalyze you and then say how I'm just insulting you based on your arguments, so it's actually alright.

Robot =/= living sentient human being, therefore no moral issue involved.

Yes but the goat is very realistic. It even poops if you fill it up with grass.

Are you going anywhere with this

refer to Drakim.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:03:36 Reply

At 11/4/08 05:49 PM, Proteas wrote:
At 11/4/08 05:19 PM, KeithHybrid wrote:
Nothing, he's just trying to see who will respond unfavorably so he can poke fun at them for being uptight religious fundamentalists whom he won't take seriously in this debate.

I didn't think there was. I still believe this is an extremely elaborate hoax. I mean, seriously, there is no way a mod can be nearly that stupid...


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:27:47 Reply

i fucking love porn! as a kid i loved it too! i dont get it either. when i was 12 to now it is a factor in my happiness....i think it kids were introduced to it at a younger age they would be happy and not be such little pricks

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:30:26 Reply

At 11/4/08 04:44 PM, poxpower wrote: Is it wrong to:

Morally or practically?
That's the distinction you REFUSE to make.

Because no one, NO ONE has argued that these things are morally reprehensible in any way. What we've CONSISTENTLY argued, and PROVIDED STRONG EVIDENCE in support of which is that these things are not indicative of a person who has a healthy attitude to sex.

The argument isn't why porn is morally wrong to show to children, the argument is why YOU think it's fine in a practical sense despite the obvious problems it can cause.

Notice how everyone who says "no porn to kids" is STILL showing favor towards sex ed? That's because we're not narrow-sighted nimrods who don't read people's posts.

You're essentially arguing that porn should be allowed to kids because it's somehow educational. This is what's bullshit.

Equating porn to sound sex education is like equating driver's ed to destruction derbys. "Same diff" right? Loser.....

Here's what I think happened:

You made this thread thinking the only objections you'd face would be "this isn't right because my religion says so".

When you got only responses that had to do with what is sexually healthy, the adolescence of children, and the observed desensitization that occurs with porn use, you threw a hissy-fit.

You keep trying this "is this right or wrong" thing to bring it back to ethics, when it's clear that practically speaking: Kids are NOT mature enough to handle porn.

Hence the regulation.
And it's the same for cars, guns, voting, tobacco, and alcohol.

And neither you nor (apparently) Drakim can seem to get it through your heads that NOBODY GIVES A SHIT about the ethics behind it; We care about the FACT that porn can have negative effects on the health and normative development of children due to their immaturity.

Actually, this is a good point, despite being shaped in a way that will past over people's heads.

No, it's a stupid point, because morals have nothing to do with this.

No, there's nothing wrong with the list ethically. Nobody cares.

But that list CLEARLY represents someone who does not have a healthy or normal understanding of sex and intimacy.

A better question would be this:

Do you consider someone to:

- Slap a girl if she asks for it during sex?
- Have sex with many women at once?
- Have sex with a midget? The midget is also gay. He has a mustache, but it has no soup stains.
- Put peanut butter on your crotch so you dog licks it off
- Mistake your ass for a crisper and lose a cucumber or two in it
- Give a blowjob to a guy in a locker room. He's clean.
- For a girl to hit a guy during sex? He's got bruises after but she totally thinks it's cute
- Two girls to finger each other while saying dirty things like "Jesus was a dark skinned man"
- A guy to make a robot goat for the express purpose of fucking the shit out of it
- Own more than 20 didos and/or 10 different penis pumps
- Buy a real doll

have a NORMAL, HEALTHY, and POSITIVE outlook on sex and sexuality?

Because frankly, I can GUARANTEE that if you walked down the street and met a guy who:
Lost cucumbers in his ass
Owns 10 dildos
bought a Blow-up doll
sits inside all day watching porn

you would agree with me in that they don't have the healthiest outlook towards sex or relationships. Moreover, you'd agree with me there's something wrong with this individual.

So here's my challenge to Drakim and tamPox:

Can you STOP making references to religion and ethics and morality, and whatever shit-stained goggles you have on, and START looking at the objective facts presented on why letting kids watch porn MIGHT cause some development problems?

Or are you two just gonna sit there in your "I hate religion" corners and ignore the issue some more?

Drakim, your smart license has been revoked.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:31:48 Reply

Population Control, pure and simple.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:34:51 Reply

A quick sweep of wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography _addiction#Skeptics_of_Addiction

Reveals that this sounds DANGEROUSLY like a made-up disease that is just blamed for troubles caused in marriages and in individual's lives when their moral code or that of their peers clash with their newfound love of porn.

Notice how that paragraph is COMPLETELY UNSOURCED?

I clicked the "who" right next to those "statements":

Guess what I got?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:A void_weasel_words
"Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources. The "who?" link is used because a Wikipedia editor feels that the preceding statement uses weasel words. Weasel words give the force of authority to a statement without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed."

If you think a completely unsourced, weasel word statement about skepticism sounds "Dangerously" like a made up disease, you go ahead and think that, based on completely unverifiable sources.

Of course, did you bother to look at what IS sourced in that article?

Yeah, didn't think so.....

You went straight to what you wanted to hear, and ignored anything that didn't fit, DESPITE wiki SPECIFICALLY saying "This is probably bullshit".

You're an idiot.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:38:02 Reply

At 11/3/08 01:39 AM, poxpower wrote: I don't get any of the arguments for keeping kids away from porn.

Why?
You hear all the time how kids shouldn't see tits on tv or how it would destroy them to stumble on a porn site. But seriously, why? What the fuck are they gonna do?

What's the argument for pushing sex ed to as late as possible? As far as I remember, as a kid, me and my friends were pretty keen on seeing a nude pair of tits. It was in fact AWESOME. That is the opposite of "traumatizing".

And I also don't get the "innocence" argument and how that is tied to sex.

And for that matter, why censor certain web pages and contents for kids? Why can't a 2 year old play Mortal Kombat? What the fuck is he gonna do? Try to uppercut the head of other kids? Kids already beat the shit out of other kids, they don't need video games to get the idea. In fact it's the kids who don't play video games who beat up the ones who play the most games.

EXPLAIN THIS UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN TO ME

well the main reson is that parents are afraid teens are going to go out and have unprotected sex, witch then brings STDs and unplanned babys. Also its that some religions say that sex and porn are wrong, therefore public schools have to compincate for these beleifs due to the freedom of religion act.
The same thing goes for video games, they are trying to keep violance to a downlow, and some smart woman, not really, Hillary Clinton, came up with the idea of the rating system. Actualy if you will notice in england and other countries they dont have laws like that. they even allow porn on public tv.
i beleve these good and bad, in ways but i dont have kids, in fact i am a kid, so my veiws of the subject are going to be kinda favord to what i wanna do.
on the subject of the kids who play more video games get into less fights then those who dont, i totaly agree, as i can say first hand, as i play alot of video games, but have only gotten into one fight.
tho the reason for this is the kids who play video games are not as active and therefore not willing to fight because they do not want to get hurt, or get hit in the mouth with a mushroom in my case.
but back on the issue of porn and sex, it was also introduced to reduce child porn, not as a primary reson but more as a secondary "hey, did you know if we did this , this would also happen" type deal.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:40:59 Reply

At 11/4/08 05:55 PM, poxpower wrote: So far there is no study that shows that deviants are deviant because of porn or by being exposed to porn at a young age.

Which is a logical statement as the only studies we have involve adults. But as with violent television and it's studies with teens, it's not much of a stretch of the imagination to show that teens or younger children might react the same way to pornography.

Btw your mom's weight is cause for concern. She is so corpulent that vast schools of krill scurry away when she approaches a body of salt water.

If you're trying to goad me into making an ACTUAL personal attack on you, it's not working, you'll have to try harder than that.

No shit, you're committing a logical fallacy.

And your committing an appeal to ignorance by acting like your own argument is correct because no one can prove it conclusively wrong.

I don't see the studies. All I see is wild speculation.

There are studies in those links, the problem is that you're being stubborn about recognizing their credibility, of which you certainly have NONE. Which is why I will -- and I ask that no one else -- not bring any more articles into this thread. If pox isn't willing to accept anything less than a medical journal article on the subject in what is supposed to be a casual internet debate, I suggest you not waste your time.

No one can prove anything but they see fit to assume that since kids are influencable, they'll actually be significantly changed by movies or games or porn or whatever.

They are easily influenced, they're kids, and you've shown to believe that they are as well. Or do you honestly believe that my parents didn't infect me with their "Victorian" mindset that you were joking about earlier?

Huh there was nothing about abuse of women in the points I isolated.

The study showed that the participants attitudes towards women had changed. Please don't tell me that you are unable to realize that these men would carry this attitude into the real world and apply it to their personal lives.

And what the fuck is "objectification of women".

Viewing a woman as a sexual object not deserving of basic human respect.

No, I am asking you the specific of how he came to the conclusion that porn makes people think rape is "not criminal"

Why don't you find the guy's e-mail and ASK HIM then?

Skepticism.

So being an armchair skeptic makes you more qualified than a phd who spends his time researching the subject endlessly?

Reveals that this sounds DANGEROUSLY like a made-up disease that is just blamed for troubles caused in marriages and in individual's lives when their moral code or that of their peers clash with their newfound love of porn.

When the newfound love of porn wrecks your social life, bank account, and marriage, and shows all the similar signs of alcholishm and drug abuse, what would you call it?

I wonder why you associated these weird sex situations with rape so fast.

The question was "is [this] wrong?" I said, it would only be wrong IF consent wasn't given. Forced sex without consent equals rape, or at the least, sexual assault and battery.

I like red-heads and japanese AV models, for future references.

refer to Drakim.

Ok, going with his point "many people think several of the things on this list to be wrong, but feel that's it's not their duty to do anything about it." I didn't think of this was wrong as most of it involves two consenting adults who know that their actions are.

Now, how does this relate to this topic, and do you at ANY point intend to defend your opening posts whatsoever? Or do you intend to continue this charade?


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:44:14 Reply

I love it tampox,

On the one hand you have this section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography _addiction#Pornography_addiction_accordi ng_to_Irons_and_Schneider

And the reference:
http://www.jenniferschneider.com/article s/diagnos.html
Notice: Scholarly article, M.D and PH.D authors

On the other hand you have this section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography _addiction#Skeptics_of_Addiction

COMPLETELY unsourced, with Wiki telling you with "who" and "citation needed" that there's weasel words and issues with verification.

and which passage did you adhere to?
The one completely unsourced, against the one written by DOCTORS.

Man of science indeed Tampox, man of science indeed..........


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 18:54:08 Reply

everthing in this world is base on a factor of right or wrong, what most people think is that there is a predetermined right, and a predetermand wrong, when in actulaty it is all based on a just or unjust system that then branches off. for example
sex is bad
personA:Yes...personB:No
there for for person A it is right and for person B it is wrong, it will then branch off into another just/unjust question, for example
sex is only bad recreationaly
(now person B yes, but we are now adding in a new group of people, personC)
personA:Yes...personB:Yes...personC:no
now person C is the group that branches off from B, beliving sex is good, but only for reproduction, not recreation. this then continues, with any subject
this is how scientists classify things, except they use other characteristics such as color, length, habbitat, density, and so on. does this help


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 22:56:46 Reply

At 11/4/08 06:40 PM, Proteas wrote: I like red-heads and japanese AV models, for future references.

You are my new best friend. :D


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 23:17:20 Reply

(Sorry if somebody already said this, but I didn't want to read through 4 pages)

Look, the only reason anything sexual is considered inappropriate, taboo, etc. is because sex is a basic human instinct. If we can deprive lots of people of a basic human instinct, it creates mass hysteria, which creases the need to put all your faith into something, which makes everybody easier to control.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-04 23:46:51 Reply

Well, what if some kids enjoy porn even if we have to keep it away from them? What if they're really eager to get into this sort of thing?

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 05:56:24 Reply

At 11/4/08 06:34 PM, Imperator wrote:
"Weasel words are words

I guess you assumed I didn't check anywhere else first.
http://www.canada.com/topics/lifestyle/r elationships/story.html?id=3c0f656f-4d3e -411a-97e2-c63aede3a4b4

From all the sites I can read, this disease seems about as hard to pin down as ADD. Frankly, it sounds made up and it's up to the doctor to decide if he wants to treat it or not, if it counts as a disease all by itself or if it's actually just a sympton of something else. From all the evidence, it seems to me you can get addicted just as hard on Star Wars and collecting Pringles lids as you can get addicted to Porn.

in fact, maybe a diagnosable case right here?: http://gizmodo.com/357908/the-biggest-st ar-wars-collection-in-the-galaxy

Imagine if that guy came to the doctor complaining that he was so obsessed with Star Wars that he spent too much money on it, too much time away from his friends etc. ( basically all the arguments in the article with the porn addicts). I imagine the guy would try to help him, being a doctor. So if he got to treat, say, 300 of them ( wow big numbers!!!!! ) in 20 years, he'd publish a paper on "STAR WARS ADDICTION!!!!".

Hahaha. Then I imagine you'd see those papers and buzzwords recycled and circulated in whatever circles oppose Star Wars for whatever stupid personal reasons.

I know how this game works.

At 11/4/08 06:40 PM, Proteas wrote:
Which is a logical statement as the only studies we have involve adults. But as with violent television and it's studies with teens, it's not much of a stretch of the imagination to show that teens or younger children might react the same way to pornography.

Key word: your imagination.
Especially considering you've been raised in a conservative household that had conservative views about sex. Maybe you have biased opinions? Food for thought.


No shit, you're committing a logical fallacy.
And your committing an appeal to ignorance by acting like your own argument is correct because no one can prove it conclusively wrong.

No I don't claim it's right, just like I don't claim there's no Sasquatch. But show him to me cause I'm a skeptic.

If pox isn't willing to accept anything less than a medical journal article on the subject in what is supposed to be a casual internet debate, I suggest you not waste your time.

Huh welcome to the real world, where you need actual proof when you make claims.
It's not an impossible demand to ask for a frickin scientific paper. There's millions in the world. There's even some referred to in the articles, but the conclusions seem twisted by the people who write the articles to serve their own ends, because, just like you, they admit it's "inconclusive" and that the link between porn and violence, pedophiles, women abuse etc. is vague at best.

They are easily influenced, they're kids, and you've shown to believe that they are as well.

I sure do, but my argument is that if they're so easy to influence, then I can start making all sorts of crazy claims about superman making them jump out of buildings and Star Wars making them choke each other with chains. I can push it as far as I want if I'm just speculating, like you.

Kids are obviously easy to influence, but to me, it's quite unclear to which degree and how permanent the effects are going to be for seeing, say, a couple porno movies.

Huh there was nothing about abuse of women in the points I isolated.
The study showed that the participants attitudes towards women had changed.

How is that "abuse"? That's not even clear at all. That's just you making wild guesses once again.
You have to be pretty damn bad to reach ABUSE and that word was NOT mentioned.


Viewing a woman as a sexual object not deserving of basic human respect.

"not deserving of basic human respect"? Where did you get that? That sounds like a lie because that would translate into making women not vote, for instance. Which was around before porn.

Please tell me the concrete effects of this. What exactly do those evil "women objectifiers" do?

Why don't you find the guy's e-mail and ASK HIM then?

Maybe I will.
Though that was 30 years ago, he's probably dead by now.

So being an armchair skeptic makes you more qualified than a phd who spends his time researching the subject endlessly?

Huh I don't have to take the word of one single guy on something like complex and controversial like that. That's not skepticism. I'm looking at as many expert statements as I can find and frankly, most of them have really nebulous conclusions on the subjects and differing opinions.

Hence I conclude that it's not in the realm of hard facts, but of moral judgments and opinions.

When the newfound love of porn wrecks your social life, bank account, and marriage, and shows all the similar signs of alcholishm and drug abuse, what would you call it?

I don't remember anything about physical withdrawal or health detriments. Under your definition, people who play Donkey Kong until they beat the world record are addicted. People who watch movies all day are addicted.

If you read the research, it's clear that the only reason he considered it an addiction was because HE and HIS PATIENTS thought it was something to be ASHAMED OF. That's not medical, that's bullshit. And if you check further, he wasn't seeking THEM out, they were SENT TO HIM! He didn't realize they needed help until they were sent to him BY PEOPLE OFTEN OTHER THAN THEM WHO ALSO THOUGHT PORN WAS DISTASTEFUL, BEGGING FOR HELP. People with clear religious and conservative persuasions at that.

Sorry, but there's a plethora of red flags there. If this was an addiction, there would be thousands of people currently addicted to porn, it would wreak many lives and you'd hear about it OUTSIDE THE BIBLE BELT and Feminist rallies.


Ok, going with his point "many people think several of the things on this list to be wrong, but feel that's it's not their duty to do anything about it." I didn't think of this was wrong as most of it involves two consenting adults who know that their actions are.

fine.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 08:09:55 Reply

At 11/4/08 06:30 PM, Imperator wrote:
You're essentially arguing that porn should be allowed to kids because it's somehow educational. This is what's bullshit.

Equating porn to sound sex education is like equating driver's ed to destruction derbys. "Same diff" right?

;;;;;;
I believe what Imperator has wriitten here, sums up my views.
The difference between Porn & Sex education is IMO as different as night & day.
Porn is not the kind of educational material that is suitable for any child.
Sex Ed is not about porn !


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 11:10:02 Reply

Poxpower: I believe that I am right because everyone else is biased against my opinion and I can't find any research that isn't biased.

Everyone else: You can't find anything you don't think is biased because you are wrong and you can't decern between the merits of scientific studies, including their implications, and your own opinions.

Even simpler:

Poxpower: you're right, I'm wrong, stop changing the subject.

Everyone else: No pox, you're wrong.

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 11:37:23 Reply

At 11/5/08 08:09 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
Porn is not the kind of educational material that is suitable for any child.
Sex Ed is not about porn !

I never claimed porn was educational or meant to be.
He's just coming up with straw men arguments, as per usual.

At 11/5/08 11:10 AM, Brian wrote: Poxpower: I believe that I am right because everyone else is biased against my opinion and I can't find any research that isn't biased.

There is unbiased research, it just doesn't support the claim that porn is really bad for kids.

Go away


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 12:19:39 Reply

At 11/5/08 11:37 AM, poxpower wrote: There is unbiased research, it just doesn't support the claim that porn is really bad for kids.

Go away

I've yet to see you post a scrap of it, so no, I won't. Give me links, feel free to embed them and hide them with in tricksy words if you choose to or to post them in that ugly version of garbled URL-ness.

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 12:51:14 Reply

At 11/4/08 04:44 PM, poxpower wrote: Questions for Proteas and anyone else:

Is it wrong to:

- Slap a girl if she asks for it during sex?

She has to ask? :O
It's ok.

- Have sex with many women at once?

I see nothing wrong.

- Have sex with a midget? The midget is also gay. He has a mustache, but it has no soup stains.

While the gayness is tempting, the mustache isn't for me. He's all your pox

- Put peanut butter on your crotch so you dog licks it off

Yeah, it's a little weird and bordering on bestiality.

- Mistake your ass for a crisper and lose a cucumber or two in it

Vegetables are bad for you, but if you're into it, go ahead.

- Give a blowjob to a guy in a locker room. He's clean.

As long as I'm not in the locker room, have fun.

- For a girl to hit a guy during sex? He's got bruises after but she totally thinks it's cute

Only if he was asking for it. But if he's not man enough to stop it, he deserves it. But it's a crime anyways, so it's wrong.

- Two girls to finger each other while saying dirty things like "Jesus was a dark skinned man"

We all know Jesus wasn't a man silly. They can say whatever they want.

- A guy to make a robot goat for the express purpose of fucking the shit out of it

No worse than a fleshlight, but it's a little weird.

- Own more than 20 didos and/or 10 different penis pumps

I see no reason to have twenty statues of Dido, but I'm sure it's ok.

- Buy a real doll

Weird, but ok.

So yeah, didn't see anyone debate with my previous post, I'm assuming that it's either solid or been said before.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 20:50:27 Reply

Here's my two cents:

1. When/how to allow children to view "objectionable" material is something that should be left up to individual parents and no one else. Everyone's going to have a different parenting style, and even two completely contradictory ones can both be somewhat right.

2. While I have to disagree with your view that viewing porn or extreme violence at a very young age isn't going to be damaging (just ask any of the billions of people with traumatic childhood experiences related to such things), I do think that the social stigma of sex is blown ridiculously out of proportion.

The FCC sparks a media frenzy and charges multiple six-figure fines because Janet Jackson's boob appears on national television for three seconds, yet they have no problem with the nigh-constant grisly corpses on "C.S.I." or the routine lobotomies on "Heroes." Extremely, recklessly violent video games are casually slapped with an "M" rating and are consistently bought for 10-year-olds while a secret sex minigame in GTA: San Andreas results in retailer bans, an automatic "AO" rating, and, you guessed it, fines and a media frenzy. Flash a tit on the silver screen and you're looking at a hard "R," but the Joker's neat little magic pencil trick can be easily viewed by a child of any age without parental accompaniment.

My point is this: for some reason, in this country, we treat fictionalized acts of destroying life with casual nonchalance, but we treat fictionalized acts of creating it (not to mention something so innocuous as a bare breast or saying the word "fuck" more than once) with abhorrence and moral outrage, and it's more than a little ridiculous. I'm not suggesting that anything be banned or censored to any more of a degree than it already is. In fact, less all-inclusive censorship (but more private censorship options for parents) would be a much better system. What I'm saying is that perhaps our perception of what is and is not "acceptable" needs serious re-evaluation.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 21:25:33 Reply

Clearly Pox is looking for something that is entirely objectivist in nature. The problem about such a thing is that objectivism requires a medium of measurement in order to judge if something is ultimately good or bad.

If the APA is assumed to be trustworthy in it's analysis, which i DO consider it to be, then we can assume that the following statement is assumed to be factually correct:

Subjectivity, particularly child subjectivity to pornography and sexual images creates a distorted view of sexual relations between men and women where the male physically and emotionally dominates the female.

Think about it this way, why is it of more value that childeren get to experience sexual activities a few years younger than they're biologically or mentally designed to, than it is for these individuals to grow up with more respect and understanding of females and sexual relationship. Which one is more important for the developement of a functional family? which one is going to be of more value when individuals of that era are raising childeren of their own? If nothing else, i can imagine that this new wave of aggressive masculinity does little for the man but ruin his family and most importantly, ruin his most valuable fiscal investment for the future and for society; HIS childeren. After all, there have been no medical or psychological journals, widely acknowledged or respected atleast, that state that a dysfunctional family is beneficial for childeren.


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 22:01:44 Reply

In the court case Ginsberg vs. New York, the court ruled that there was sufficient evidence that porn harmed children to allow states to ban porn from children.

I haven't seen the evidence though.

But yeah that's why places get to ban porn.

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 22:46:46 Reply

At 11/3/08 01:45 AM, BetaOrionis wrote:
If you grow up with porn, it'll lose it's luster. Seriously, how much porn can you watch before it gets dull. I think I may have watched 5 total hours of porn in my life and I'm already sick of it. It was only cool when I wasn't allowed. Let the kids have a good time, being good little rebels.

This man speaks truth. I'm already really bored of porn and I'm not worried about kids seeing a pair of naked breasts (of the female variety) or anything. But some of the hardcore porn that's on the internet concerns me. I'm only 19 and yeah, I am actually pretty concerned about what type of generation we're breeding if we allow all this unabashed access to hardcore porn wherein they degrade women and act out seriously sadistic fetishes.

People who argue about violent cartoons or videogames being dangerous are wrong, there's a disconnect because they're very artficial and unrealistic. But porn and by porn I don't mean the old school flicks with plots I mean fucking chicks throats and slapping them around calling them little whorebags and shit, that is very graphic and real and I'll be damned if watching hours of that doesn't damage a kid's psychology because it certainly has messed with mine.

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 23:05:50 Reply

At 11/3/08 05:23 PM, Bramly-apple wrote:
And how many kids watch Naruto and didn't manage to kill their friends?

Irrelevant, they still imitate it.

I agree with you about kids needing to be bought up more mature, and the best to make develope maturity is to give kids the responsibility to fend for themselves sometimes.

Parents need to teach their children better than they do. just putting your kid in front of a tv to let em watch imported cartoons of superhuman fighters beating each other to death and slinging energy balls around and not teaching them anything is begging for trouble. Maturity needs to be taught, its not something that develops naturally.

well.... it CAN, under the right conditions, but kids today are not in that kind of environment. Today's environment teaches children to be irresponsible and outright stupid. Kids today can gorge themselves on food and not have to hunt it down or grow it. and many parents don't lift a finger to control their kid. (hence, why they are fat bastards) They have little control over their children, even in a public place. Either that or they simply try to keep their kid in line by yelling and threatening them with a beating every time they step out of line and the kid doesn't learn any respect for the parents. In time the kid is too old to beat, the kid knows it, and knows the parents can no longer effectively do anything to them.

Which brings me to my next point. Kids today are not taught respect. They neither give it nor do they receive it. When a parent calls on their kid, you usually hear "What?" often in an annoyed tone. Parents should never tolerate such behavior. they need to teach their children to respect them, and in turn they should respect their children. On the flip side, Parents need to stop spoiling their children by giving them what they want when they want it. Make them EARN their keep, even if its by doing menial chores around the house. Also too many parents are too willing to bend to their child's will just to make them stop whatever they are doing. If the child says "I want" and you say "no" and the child makes a scene, punish the child, don't reward such behavior by saying "ok fine, just shut up." Remind the child that they are only embarrassing themselves by making a scene and go about your day as usual. show the little punk brat that you are not phased by his behavior. When you get home, punish the child in a way that will torment em. For instance, taking away something they like, perhaps their video game or radio, computer, or phone privileges.

Remind your children who is in control and who will remain in control. YOU. If your child decides to try turning rebel, handle the situation accordingly. as he tries to overpower you by acting worse and worse, keep piling on the punishment, all the while, letting the kid know he can end his suffering at any time by apologizing and acting right.

If your kid breaks the law, let em go to prison. Don't bail the little bastard out. Let em have a taste of real life. Too many parents try to shield their children from the "real world" then later the child becomes an adult, enters the real world and gets swept away by bad influences.

Basically what I'm trying to say is this: Keep your child's life in perspective. Don't allow them to believe that they are in control of anything that they are not indeed in control of. Make them personally responsible for their own actions, but still push them in the right direction. make them do their homework before they do anything fun. assert the necessity of a good education. If the child falters, put em back in the right path. if they insist on going down the wrong road, get tough with them. you are the parent, you are in control.

Don't allow your child[ren] to become another statistic.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 23:16:33 Reply

At 11/5/08 08:50 PM, Dr-Worm wrote:
2. (just ask any of the billions of people with traumatic childhood experiences related to such things)

Getting beaten by your drunk dad or sent to war against other children isn't the same as watching a movie.

And dude, there's so many crazy things that can traumatize kids. For instance, the biggest scare I ever had as a kid was seeing the dudes get all turned into cyborgs in Superman 3. All instances of me seeing tits and extreme violence are great moments.

At 11/5/08 09:25 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:
Subjectivity, particularly child subjectivity to pornography and sexual images creates a distorted view of sexual relations between men and women where the male physically and emotionally dominates the female.

The word "distorted" is based on the false assumption that we have the correct relation to sex in our current society.
Which also is based on the false assumption that there is somehow a correct view on sex.

So you're still left with purely moral judgments.

As for the shit about "male dominating" etc., I don't see that this had anything to do with porn since porn has increased steadily with women getting more rights and equality, as well as all the smart wife roles in Sitcoms.

Think about it this way, why is it of more value that childeren get to experience sexual activities a few years younger than they're biologically or mentally designed to

First off, you can't decide the "mentally" part. And physically, all you need is a boner and that comes about really really young. Probably 8-9. Girls don't need anything special.

So yeah.

Which one is more important for the developement of a functional family?

Careful there, this argument leads down a dark path.

At 11/5/08 10:46 PM, tony4moroney wrote:
I'll be damned if watching hours of that doesn't damage a kid's psychology because it certainly has messed with mine.

Well seeing as you have a messed up mind, maybe we shouldn't rely on your testimonies?
Haha.
But seriously, are you admitting that you treat women violently or something? What are you admitting to here? That you think women are real dolls with periods?

Or that you just feel guilty for watching so much porn?


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Response to Porn/sex and kids 2008-11-05 23:51:23 Reply

At 11/5/08 11:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/5/08 10:46 PM, tony4moroney wrote:
I'll be damned if watching hours of that doesn't damage a kid's psychology because it certainly has messed with mine.
Well seeing as you have a messed up mind, maybe we shouldn't rely on your testimonies?
Haha.
But seriously, are you admitting that you treat women violently or something? What are you admitting to here? That you think women are real dolls with periods?

Or that you just feel guilty for watching so much porn?

LOL I knew you were going to say that once I read what you quoted.

Kind of. I'm saying that the way I view women and my sexual desires have become much more sadistic and I believe (with a great deal of confidence) that the primary and possibly only responsible cause for this is exposure to hardcore porn. In a way yes, I do view women a little more objectively and I view them similarly to how the stereotypical blue collar worker sees them. You know, a sexual object, and your only concern is using them for sexual gratification. This is a patently wrong worldview to have, or at least in my opinion and how our current society sees it and I wouldn't want my children to grow up with those images engraved into their minds.