Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

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At 10/15/08 01:41 PM, CaiWengi wrote: What? Who makes money from a public healthcare system? The drug companies presumably do, maybe the cleaners, but the hospitals and so on arent ran by wealthy buisnessmen.

Emotional, class-based arguments aside...

I am not totally against healthcare for the poor. However, our politicians have severely mismanaged Social Security to the point that in the next 20 years it is going to consume the entirity of the US government's incoming revenue. Now is not the time for us to go adding a new program for the pigs in DC to get fat off of.

It encourages people as a whole to go to college. Which means more skilled workers, which Im sure is good for the economy, and for people who now wont have to work in Asda all their life because they could never make the financial commitment of a college loan.

The problem with your assumption is that it is all paid for by student loans. That is only a part of it. There are scholarships, service based grants (military and civilian), income based grants, etc.

As for the "financial commitment" of a college loan...this is a personal choice. I have never heard of anyone being denied a federal college loan. They are not hard to get at all.

Im not sure if it would have that big an effect? I mean sure it makes it worse, but 40 times as worse? And dont you think more welfare, encouring them to go to college and so on, will help them out of these deprived areas?

Yes ELF does have that big of an effect. Furthermore, your argument that gun control is what makes it worse fails because US gun crime happens the most in locales where ELF's effects are most prevelant and gun control is most severe.

And yes I do think more investment in inner-city schools and economies will help reduce crime. In fact this is an argument for ELF more than it supports your gun control stance. Better schools and economic opportunities undercut ELF's detrimental effects.

Build a big wall? Im sure america has the technology to stop smuggling with the right financial investment.

We already have found tunnels so building a wall is not good enough. Furthermore, we are seeing sea smuggling routes with smugglers using submarines. Now you may argue that the UK potentially has the same issue but we're not talking long-range nuclear subs...but shortrange vessels. Which means you have to look at our most immediate neighbors. You have France, we have Mexico and a great many poor Carribean countries who politicians can make more than their salaries in bribes.

The answer is not continue throwing money after projects that provide an illusion of safety (ie: walls) but help undercut ELF's detrimental effects.

Your point that guns is not really a good thing and therefore we should not be proud of it does not hold water. I have demonstrated to you that guns are not the cause of violence in the US but other factors. If you do not understand the US gun culture that is fine. If you are a little put-off by it that is fine as well. But avoid the value-judgement of things you either do not understand or have an uninformed dislike of.

I'm proud because I'm not a sycophantic parasite who must feed off of the government's tit. I am free to stand or to fall on my own and the struggles and sacrifices that I have had to make to attain my academic achievements are made that much sweeter and richer because of overcoming these challenges.

Tell that to people who cant afford college.

Do you not get that I have been unable to afford college? That I am one of these people who have had to get loans, grants, etc to pay for school? My parent's did not just write a check for me to go to college...they helped by taking out a loan for part of my undergrad. But I have had to figure out how to finish my undergrad do all of my graduate work on my own.

You realise your country was founded by these collonial empires? And eitherway, the past is the past and its unchangeable. Your current foreign policy however, is.

Yes I do realize this. Furthermore, is our current foreign policy completely within our control? Afterall, we do have to deal with the paradigm that is left in your wake.

More history stuff

And then your country wouldnt join the League of Nations. Remember that? Weakening all economic sanctions imposed by the LoN, and obviously giving it a hell of a lot less power.

Yes we did not join the LoN, however you over-estimate just how much power we could bring to the table. We were not a superpower back then, so the idea that we could have saved the LoN is somewhat laughable.

The colonial legacy left behind by European Empires (especially France and the UK) is one of severe heartbreak and social injustices that makes the US slave trade look rather anemic as far as great power social injustices go

I can certainly think of one social injustice we left in our wake.

Yes, and if we are that one social injustice...then we learned from the best and maybe someday we will be able to come close to unleashing the same amount of woe upon the world that Europe has. :)

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At 10/15/08 01:31 PM, TheMason wrote:

Not a valid point. We expect roads, schools, etc for our taxes. The difference is, we would rather keep more of what we earn than give it to the government to determine how our money is best spent for us.

Whiney European: -1

Come on, Mason, I know the libertarian deep within you doesn't agree with that statement!

Americans don't expect SHIT from the government. I mean, yeah, BASIC returns on the investment, but nothing else. We throw billions and trillions there way, then sit back idly as they waste our money, throw it away, and hand it off to their friends. Government accountability is virtually non-existent in the United States. We may say, "Hey, you need to give us fire fighters and some cops", but we never put our foot down and say "You need to spend every last penny we give you MORE efficiently then we ourselves could have spent it in order to justify you having taken it in the first place. You need detailed records of how you spent our money, and you need to spend it in a manor that the majority of tax payers would approve of. You need to look out for us, put our interests ahead of your own, and never stand in the way of us progressing".

Basically, as long as you DON'T commit large-scale fraud while elected to congress, you'll never have to be held accountable for your actions

My count: -2

Your count is stupid and communistic, much like your mother.

What, what nigguh? You heard me, punk.

Again not valid. Yes our test scores get a pounding compared to those of Europe, Japan and Korea. BUT this is decieving. We are testing everyone: those in college prep cirriculum, vocational/technical and those who do neither. On the other hand, everyone else just reports those kids who are on the college bound track. So that is pretty heavily stacked against us and does not truly capture what they think it is.

Not only do we recieve poor test scores, but we get this while throwing insane ammounts of money in the gutter. 10,000 per student per year, as some studies estimate. You could match our scores for farrr less, and as Ben Chavez showed, for about $4,000 a student you can blow regular public schools out of the fucking water. The school system always begs for MORE money, despite more money not doing ANYTHING to improve the system, horrendous union rules means it's just about impossible to fire a teacher, even if they sexually harrass their students, teachers/administrators lie/cheat/fraud so they can pass students that don't deserve to pass, and thanks to schools emphasising their own pride and authority over the students education, they refuse to make productive changes that are proven to help their students.

Also our college system remains top dog.

The existence of Bob Jones University counteracts the Ivy League.

Crazy fundy's

We already do. The problem is that there is such a small value placed on education along with a whole host of other variables which results in only a very small percentage of urban, inner-city kids who would even qualify for admission. Besides, there is no way that the AARP will allow social security to be redirected anytime soon. There is not a politician out there with a backbone strong enough to stand up to Social Security.

I just mean redirect funding from the Welfare aspect to fund college admissions.

When I was little and the fam was still living off welfare alone, I still remember how they used to give us money for random shit we didn't really need... we had money for games, and ever year or so we'd go to six flags... yet, to this day, my mother is still paying her student loans.

I mean... come the fuck on. It's not exactly like we'd have to struggle to find a spot in welfare we could cut funding from >_>

He kinda got us there...

But America ISN'T the fattest.

But all joking aside...this is why I hate these "my country is better than yours" arguments...you have to cut through all of this crap to try and get it to where you can actually make a valid comparison. And then it all comes down to individual preference on how one wants to live their life. I'll keep my guns and lower taxes...you can keep your healthcare and social hand-outs. We can both be happy, but why do you (the OP) need to attack a system you don't understand and therefore disagree with?

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At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote: The fact ordinary people are allowed guns is appaling. Look here. Your country has 4 times the gun crime rate (per 100,000 people so dont get bitchy about how your country is bigger) then any other country on the list. Your is 3.98. England and Wales' is 0.15. If the logic that if you ban guns people cant protect themselves is true, then wtf is that statistic about? You tell me.

If you say Cellardoor's name 3 times in a mirror...
He will come to you, and he won't shut up either... until you're DEAD.

So what exactly are you proud of in your country? Maybe the slave trade? The fact you are the fattest country? The fact you invade sovereign countries for no good reason? You tell me.

I'm not sure about the slave trade you're talking about. The legalized one has been abolished for some two hundred years.

And the underground ones-- we'll, every country hosts a dark evil thing that the police and governments are trying to bust.

PS: Im not trying to attack the everyday american, as people, Ive always found you very nice, Im just wondering how you can be so patriotic.

I think all countries have things to be patriotic.
My problem is this blind patriotism and inevitably tied with fanaticism and even hate.

Anne Coulter comes to mind...

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Ha. I know exactly what your talking about. The beauracracy and so on? Damn straight it mangles businesses, but Hospitals Im not so sure. Even if it does create alot of extra paper work, Im sure you sorting out your insurance does the same. Are you arguing all things state controlled fail? Fire department mean anything to you?

Fire departments and ambulances actually do MUCH better when they are privately owned and financed then when they are government run.

And it's not just "paperwork". Beaurocracy not only adds time, but it lowers the quality and raises the price of services. When hospitals are government run, they do not innovate, and as long as the government pay's for everything theres no incestive for a hospital to actually make the correct diagnosis. In the free market, if a patient feels the doctor is B.Sing him, the patient will leave. But as long as the governments fronting the bill, the patient does't object when the doctor runs needless tests and prescribes expensive, potentially worthless medecine.

I completely beg to differ. Workers rights are certainly not meaningless, and while we arent talking about such grave circumstances as industrial revolution, I still think its very important that you lot work a hell of a lot more then us. You want to talk about massive intellectual failure in an arguement? Petty insults.

Getting paid money to not show up to work for a day is not a workers right. If you think your boss is working you too hard at your job and giving you too many hours, find a new job. Sick days, vacation days, hollidays, and un-official-go-home-early days account for about a month off of work every year.

You're essentially getting paid for 30 days of work you never did. That's MORE then enough.

Thats a poor thing for the workers. And you cant say he can simply switch the a different job. You and I both know switching jobs isnt that simple, and what are the chances of switching to a job with good pay and the holiday time we enjoy over here. Next to nothing perhaps?

You don't understand free market. If Bob Ross only gives his employees 1 vacation day a year, then Ross Bob is going to offer 2 vacation days to steal his customers, at which point RossBob Squarepants will offer three, etc. Eventually, someones going to find out that the janitors over at the local school get a ton of time off and just apply there.

It's your own fault if your too dumb to ask how many vacation and hollidays you get each year BEFORE you accept the job.

They are americans. Yes, your right, americans are causing the gun crime in america. Your point is?
You dont think the UK has a HUGE immigrant community? Do your research please.

Except that you DON'T. Maybe YOU should do the research and see that whereas you have slightly over a million blacks and latino's, for a whopping 2%, whe have close to a hundred million of them, or roughly 30 percent of our population. Even ignoring the fact that a LARGE chunk of gun violence by "U.S citizens" are actually commited by Mexican citizens who snuck in here, our racial make up explains our high gun violence.

Im talking about your past. The fact your country was built upon slaves.

You raped and killed people in india, caused millions of deaths in the Middle East and Africa, and caused hundreds of thousands of Irish deaths.

I restated my point already. I didnt think youd use such pathetic evidence. America is not the fattest country, its just a very very fat one.

The exact same can be said for your country.

As do nations in Europe? You cant band us all onto one entity. And im not even directly talking about the Iraq war, which you led completly, even if we did blindly follow.

England has had a legacy, since the second it came into power, of invading sovergn nations.

I mean, that's what you guys DID for a good 300 or so years.

(And outside of Iraq, what sovereign Nations did we invade?)

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America didn't invade sovereign nations so much as we MADE them. And then expect them to always do us favors and kiss our asses and, when they act up, shove the whole "Remember when we saved your ass and blah blah blah" in their faces when the nations we made sovereign never asked to be sovereign? That we just decided to turn them into sovereign nations to protect our own economic interests and investments.

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At 10/15/08 12:01 PM, CaiWengi wrote: Yes, I might pay for it, like you might pay for it.

No, there is no "might" to this, you do pay for it. Every government based program that somehow miraculously enriches your life and serves to inflate your ego and self image in comparison to the U.S. comes out of your tax money.

Do they not deserve healthcare?

That's a loaded question riddled with emotional appeals. And my answer is no, especially not when the government is in charge of it. I don't trust the government to do right by me with the money they already take out of my paycheck as it is, you're not about to see me lobby for them to pay for my healthcare (or anyone else's for that matter).

And by extension, let me add note to the fact that you think the same government that is responsible for our "shitty" public school systems should also be responsible for paying for healthcare. Yeah, you've our best interests at heart, kid.

I meant no one pays anything to go to college.

Patently false. It comes out of your tax money. You could work at McDonalds flipping hamburgers for the duration of your college years, guess what? You're still working at McDonalds to help pay for college. If you DON'T work while you're in college and the government pays you to go, guess what? It's a government grant.

The general american attitude seems to be far more selfish.

Far be it from us to not want to pay for everyone else's problems when we have bills of our own to pay.

Its another reason why you country is rubbish. Sorry I thought that was obvious :/

It's not a politically relevant issue.

I dont know why you think you need guns, but whatever it is, it doesnt work.

Because my right to protect my home, family, and livlihood far outweighs your myopic viewpoint that guns are an evil that need to be stamped out?

What slave trade? The one america supported and was built upon. And yes britain played a huge part in it, but we also led the way to abolishing it.

Oh, I thought you were discussing issues that were relevant today. I mean, you're going on and on about how our government sucks at funding schools, private healthcrare, regulating gun crime, how we're a fatass nation, I thought for a second there was a new slave trade system set up and I didn't get to get in on the ground floor to invest in it.

Fine, point conceded. You have a VERY fat country.

You're not conceeding anything if you still want to make an issue out of it. Yes, our country is fat, so is yours, whoop-te-fucking-shit. What does that have to do with ANYTHING?

I think you will find that when the french entered the war, our military strength was matched. We also fought Spain and the Dutch Republic at the same time. The war was certainly not as unbalanced as you like to make it sound.

We still beat you, end of story.

No, I was critisizing the American country, but Im not criticizing the american people. I like plenty of americans, I certainly dont hate any.

Don't try and backpedal and kiss ass now, you're entire post was about how much we the American people suck for not running our government as though it were a carbon-copy clone of the one we sought to get away from to begin with.

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why do you non-Americans rely on so many stereotypes?

oh wait...

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At 10/15/08 05:07 PM, SolInvictus wrote: why do you non-Americans rely on so many stereotypes?

oh wait...

SHAZAM.

Well, it is true that more Americans are patriotic than, say, Canadians, and Brazilians (actually, than almost all South Americans). I have seen British and Irish nationalism though, and I can say that those are almost equally unpleasant compared to American. As is almost all nationalism, it seems. People need to read more Orwell.

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I'll address your concerns one at a time but if you dare ignore me, and continue your arguments i will find out where you live and beat you senselessly out of neglect based anger. Yes.

At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote: I dont understand why americans are so patriotic. Your country sucks balls. Your mindset is that the government doesnt owe you anything, where as over here we think hey we pay these taxes and vote you people in so we better damn get something in return.

My guess is, you consider 'owe' to be something in the form of a physical entity, namely money, public services, etc.

1) You imply in you generalities that EVERY american is against handouts. You are ignoring the new left liberals in our country who beleive quite the opposite, and want the government to control the means of production. However, since you probably consider america to be a primarilly conservative based nation, [that is my guess] I will further address your arguments on the basis that America is ruled by the most die hard of conservatives.

2) Conservatives hold, now, as since the begining of America's founding, it is the duty of the government to protect it's citizens in two. First, to protect them from domestic aggressors, people who would threaten their rights [if you want me to discuss rights please request it, otherwise i will assume you know what rights i am talking about] Those aggressors typically being criminals [thiefs, murderers, etc.] or Enron venture entrepreneurs, frauds, and other individuals who cheat the system . Second, to protect them from foreign aggressors, namely, foreign invaders and terrorists. The conservative american holds that the government should be paid in taxes only enough to perform these two tasks effectively, and that the money that an american earns from his hard work belongs to him, not the state, or to the people, to spend as he chooses. The government does not owe people anything but to protect them in the two ways described, because anything given to a citizen by the government comes from money that is taxed and thus taken from somebody else. Hence, taxes are a necessary evil which should not go beyond just that, being necessary.

Conservative American's don't want universal health care, giant welfare, and other services because they're aware of the fact that the government cannot produce wealth, only take it and redistribute it. They are confident enough in the system of private ownership where individuals, not bureaucrats, compete with one another to bring to an american goods and services at the best possible quality. It's the private ownership system that europe abandoned after either falling lapdog [and wrongfully so] to either the soviet union or the united states. [perhaps it's the other way around given the whole nato relationship]

Since you're so quick to pass judgement on others, i reserve the right to pass judgment on you. Europeans and Canadians have no faith in the capacity of the individual to better their lot in society or to contribute as a non civil officer; They trust that the closest thing to an ideal society is one where wealth is taken from the most productive members and given to the least encouraged members of society.

Your next two paragraphs talk about Healthcare and Education. Cellardoor can give you a template [Template given that he's probably said it so many times that it's saved onto a .doc file and then pasted whenever the need arises] lecture about why Health care is good in europe and not so good in the united states.

Concerning Education, American Secondary schools are poor compared to Europe's, but our colleges generally outrank yours. Which to me is no surprise given that Colleges are usually private while secondary schools [high schools / middle schools] are publicly owned. I think the americans might have something to learn about how your school system is handled, but i do not beleive it has much to do with the fact that your citizens are obligated to surrender more than half of your income to government officials.

Your holiday system is crap. You get very very very little holidays compared to what most 1st world countries get. I dont know why this is, that buisnesses can thrive in our country, yet you fools lap it up that buisnesses need you to get very little holidays. Id hate to work in america.

Holiday's in europe come about because of the ethnic homogenization of the European nation states. Holiday's in America are generic and small ethnic holiday's take less precedence because with the exception of the major holiday's there is rarely enough people to celebrate the holiday.

As for hating to work in America. You may hate to work here, but i beleive the best way to rate a nations attraction for business are by looking at how people vote with their feet. Why are people insisting on flocking to big bad horrible united states when it's clear that over in europe they're eager to share the wealth.

The fact ordinary people are allowed guns is appaling. Look here. Your country has 4 times the gun crime rate (per 100,000 people so dont get bitchy about how your country is bigger) then any other country on the list. Your is 3.98. England and Wales' is 0.15. If the logic that if you ban guns people cant protect themselves is true, then wtf is that statistic about? You tell me.

Talk to Mason about gun control, there are threads about it. For me to say that there are specific reasons why gun control in the united states would do more harm than good would be an insult to the various threads and speakers already in place who spend months trying to convince various individuals independently that there ideas about gun control are misguided.

I know some of the facts and statistics that make gun control sound stupid, but given my 800 character limit, i'll just reference you to some websites that probably address many of the reasons you dislike ownership of firearms.

http://www.gunfacts.info/
http://www.rense.com/general76/mths.htm

PS: Im not trying to attack the everyday american, as people, Ive always found you very nice, Im just wondering how you can be so patriotic.

you seem to share an ideology that makes me uncomfortable about Neoconservatives here in my own country. Neoconservatives seem to beleive that the only thing that can justify patriotism and keep it alive is the demonstration of military power and political hegemony over other economic countries, even a simple fact that our GDP outranks other countries isn't enough for some of them. Every single nation has their share of wrongdoings. Germany has the nazi's, France has the french aristocracy, the Spanish have their inquisition. the american slave trade would have been nothing if west Africans and Portuguese slave traders didn't provide them with the slaves which they also sent to Brazil to work in the sugar plantations which are historically regarded as hell compared to an american tobacco plantation. Nearly all of europe holds the legacy of WWI, Eastern europe has the legacy of the soviet union. Since you know the history of your nation better than i do i bet you could make a whole list of your national ancestors transgressions. Yet only in america do the new left liberals decry their nation as evil. Do French socialists hate France? do russian soviets hate russia? does the UK union party hate the UK?

Nationalism and patriotism, in it's true form, should be compared to motherhood. If you love your country because of it's perfect historical record, or because it was the strongest or the best, then you are a bad mother or a bad parent. if you love your nation because it's the best, what would you do if you came to the revelation [as i have with mine] that it wasn't.

You love your country because it's your country.

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IMO, Americas becoming another post WWI germany. I the abrupt racism and prejudice is crazy, and with an economic downturn.... It just speaks trouble.

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At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote: I dont understand why americans are so patriotic. Your country sucks balls. Your mindset is that the government doesnt owe you anything, where as over here we think hey we pay these taxes and vote you people in so we better damn get something in return.

Healthcare is a prime example.

We actually have the best healthcare in the world.

Next.

Your education system is also appaling.

We actually have the best education (higher education) in the world.

Next.

Your holiday system is crap.

We're not as lazy as you and we work harder.

Next.

The fact ordinary people are allowed guns is appaling.

The fact that your country doesn't allow people to own guns is appalling. The fact that British people still defend their gun control laws even though it's a simple fact that gun bans in your country that at best, your gun laws have failed, at worst they have actually made things worse.

Next.

So what exactly are you proud of in your country?

- The US is the world's most powerful country, and it's so much better than your country that your society has to lie to itself in order to feel better about the UK's compete and utter inferiority to and dependence on the US.

Maybe the slave trade?

Which your country participated in.

The fact you are the fattest country?

The fact that we're actually NOT the fattest country, meanwhile some EU countries are actually fatter.

PS: Im not trying to attack the everyday american, as people, Ive always found you very nice, Im just wondering how you can be so patriotic.

How can you wonder how Americans can be so patriotic?

Oh that's right, because just about everything you hear about the US is engineered propaganda as a way of helping you ignore reality.

The people who criticize our country so ferociously like you can't even do it without using an American website, using what is undoubtedly an American computer, running American software, over the internet which was invented by Americans.

Part of the reason I'm patriotic is because just about every single criticism of the US that people like you have can be shown to be inaccurate or hypocritical. When people like you can only base your arguments on complete bullshit propaganda, it shows you how little real substance you have to work with.

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At 10/15/08 03:04 PM, fli wrote: If you say Cellardoor's name 3 times in a mirror...
He will come to you, and he won't shut up either... until you're DEAD.

Fli, you really need to shut up.

k, thanks.

At 10/15/08 05:43 PM, Tancrisism wrote:

At 10/15/08 05:07 PM, SolInvictus wrote: why do you non-Americans rely on so many stereotypes?

oh wait...

SHAZAM.

Well, it is true that more Americans are patriotic than, say, Canadians

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's just about the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. I have seen or heard Canadian ever criticize Canada with a fraction of the effort I regularly see Americans criticize the US. Canadian society does not allow self-criticism whatsoever.

Notice there are no Canadian Michael Moore's? That's not because Canada lacks things to criticize, it's because Canadians don't criticize their country in that way. Ever. The cliche of "Canadian modesty" is just about the most ridiculous lie ever.

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I've got an idea.

How can British people be so patriotic.

1) Your country hates the US, yet you consume American culture like its heroine. You watch our movies and TV shows, you listen to our music, you buy our products like iPods for instance.

2) Your country was a brutal empire, now your empire is gone and you're a 2nd-string country. You're lucky to even be and 2nd-string power now because your status is largely dependent on your relationship with the US.

3) Your empire once ruled over the US, the country you now hate, but peasant colonies defeated empire. Later, that country that you used to rule over came and saved Europe including your country from the threat of both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. That country that defeated you, then later saved you, is the country that you show so much scorn and derision for. Instead of being humbled by it, let alone grateful, in order to preserve your pride you've turned the US into your scapegoat

4) You like to relish in the fact that world opinion of the US is negative. When defending your own biting-the-hand-that-feeds-you complex, you'll say "lolz, the WHOLE WORLD hates you". First you ignore that this is obvious because the US is the world's most powerful country, secondly, you ignore the fact that your country does many of the things that the US does that makes the US hated. The only reason your country get's less negative attention is because your country is less powerful. You're also seen as America's lapdog, that's why countries don't have as much hatred for you as they do the US even though they would if your country was more powerful. If you're angry at a man, why kick his poodle? You're the poodle, you may not want to accept this, but you certainly benefit from it.

5) Your healthcare system is horrible. People wait for incredibly long times for procedures in your country. You have less access to state of the art treatments and drugs than Americans do. Even Americans who are uninsured have better access to life-saving procedures than people in your country have. I guess that's why wealthy Britons tend to come to the US for healthcare when they can afford it.

6) Whereas the US system is emphasizes individual responsibility and individual freedom, you British people actually like the idea that your government babysits you. You actually like the idea that your government takes money away from other people to give it to you even though you didn't earn it. How pathetic.

7) Your government doesn't allow you the right to own defensive weapons. The only people in your country that have these weapons are your authorities and criminals. Ordinary law abiding citizens are thusly vulnerable to both.

Oh, and you may say you have lower crime, but the funny thing is that since your country banned handguns, handgun crime has actually gotten much higher. Your gun bans didn't work, they achieved the opposite of what they were supposed to.

8) Chavs. That's all.

I could go on.

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My first ever quadruple post I believe.

Also, monster trucks.

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At 10/15/08 07:33 PM, Frattochino wrote: IMO, Americas becoming another post WWI germany. I the abrupt racism and prejudice is crazy, and with an economic downturn.... It just speaks trouble.

Fail.

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You don't live here! Why the fuck do you care?!

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In my opinion, our idea of Patriotism is more of a way for our government to impalement its ever expanding control of us. In the olden days, back in the days of the Revolutionary War, we had a totally different type of patriotism than we do now. It used to be we believed in freedom, and we would literally kill to keep from being controlled. Nowadays we embrace control under the false flag of patriotism. A true American Patriot, by definition, (the volunteer army of the U.S. during the revolution) should have taken up arms and gone to war against our government years ago. We have been brainwashed into a new form of patriotism, a form that is not real. When you get people to universally support and defend a lie, they in turn argue against honesty and the truth. We, as Americans, defend lies using terms such as "conspiracy theorist." The fact of the matter is, our government is very corrupt. The worst part is, they say that true patriots should believe that there are no conspiracies, and that our government is wonderful. They have a good majority of Americans defending lies, one of which being that patriotism comes in the form of loving your country, loving your government, and not questioning your government. Questioning your government is one of the most patriotic things you can do in America, at least the people who founded this country thought so. Do not question the American Government, support them in everything that they do, give up your liberties for fake security that isn't needed as they ask, and you are a patriot as far as our government is concerned.

It is so easy to love our country because after years of brainwashing, we have been tricked into thinking things that our founding fathers didn't want t us to. First off, if the Founding Fathers were alive today, I could almost guarantee that they would say "why the fuck haven't you guys pulled out your guns and killed the monsters who have killed our nation?" But the things is, people won't. because people think that other people won't. We vote for the lesser of two evils because we are tricked into thinking "one of these guys are going to win, you want one to win less than the other, so vote for the other to keep him from winning" instead of "hey, he might not win, but he defends the Constitution, the beliefs of our founding fathers, and is the best candidate, so I am going to vote for him." These days, instead of that second phrase, people will say "he doesn't stand a chance you idiot, why waste your vote?"

The rest of the world, of course, gets bits and pieces of a skewed view of the United States. They hear the bad parts, because the news publishes the bad parts. The true Americans (going off of the beliefs of the founding fathers here) aren't heard by the rest of the world. The news corperations are a big part of what makes us such an ignorant country, a very small amount of big wig rich bastards who own 96% of our news stations get together and say "ok guys, what should Americans think this year?" What happens next, is the story the rest of the world hears. They hear the idiotic system those pricks want all Americans to follow, when a minority of us refuse to conform. So when you hear about how universally and fully Patriotic we are, it is probably coming from a source that took its info from one of America's brainwashing news stations. Of course all of our major news stations (mostly FOX) would call me a "conspiracy theorist" for typing any of this stuff, but thus is the modern day tale of the United States.

To sum it all up, you hear we are all patriotic because our brainwashing news stations spread a skewed message of patriotism that is in essence a lie, it becomes viral among a good percent of our populace, and you hear about it on the internet/your news.

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At 10/15/08 08:38 PM, CrabPope wrote:

1) Your country hates the US, yet you consume American culture like its heroine. You watch our movies and TV shows, you listen to our music, you buy our products like iPods for instance.

See above

Look around you.

Excuse me sir, but britain actuall banned slavery before the US, and we were quicker in giving black people equal treatment.

Nice irrelevant response.

I'm pretty sure that my #2 point had nothing to do with slavery.

Jesus fucking Christ it was 200 years ago, your ancestors probably weren't even in America at that time, stop going on about it, and France saved your Arses anyway.

You just contradicted yourself within the same sentence. First you say it was 200 years ago as a way of ignoring it, but then you say that France saved "your Arses" as if I shouldn't ignore that.

By your logic, people in your country can't mention any exploits of British people unless they were alive when it happened and were personally involved.

Really though, your country doesn't have much to be patriotic based on its history. You're now dependent on the country you used to rule over, and who defeated you in a revolution. Your country's existence is owed to the country whose wouldn't exist if your country had its way earlier.

British anti-Americanism is cosmically ironic and just plain dumb.

Plus ww2 - America was too chickenshit to enter, untill they were forced into it by the Japanese.

1) The US wasn't afraid, the US population just had no reason to enter the war until we were attacked because we were isolationist at that time.

2) The US already supplied the majority of your country's war material long before we entered. Your country was losing before the US came in anyway. Your country would have lost long before we entered the war if we hadn't shipped over so many much war material.

The Brits fought on their own against a much larger power (Germany) and were initially succesfull

Actually the British were were losing across the board before the US entered the war. The British lost mainland Europe to the Germans (hello Dunkirk), and the British failed at trying to retake it (Dieppe raid). The British couldn't protect France and Holland (and others), and made a miserable attempt at trying to get back into mainland Europe.

The US did more against Germany than the British did by far, and the US also basically single-handedly defeated the Japanese. Not only did the US enter when the war was being lost by the allies, then begin to win the war, the US also supplied all of the allies before and after the US entered with troops.

The US did much more in WWII than your country did. The US was the most important factor to allied victory in WWII. No other country fought in every theater of war to such a significant degree, no other country provided even approaching the amount of essential war items to the allies that the US did.

Any country where you get cancer, AND have to pay for the treatment is a fucked up country my friend

Any country where the government limits the access to high-end treatments and lowers the frequency of operations and so forth to save costs is a fucked up country. That's your country. Your government controls the healthcare costs by cutting corners, that is why your country has such a lower cancer survival rate compared to the US.

Your system emphasizes the illusion of equality and cost-effectiveness. The US system emphasizes giving people choice, saving lives and giving the best possible quality of treatment.

Yes there are long waiting lines, but I'd rather have delayed help than no help at all

I'd rather pay money to live than die because the government controlled by healthcare. I'd rather be in debt than be dead, wouldn't you?

I don't think you'd have this opinion if you were brought up in the many slums of America, as I said,
in societies you're meant to help each other out, look up empathy in the dictionary.

Um, in societies you're not supposed to have your government control your healthcare. Americans help eachother out, but they'd like to do it freely. In your country, the government forces you to do this.

As the original poster said, gun crime is significantly higher in the US than in europe, it's obviously not working.

Guns prevent more crime in the US than they cause.

You can't blame the higher gun crime in the US on gun laws.

People like you only support gun ownership because you saw a rambo movie, got a boner and thought you could be Sly Stallone.

People like you only don't like gun ownership because you're completely ignorant of reality and your entire perception of firearms is based on what you see in the media. You're gun shy, and like to be babysat by the government.

Oh, and you may say you have lower crime, but the funny thing is that since your country banned handguns, handgun crime has actually gotten much higher. Your gun bans didn't work, they achieved the opposite of what they were supposed to.

Eh? where is the evidence for this? You just made it up, look at the OP's link.

Ahahaha.

History lesson.

After the Dunblane massacre in Scotland, the UK banned all handguns in 1997.

Did the ban work? NOPE. Within just a few years, handgun crime was actually up by 40%.

And interestingly:

"Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average."

--------

That is proof that gun ownership prevents crime, and that reducing gun ownership by imposing bans is counter-productive if the goal is actually to reduce crime and not just disarm law abiding citizens (which I'm sure you'd be fine with anyway because you're afraid of guns).

Although there hasn't been any notable similar instances of massacres since the gun ban, gun crime as a whole, including murders and assaults with guns, have DOUBLED in the UK as of 2008. What anti-gun morons have frequently said is that the increase in gun crime is due to the proliferation of air guns in the UK, which you'll see is not true at all.

Proof (pg 36)

1) Total injuries from non-air firearms (i.e. real guns) has quadrupled.
2) SERIOUS injuries with non-air firearms has quadrupled
3) Slight injury with non-air firearms has gone up by 5 times.
4) Fatal injury with non-air firearms has gone up as well, peaking in about 2001, but still remaining at a higher number than was the case prior to the gun ban.
5) That graph is the most recent one, and you might pounce on the fact that in 2005-2006 the gun death rate went back down to the 1998 level, but in 2006 it was actually 58, so it is still significantly higher than before the gun ban.

It's a simple fact that the gun ban has not only failed to achieve its intended goal, but it has been counterproductive. It has actually had the opposite effect. Stats that you find that say otherwise probably result from a report by the British home ministerthat was shown to be a lie. They were covering up gun crime for political purposes.

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At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote:

I dont understand why americans are so patriotic.

====We are patriotic because we are, over-all, the best damn nation in the history of mankind.

Your country sucks balls.

====You just showed your true colors with this statement, but since I will expose you for the uneducted, typical America-hating naive person that you are, it matters little.

Your mindset is that the government doesnt owe you anything, where as over here we think hey we pay these taxes and vote you people in so we better damn get something in return.

===Our mindset, sir, is that, as outlined in the constitution drafted by our forefathers, the governments role is to utilize our tax-money for maintaining public-infrastructure such as roads and traffic systems, provide SOME basic regulation on businesses such as safety standards and certain workers rights, and provide defence and security, which is where the military and police forces come in. As well, it is the governments job to enforce the laws of the land. NOWHERE IN MY CONSTITUTION DO I SEE PERMISSION TO TAKE HALF OF MY EARNINGS, REDISTRIBUTE IT TO LAZY BUMS, TELL ME WHAT HEALTHCARE I CAN AND CANNOT HAVE AND FORCE PEOPLE TO HAVE HEALTHCARE WITH MY FAMILIES MONEY, NATIONALISE BUSINESSES, MEDDLE IN THE AFFAIRS OF THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY, ATTEMPT TO MAKE EVERYTHING "FAIR", REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH ON MASSIVE SOCIALIST WELFARE PROGRAMS, AND THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!

But excuse me, perhaps you brits are doing something better, perhaps us dumb Americans don't get it. Or maybe, maybe we value the freedom that has cost us so dearly, and do not want our government tightening the leash around our necks. WE CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT, WE TELL THEM WHAT TO DO! THEY DO NOT RUN US, OUR MONEY, OUR LIVES. SINCE WHEN WAS IT THE GOVERNMENTS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE FOR PEOPLES HEALTHCARE? THAT IS YOUR JOB AND NOT MY PROBLEM AND WE ARE BETTER OFF FOR IT. I will prove this, but further on. I will compare the United States Healthcare to the British, and you will see just how horrible your massive, marxist-style government-run healthcare is.

Healthcare is a prime example. People make money from other people being sick, and even dying.

===And what is your point? That is how capitalism works, people offer a good or service, other people pay for it with their hard-earned money. Last time I checked, this basic concept is the backbone of our modern society and last time I checked, socialism, where the government provides it for, "Free", does not and NEVER WORKED!

This is just appaling. Over in the UK, we have completely free public health. Sure its not perfect, but its free! I wouldnt pay $6000 to cut the waiting time down a bit!

Oh and here we will get into the good stuff. Let me start off by bringing to your attention, sir, some facts.

Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens.

In 2006 the U.S. Census Bureau reported that 46.6 million are people without health insurance. You hear this number all the time today in discussions on what our public policy should be towards health care (particularly - socialized healthcare). But who are these 46.6 million people? Here are a couple things you probably won't hear from politicians, whether Democratic or Republican:

Of that 46.6 million, 9.5 million were not United States Citizens
Another 17 million of those people live in households exceeding $50,000 and could purchase healthcare but choose to invest their money in other things.
18 million were between the age of 18-34, most in good health - and either not in need of coverage - or chose not to purchase it. (Also, note that this stat likely overlaps with the one above)

70% of the non-elderly population that become uninsured in a given year - are reinsured in less than one year.

Here are a couple other statistics about healthcare in Canada and Europe:

CANADA:

More than 825,000 Canadians are on waiting lists for surgery and other necessary treatments.
15 years ago the average wait for Canadians was 9 weeks - today it's 15 weeks.
Over the past 10 years, 11% of physicians trained in Canada have moved to the United States.

BRITAIN:

More than 1 million citizens are waiting for hospital admission.
Another 200,000 are waiting to get on the waiting list.
Each year - the national health service cancels around 100,000 operations.
Britain has a government agency that's sole purpose is to limit citizens access (rationing) to prescription drugs.

Some other important items:

85 new, life-saving drugs hit the U.S. market from 1998-2002.
During that same period - only 44 of those drugs became available in Europe.
More than half of the 175 billion dollars in health care technology products purchased throughout the world are produced in the United States.
Between 1999-2005 the United States was responsible for the sale of 71% of new pharmaceutical drugs (the next two largest - Japan and Germany accounted for only 4% each).

Plus, the U.S. has a higher survival rate for things such as cancers, serious surgeries, etc. Go look up those statistics, they are out, compare them, you will see for yourself, I have wasted enough time tracking down the sources for the above. I really hate doing people's homework for them.

So, anyways, yes your healthcare is free, but good look actually GETTING HEALTHCARE WHEN YOU NEED IT! This doesn't even factor in cosmetic things. So you have horrible healthcare, the only reason it's still alive at all is because they introduced SOME aspects of free market back into the fold. But don't worry, at least your covered, at least it's free, and that's all that matters, right?

Your education system is also appaling. Over here, we get paid (up to 30 pounds a week) to go to college. No one pays anything for it, but people with low incomes get paid to go there. In america, you have to pay and take out ridculous loans at young ages (Far to young to be commiting yourself to a contract for decades to come)

===See, the problem with the U.S. educational system is the public schools aspect. When we let the free market take over and use OUR tax money to go to whatever school WE want, then it will work. Instead, we have the government taking our tax money, and regardless of whether or not we go to a public school, we never see that money again. How is this fair? Why can't we use our own money to educate ourselves in places that are high quality instead of being forced into some public school full of stupid kids who should have been dropped out of the system a long time ago and put into a school for idiots so they didn't sink the rest of the people trying to actually get an education. I am too tired to find the detailed stastics, but next time you bring up education, I will go all-out on you, just a heads up.

Notice; our higher-education system, AKA colleges and universities, work. The only problem is the liberal professors constantly trying to indoctrinate students.

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Your holiday system is crap. You get very very very little holidays compared to what most 1st world countries get. I dont know why this is, that buisnesses can thrive in our country, yet you fools lap it up that buisnesses need you to get very little holidays. Id hate to work in america.

====My family thinks otherwise, my Father has great benefits. You, sir, have obviously never worked in the former Soviet Union. Oh and, while you brits lazy away and have holidays year round, we Americans toil and work and continue to increase our massive, behemoth of an economy even more. It already comprises over a quarter of the world economy, with only some 4 percent of the population in our country. Great Britain's GDP is less than 1.5 trillion while the U.S. GDP is over 14 trillion dollars. Britain happens to be a top economic powerhouse in the world by the way. No other country comes even close to a quarter of the U.S.'s level of economic output. I don't know of any country above 2-3 trillion GDP. Hell, our military spending for 2007 was more than the entire GDP of Australia and yet it's only a smal percentage of our total GDP. LOL

The fact ordinary people are allowed guns is appaling. Look here. Your country has 4 times the gun crime rate (per 100,000 people so dont get bitchy about how your country is bigger) then any other country on the list. Your is 3.98. England and Wales' is 0.15. If the logic that if you ban guns people cant protect themselves is true, then wtf is that statistic about? You tell me.

====Logic is very simple. When you ban guns, all you have left for protection is the police. So, when some screw head busts into your home and threatens to rape your wife, what are you going to reach for? The phone so you can call 911 while you tell the robber to please not murder you and rape your wife and daughter or whatever for like 5 minutes until the popo's arrive.....or.. are you going to PULL OUT YOUR .45 AND "BLAP BLAP" THAT SUCKER INTO NEXT FRIDAY? Criminals are criminals because they break the law. The only people who get disarmed by banning guns are law-abiding citizens. The criminals will just boot-leg the guns, and it isn't that hard either.

So what exactly are you proud of in your country? Maybe the slave trade? The fact you are the fattest country? The fact you invade sovereign countries for no good reason? You tell me.

Read: BLABLABLAWTFBBQSLAVETRADEAMERIKAKKKLOLOL OLOLISUCKPENISMUFFINS.

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At 10/15/08 08:38 PM, CrabPope wrote:
Not all of us are, you can't generalise 60 million people like that

So the feeling is mutual. :D

Excuse me sir, but britain actuall banned slavery before the US, and we were quicker in giving black people equal treatment.

But your nation compensated the loss of free labor proceeded to create an empire in foreign lands that in several ways were worse off than african Americans as a result.

Jesus fucking Christ it was 200 years ago, your ancestors probably weren't even in America at that time, stop going on about it, and France saved your Arses anyway. Plus ww2 - America was too chickenshit to enter, untill they were forced into it by the Japanese.
The Brits fought on their own against a much larger power (Germany) and were initially succesfull, we could have stayed neutral like you guys but we have a thing called empathy here, and yes we would have been eventually defeated, but it was the Russians who saved us more than you guys.

While i agree with you, the maker of this thread used america's history to argue against reasons for why Americans should be patriotic, while it would be unfair to say that if you're not with us you're with him, cellar's arguments are adressed towards the threadmaker who invoked history as fairgame. I do not beleive anything that my ancestors did reflects how good or bad a person i am today; however, the fact that it became a topic of discussion leaves it open to debate unless the person who made the argument concedes that it was not open for discussion.

Second, i think it's naive to think that any nation aids another nation out of the goodness of their heart, rather, that they're doing it out of their own political interest. This applies to my country as well as the united kingdom, britain got into WWI because it, like the rest of europe, had been itching for a big fight for atleast 100 years or more and because it was allies with France, who was 'attacked' by Germany. WWI was in itself was the most horrific and useless war's in history. Atleast the men who died in WWII were dying either to genuinely invade another country or genuinely prevent invasion. in WWI, as demonstrated by the results of the war, forming alliances with other european nations and trying to fight as others were fighting was probably an attempt to plunder the spoils of war.

Any country where you get cancer, AND have to pay for the treatment is a fucked up country my friend, in societies you're meant to help each other out. It shouldn't be survival of the fittest (wealthiest in your case.)

This is where ideology defeats logic. I can't argue against the altruistic and collectivist thought processes that fuel the beleif that people should pay for the well being of others.

let me first say that Cellardoor's post was vague, but you're reply did not address it's basic idea that the American Healthcare system saves more lives than yours, you only stated that you felt that the IDEA that the problems of individual A should be fixed by individual A rather than individuals B-Z. As far as a war of ideas goes, what constitutes whether or not an idea is more logically sound than another is how effective something is when put into practice.

Yes there are long waiting lines, but I'd rather have delayed help than no help at all

Are you talking about the 45 million individuals in the country that don't have health care? Because i can tell you why there are misconceptions about the 45 million number, and images of huge numbers of people being rejected, sick, and dying, are misleading, if not, outright false.

I don't think you'd have this opinion if you were brought up in the many slums of America, as I said,
in societies you're meant to help each other out, look up empathy in the dictionary.

You're generalization is mistaken, in my opinion. My fathers father, [or my grandfather] was a bricklayer in the city. He was born poor, his father died when he was 12. His hereditary legacy [aka, myself and my family] live much better than he did, The poverty my grandfather faced did not drive him to seek aid from bureaucrats. the system [aka, his employers and dirrectors] may have been 'plotting' against him, but he maintained himself what you would call a 'conservative' who beleived in a strong, personal, individual, worth ethic. The idea that only person A can bring person A out of the grinding poverty that you speak of. It's probably true that he and members of his brick layers union looked out for one another, [laissez faire isn't about a world where every man is for himself and only himself, and will seek to undermine everyone else at all costs] But my father holds that my grandfather never considered the government to ever be a way for the lower classes to escape poverty.

As I recall, America has a history of immigrants coming to the country with nothing and two generations later having families with comfortable living, all the while the government until the 1960's did little to help the lower classes [the new deal was not an anti-poverty program], i doubt all of these individuals are democrats, and even if they are, even fewer among them are democrats for that very reason.

You might say to me that i only gave you one example, but one example is more than the number of individuals you provided.

As the original poster said, gun crime is significantly higher in the US than in europe, it's obviously not working. People like you only support gun ownership because you saw a rambo movie, got a boner and thought you could be Sly Stallone.

That's a ridiculous assertion. the places in the country where gun violence is highest is where there is the highest level of gun control, places like Detroit and Washington DC. This is because only a fool would try to rob or murder you in Texas where every Joe six pack carries a shotgun and has legal authority to blast your head off if you trespass illegally on their property.

The greatest sociological influence on the existence of gun crime is unemployment, naturally, people turn to crime when they can't get employed. And if they are going to use a gun to get what they need to commit their unlawful acts, who cares if the law says you can't own a gun.

Oh, and you may say you have lower crime, but the funny thing is that since your country banned handguns, handgun crime has actually gotten much higher. Your gun bans didn't work, they achieved the opposite of what they were supposed to.

Eh? where is the evidence for this? You just made it up, look at the OP's link.

I don't know what the UK has been doing about gun crime, whether or not gun control has gone up or gone down, but Cellardoor is not lying when he says that gun crime has increased. However, he said 'since your country has banned handguns' I don't know when handguns were banned or when gun crime increased, only that it did recently. I can't support his other claims but i would not be surprised if they were true. places with the most gun crime are usually places with the most gun control. The reason deals with the law of supply and demand. Illegalizing something, to a given degree, makes the items of higher demand in these high control areas, You cannot stop a black market 100%, especially if your primary target is civilian ownership of firearms. [Note that in this country convicted criminals cannot legally own guns, and 80% of gun crimes are commited by them in the first place] A black market where the items are more expensive because they are harder to get legally [or illegally] raises the price and makes it more lucrative to sell black market firearms in those areas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1471716.st m

I don't see any link by the OP, infact i don't even see him on this thread. I might be wrong, i'll check again

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America ftw!

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At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote: I dont understand why americans are so patriotic.

Ok then, I'll tell you why we are so patriotic. We Americans are so patriotic because we are brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, and sons and daughters of America. We are not patriotic for our government or for whoever is in charge of the country at the moment. We are patriotic for each other. We may act hateful to each other. We may slam, dehumanize, insult or point the finger at each other when we argue about the small things that make us different. But when the shit hits the fan, we realize that we are Americans and that we love each other. We are a family of similar people. When bad things happen to that family, we stick together and go to any lengths to stop that which harmed us. Examples of this are shortly after September 11th, or the attack on Pearl Harbor. We view ourselves as Americans. Not Virginians or Californians. Not Wisconsinites or Texans, but Americans. Our government is not America; it is merely a small body that is supposed to represent the people of America. If you hate America, you don't hate our government, you hate the American people and the American way of life. You may not understand our love for each other, but know that most Americans, including myself, would be willing to sacrifice our lives for our people if it were ever needed again.

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I'm gonna answer the question asked in the topic name. We Americans are so patriotic because we have a lot to be patriotic about. In our not even 300 years of being a country we've:
Defeated Britain twice with volunteer armies (Doesn't matter who helped us WE did the fighting)
We were the main driving force for victory in both World Wars (Notice how the stalemate or even defeat was going on for the Allies until America stepped in during WW 1, and the same for WW 2.)
We were the first to develop the Atomic bomb and other nuclear weapons, we were the first and only country to nuke another country,
We've been Democratic and for the people for the 216 years of Nationhood we've had
We are the main driving force in the U.N (Honestly to me the U.N is pointless but anything that can get nearly every country together in one room to just talk about peace is a very big achievement no matter if it succeeds or not.) We have a damn lot to be patriotic about and if you don't like it, to be blunt fuck off.

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I feel loyalty to my city, not my country. Most of my country is filled with stupid fucking hicks who happen to love Jesus, a lot. My city is badass, though. NYC

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Every country is full of patriotic citizens, from the die-hard survivalist militia to the guy in the bar who wouldn't want to move to another country, and all those in between. I guarentee you that every country on Earth has some form of nationalist party or underground movement, and a lot of the time they're in power.

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At 10/15/08 10:04 AM, CaiWengi wrote: Healthcare is a prime example. People make money from other people being sick, and even dying. This is just appaling. Over in the UK, we have completely free public health. Sure its not perfect, but its free! I wouldnt pay $6000 to cut the waiting time down a bit!

We don't make money from people dying, we make money from trying to make their inevitable death more comfortable. My Dad owns a Nursing Home and the food/furniture/appliances there are better than at our own house.

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At 10/15/08 11:08 PM, Thunderhawk27 wrote:

Defeated Britain twice with volunteer armies (Doesn't matter who helped us WE did the fighting)

What do you mean it doesn't matter who helped us? Whoever helped us means they diverted some of the British's attention and FOUGHT as well. The British had to worry about a war with other nations in Europe, such as France, and had to divide it's army. If the British put their FULL attention on America and launched a full-scale invasion to quell the Colonies resistance, we'd have been smoked. Also, to keep from anyone accusing me of hoping that we would lose, I'm GLAD America won.

We were the main driving force for victory in both World Wars (Notice how the stalemate or even defeat was going on for the Allies until America stepped in during WW 1, and the same for WW 2.)

Valid point, as addressed by cellar as well.

We were the first to develop the Atomic bomb and other nuclear weapons,

With the assistance of a few European scientists.

we were the first and only country to nuke another country,

Why would we be proud to drop fire and destruction on a civilian population killing hundreds of thousands? Don't get me wrong, I know it was necessary during wartime, but that doesn't mean you should be particulary proud or patriotic about it.

We've been Democratic and for the people for the 216 years of Nationhood we've had

Actually we've been a "true" Democracy for only about 40-something years. We became a "true" Democracy after the Civil Rights movement in the mid 1960's allowing blacks to vote. A Democracy is, according to Dictionary.com, is:

a form government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

and

political or social equality

We didn't become a "real" Democracy until we attained social equality and allowed those denied that equality to vote.

We are the main driving force in the U.N (Honestly to me the U.N is pointless but anything that can get nearly every country together in one room to just talk about peace is a very big achievement no matter if it succeeds or not.)

Valid point.

We have a damn lot to be patriotic about and if you don't like it, to be blunt fuck off.

Indeed.

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We're just chillaxin' until all you whiny bitches form a group and make your way over here and MAKE us stop our irresponsible practices.

PS. I'd stay away from the square states and Texas. They have guns.

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Your an idiot, trust me, not all Americans are as stupid as the ones on television.