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At 10/17/08 09:50 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/17/08 07:19 PM, Elfer wrote:

Now you're arguing against capitalism, which is a WHOLE OTHER THING ENTIRELY.

No, I'm just showing you that "it reduces costs" is a short-sighted argument and it is an artificial decrease, you're not saving any money anywhere in the process at all.

Woah woah, I wasn't saying it reduces costs. I'm saying that the economic burden of those costs is borne by those who demand it. It's still a waste of resources, but you're not paying it. If you're arguing against people wasting their own money on stupid shit, then you're at odds with capitalism.

Example: Fashion as an industry. There's a shitload of redesigning and marketing that provides no benefit to society whatsoever, but there's enough people willing to pay to have the latest shit that it can sustain itself as a market.

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I already eat Kosher Food so i know all the Kosher symbols.

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At 10/18/08 04:51 PM, poxpower wrote:
I would even support a local jewish restaurant if I liked the food and I didn't want it to close.

Well thank you then for answering part of my question, albeit indirectly.

Your sentiment begets a larger inquiry, however. Do you think that all food specialization that isn't inherently beneficial should be singled out as detrimental to the economy? Is it even so? (I wouldn't know).

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At 10/18/08 04:51 PM, poxpower wrote: I would even support a local jewish restaurant if I liked the food and I didn't want it to close.

This kinda boggles my mind. Wouldn't Jewish food be Kosher?

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The problem you have here pox is that you assume these huge companies are stupid.
The companies know the only extra revenue from kosher certification they are going to receive is from religious jews. That means the Rabbi they are going to pay to certify them is only as valuable as that extra revenue. Its retarded to assume that they would need to pay him more than the money he brings in, if that was the case they would just say screw it.
So obviously they them a % of the extra revenue brought in.
Meaning they have no need to raise their prices across the board.
If you see two equivalent products but the kosher one is more expensive that's merely because you live in an area densely populated with jews and thus the kosher has a higher demand.

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At 10/18/08 07:42 PM, Elfer wrote:

I'm saying that the economic burden of those costs is borne by those who demand it.

At first only, then it's spread on everyone who buys it.
If you buy kosher food, you're supporting it. End of story.

At 10/19/08 02:46 AM, Helicopterz wrote:

Do you think that all food specialization that isn't inherently beneficial should be singled out as detrimental to the economy?

That really doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

At 10/19/08 02:50 AM, Korriken wrote:

This kinda boggles my mind.

told you you didn't get this topic.

Wouldn't Jewish food be Kosher?

Yes, but I'm paying for the food itself. I want jewish food from that place and that guy, so that's what I pay for when I go there.

When I want ketchup, I don't want my ketchup with any extra bullshit.

At 10/19/08 01:56 PM, therealsylvos wrote: The problem you have here pox is that you assume these huge companies are stupid.

no

thanks for reading the whole thing :D
Ok I wouldn't have read this whole thread at this point either.

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At 10/19/08 08:02 PM, poxpower wrote: Yes, but I'm paying for the food itself. I want jewish food from that place and that guy, so that's what I pay for when I go there.

When I want ketchup, I don't want my ketchup with any extra bullshit.

ITT: We cry over pocket change.

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At 10/19/08 08:02 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/18/08 07:42 PM, Elfer wrote:

I'm saying that the economic burden of those costs is borne by those who demand it.

At first only, then it's spread on everyone who buys it.
If you buy kosher food, you're supporting it. End of story.

What the fuck do you mean, "only at first?"

How the fuck could that even possibly work? Like there's an initial boost in sales which then drops off for no reason, yet the company decides to keep having their food certified kosher despite the fact that they're taking a loss?

I keep telling you, the fact that the rabbi fees must be offset by revenue generated by fundamentalist consumers means that THEY bear the ECONOMIC BURDEN of paying for the rabbi. It doesn't magically get transferred to you for no reason after an arbitrary holding period. The only way that it can happen is if people are willing to shape their buying habits around it.

Whatever is going on in the little extra world of marginal production and consumption, along with the certification process that permits that extra region to exist, has absolutely nothing to do with you. You're not paying an extra Jew tax on your food, and it would cost precisely the same amount whether or not the certification existed.

As long as orthodox Judaism exists, kosher certification will exist in an equilibrium like this. If major companies didn't offer kosher goods, the entire orthodox market would be captured by specialist producers charging a premium. The production cost per unit of your food would go down slightly, but you wouldn't see any of that, since the company revenue would drop at the same time, meaning they'd have to increase the profit margin on each unit, leaving you with things that cost exactly the same price.

Again, we're talking about the actual marginal economic burden here, not the larger pools that the money flows into and out of during the entire process.

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At 10/19/08 10:34 PM, Elfer wrote:

How the fuck could that even possibly work?

Well at first, the Kosher selection is small and costs most since it's specialized food. So people who want kosher food have to demand more of it and have to pay more to get it. But as they demand it, more companies realize they have nothing to lose from it and then they convert all their food to kosher, thus lowering the price of kosher products and eliminating the non-kosher version completely.
Hence at that point, we all pay for the kosher the minority demanded at first, since we don't demand for non-kosher because it sounds crazy.

I still don't see at all through your explanation how current money for Kosher food products is somehow only shouldered by the believers. How does that work at the supermarket exactly?

As long as orthodox Judaism exists, kosher certification will exist in an equilibrium like this.

It's steadily on the rise :o
In fact, it exploded in recent decades. There's no "equilibrium". It just makes sense to turn products kosher because of the extra market it brings and because no one opposes it.

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At 10/19/08 10:41 PM, poxpower wrote: In fact, it exploded in recent decades. There's no "equilibrium". It just makes sense to turn products kosher because of the extra market it brings and because no one opposes it.

How can there be "no equilibrium"? That doesn't occur in real systems. Economically speaking, the total cost of making foods kosher can't exceed the amount that people are willing to pay for it. If companies were shelling out more for kosherization than they were bringing in, they wouldn't do it. You're saying that this effort to capture the additional market will eventually spread to all companies, but that doesn't make any sense, because the additional revenue would be spread too thin to cover the additional costs. People can't defect to your company if there's nowhere to defect from.

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In fact, it exploded in recent decades. There's no "equilibrium". It just makes sense to turn products kosher because of the extra market it brings and because no one opposes it.

How does that even make sense?
Of course no one opposes it, they demand it, hence the extra market......

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At 10/19/08 11:11 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 10/19/08 10:41 PM, poxpower wrote: In fact, it exploded in recent decades. There's no "equilibrium". It just makes sense to turn products kosher because of the extra market it brings and because no one opposes it.

How can there be "no equilibrium"? That doesn't occur in real systems.

I was startled when I saw the graph. It is on the rise it seems for no apparent reason.

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At 10/19/08 11:11 PM, Elfer wrote:

How can there be "no equilibrium"? That doesn't occur in real systems.

It hasn't been reached yet, as I thought you were implying. It's going upwards and eventually we'll all be wasting a lot of time and money on this crap even though we wouldn't want to if asked or informed. We already are in fact.

Seriously, look at some replies in this thread. They don't even know what the fuck kosher IS. They think it "makes the food better".
Yeah it makes the food better like making it peanut-free makes it better.

At 10/19/08 11:14 PM, Helicopterz wrote:

I was startled when I saw the graph. It is on the rise it seems for no apparent reason.

it costs nothing, so companies just do it because no one's going to stand up and say "we don't want that shit". And it's pretty fucking easy to do for most foods.
Only when you get to meat products it becomes harder and more of a change.

But you're paying for kosher EVERYTHING. Just the other day, I say kosher SALSA, kosher SODA CRACKERS and kosher BROWN SUGAR.

What the fuuuuuuuuuck? I'm reading the kosher rules and I have no idea how you even MAKE this shit kosher other than inspecting it for bugs which they already fucking do.

Kosher meat at least is slightly different because they cut out extra parts of the animal and salt it more, though they kill it by basically slicing its throat like pirates, which is definitely not the fastest and best way to kill an animal today. I heard people say it was "more ethical". My ass.

blah

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At 10/19/08 11:23 PM, poxpower wrote: What the fuuuuuuuuuck? I'm reading the kosher rules and I have no idea how you even MAKE this shit kosher other than inspecting it for bugs which they already fucking do.

Pretty much. You know what I've seen at the grocery store? Low-fat cocoa.

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At 10/19/08 11:14 PM, Helicopterz wrote:

At 10/19/08 11:11 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 10/19/08 10:41 PM, poxpower wrote: In fact, it exploded in recent decades. There's no "equilibrium". It just makes sense to turn products kosher because of the extra market it brings and because no one opposes it.

How can there be "no equilibrium"? That doesn't occur in real systems.

I was startled when I saw the graph. It is on the rise it seems for no apparent reason.

Lack of graph aside, I wouldn't doubt it's been on the rise in recent decades in relation to Jews being able to thrive all over the world as well as actually having their own nation again. So yeah a graph like that probably does exist somewhere.

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All this thread is, is a (pointless) complaint about the expenditure of time and money by people other than the author. No additional time or money of the author's has or will ever be spent that he didn't consent-to due to the existence of kosher food laws. It has been demonstrated that economically he is unaffected, while the only "waste of time" for the author is the one he chooses for himself, namely: making sure the food he purchases IS NOT kosher. The only burden the author feels is the one he places on himself.

He decides he's going to "vote with his dollar" anyways, and calls for a boycott because "every little bit counts." Fair enough. No one is trying to stop the author from having the opinion that kosher certification is an unnecessary process... but it seems no one else is hopping on board with this 'boycott' thing either. I wonder why? Who exactly are these other people he's advocating towards?

IS IT... the businesses selling the kosher products? Well it certainly can't be them, because ANY additional time or money they spend is done consentingly to cater to a particular market and capture a few more dollars in the process. Why should they care whether kosher is silly or not when they can potentially make more money with a 'K' symbol than without? So no, it isn't the businesses.

IS IT... the consumers purchasing the kosher products? But how is an explanation of why kosher is silly and unnecessary going to affect their decision? And why should it even? Those who don't choose to follow kosher laws don't waste ANY additional time or money of theirs. If your average consumer has a choice between Ballpark Hot Dogs and Hebrew National Hot Dogs, that person is going to make his decision based on price and quality, NOT whether something achieves kosher certification or not. On the other hand, the people who DO live a kosher lifestyle do so by their own choice, and it is them ONLY who have any additional burden of time or money to bear for it. So then, where exactly is this supposed to be headed? You can't explain to the unobservant gentile consumer why HE should give a shit about kosher, yet you can explain to the observant Jewish consumer why he's an idiot FOR giving a shit? Yikes! So no, you can't be advocating towards the consumers either.

So if it isn't the businesses OR consumers , then what people ARE you trying to reach?

...

...

IS IT... the "hates religion with a passion no matter how insignificantly it affects me " crowd? Or is it the "my way of life is the best and everyone else's is dumb" bloc? A combination of the two? Either way, I'm glad we don't have a swarm of those guys in here supporting you. Best of luck to you with that boycott though.

Remember: KEEP ON FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT. EVERY LITTLE BIT COUNTS.

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At 10/20/08 12:58 AM, Cornbucket wrote: All this thread is, is a (pointless) complaint about the expenditure of time and money by people other than the author.

no. Stop failing.

but it seems no one else is hopping on board with this 'boycott' thing either.

ad populum clearly means I'm an idiot.

But how is an explanation of why kosher is silly and unnecessary going to affect their decision?

Well if you can't answer that on your own, then I can't help you.

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At 10/20/08 01:18 AM, poxpower wrote: no. Stop failing.

Your thread was a failure from the start. It's why every page reeks of it.

ad populum clearly means I'm an idiot.

It means you don't either know how to connect with people or there's no one for you to connect with.

But how is an explanation of why kosher is silly and unnecessary going to affect their decision?

Well if you can't answer that on your own, then I can't help you.

If you can't answer that for consumers whose food-buying decisions aren't based around WHICH PEOPLE THEY HATE, then you aren't going to connect with them.

At 10/15/08 10:41 PM, poxpower wrote:

What relevance does it have to today?

Abolustely none.
Seriously: "no grape products from non-jewish people".
What the fuck? I don't want to be associated with people who think that way, sorry.

Remember what I said about you doing the same exact thing as those you hate?

Welcome to "no food products whatsoever from Jewish people."

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At 10/20/08 01:40 AM, Cornbucket wrote:

Remember what I said about you doing the same exact thing as those you hate?

Welcome to "no food products whatsoever from Jewish people."

dear god you're a stellar retard. That on the same page where I said I'd go eat at a jewish restaurant if I liked the food.
Yeah keep typing, the more you type, the closer I am to believing you're REALLY reading what I write.

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K pox quick question to clarify your position

Mars makes both M&Ms(kosher) and Skittles(not).
The question is, would you buy skittles?

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At 10/20/08 01:08 PM, therealsylvos wrote:

Mars makes both M&Ms(kosher) and Skittles(not).
The question is, would you buy skittles?

Probably.
When you boycott, you have to imagine what it would be like if everyone did what you do.

So there would be a very odd discrepancy between how many M &Ms they sell and how many skittles and it probably wouldn't take them very long ( or very few letters from costumers ) to realize what the cause is.

If they use the skittle profits to further fund other things like I dunno, the war in Israel or child labor in pakistan, then it's really out of my hands if I don't know about it :o

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At 10/17/08 06:26 PM, poxpower wrote: hey N64, don't avoid my last post.
Respond. You assumed falsely that kosher food was better, now man up. It's not, admit it.

I already proved my point. Internal fats are removed from kosher beef. Less fat in your food makes it healthier. Cows must also be free of tumors, organs free of blemishes, and the cow cannot be diseased. Same for all animals. The USDA/FDA allows diseased animals to be sold and consumed, but not under kosher guidelines. Eating healthy meat causes less risks for becoming sick.

You ignored this earlier. Now respond to -my- post.

They're laws designed for FOR DESERT NOMADS DURING THE TIME OF THE PHARAOHS. hahaha dear god

And it benefits man today.

I've addressed basically everything you've said that wasn't pure stupidity. But fine, let's play it your way.

Huh yes it has. You can eat all the pork you want today, nothing's gonna happen to you.

So boycott kosher pork. Honestly, this means you're against Jewish laws making this not about time and money. Which is it? Wastes time and money or religious customs? Kosher pork wastes no time or money, so what's the reason you bring it up?

You don't have to drain any blood, you can eat the nerves out of animals butts.

The point is that you don't -have to- but the Jews found that the most sanitary way to kill an animal was to drain it's blood. Science proves this to be sanitary as well, reducing foodborne illness.
http://www.cosv.org.au/index.php?article =99

You can drink whatever grape juice or wine you want, you can even eat camels and bugs.

I asked someone about the wine thing and he had two reasons that he could think of.
1) Pagans tried to poison Jews with wine too many times.
2) Drinking wine is a higher spiritual experience, and since it's so important to Jewish custom, it should be made by Jews.

As far as bugs go, I'd prefer to not eat bugs with my cereal.

Pretty much the entire thing has no justification today.

If the blunt reasonings you give are the only explanations.

Huh what the fuck? If you're concerned about hurting animals, don't eat meat. It's not a necessity to eat beef, you're just pandering to your own ego by saying "well I might raise it like a piece of piece, but at least when it comes to killing it, I don't make it suffer. Unless I miss.".

If I want beef, and there's two ways to kill it, why not choose the one that's more humane? Say a person can profit 500 bucks by selling bananas or selling cocaine. Say they're both legal, yet cocaine is easier to sell but it's more harmful than bananas. Would you choose the easier way or the more ethical way? Both get to the same result. Which one would you choose?

Actually you know what they do if they miss the cut? They don't accept it as kosher. That means in the ancient world, they'd throw the entire thing out.

I doubt that the custom started with the birth of the religion, but I'm sure they gave it to non-jews. Please prove that they threw out the carcass.

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure that punching a hole through their brains kills them instantly.

Go see the killing floor. All that blood and seeing the cow suffering for 30 seconds after getting a nail in the head might make you turn vegan.

But when you respond ask yourself this:
Do kosher foods mean less risk to business owners? Less insurance? More demand leading to lower costs? Higher ethical standards? Mad cow disease never being an issue?

Lost McDonalds millions.... maybe they should go kosher and make more profits by not having so many lawsuits.

Now address every issue I bring up directly.

At 10/17/08 06:26 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/17/08 03:47 PM, Imperator wrote:

I'm smarter than you. I'll always be smarter than you and you can't catch me. DOES IT PISS YOU OFF? bwahaha maybe cellardoor, elfer and theMason have a good chance of catching me, but you? Never.

You might not be joking here.
Cellar/mason/proteas/impy/rav are the smartest people here. I put you over at #244, just below this guy.

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At 10/19/08 10:41 PM, poxpower wrote: Well at first, the Kosher selection is small and costs most since it's specialized food. So people who want kosher food have to demand more of it and have to pay more to get it. But as they demand it, more companies realize they have nothing to lose from it and then they convert all their food to kosher, thus lowering the price of kosher products and eliminating the non-kosher version completely.

That's not even remotely realistic. And everyone here knows it.

Stay within the realm of possibility at least.

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At 10/22/08 03:52 AM, n64kid wrote:

Internal fats are removed from kosher beef. Less fat in your food makes it healthier.

Dont eat meat if you're worried about eating fat.
And they'll still eat fatty beef anyway, what the hell is the difference? Ever heard of SMOKED MEAT? Not only is is made with pretty damn fat beef, there's TOO MUCH SALT and SMOKE in it too. Ridiculous.

Food isn't "less fat" because it's kosher, it's less fat if you pick food THAT HAS LESS FAT, such as: shellfish.
Oops that's not kosher though. Hey look at my briliiant argument: kosher food is bad for you because it's beef and beef has more fat than shrimp, which isn't kosher!

Man there's so many ways I can show you how wrong that argument you made was. I could spend days on this.
Whatever.

Cows must also be free of tumors, organs free of blemishes, and the cow cannot be diseased. Same for all animals. The USDA/FDA allows diseased animals to be sold and consumed, but not under kosher guidelines. Eating healthy meat causes less risks for becoming sick.

What? You cook it. When you cook it, all the bacteria dies anyway. The only morons who get sick are the ones who eat rotten meat or who don't cook it properly.
They're just throwing animals away.
And I love how you focus your ENTIRE argument on meat. Where's call for making kosher salsa, kosher crackers, kosher sugar and kosher cereal?

Bugs? That's the BEST you could come up with? What diseases are associated with bugs in food again? What health detriments?

Oh, right NONE WHATSOEVER. Hmmmmm oops ass-raped.

Which is it?

I'm through repeating that. Go read my posts.

And thanks for telling me to NOT eat kosher pork. Newsflash: there is no such thing as kosher pork.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-kosher-f ood.htm
If by chance you actually find "kosher bacon", know that YOU ARE BEING CHEATED AND LIED TO.

If you follow the BRILLIANT "still beneficial today" laws of those idiots, you can't even eat seafood, which is pretty much one of the healthiest damn things you can eat today in the meat department.

http://www.cosv.org.au/index.php?article =99

Yeah nice source there jackass, straight from the mouth of a rabbi. Wow, who would have thought that a RABBI would defend kosher rules as "better"?
here's a REAL source: http://health.usnews.com/articles/health /2008/01/11/is-kosher-food-safer.html

Dnd feel free to google others. You'll find, to your disappointment, that kosher food is not safer than regular food. Just cook it properly and wash your hands, which is what you're supposed to do in the first fucking place.

I asked someone about the wine thing and he had two reasons that he could think of.

Thank you for your outdated superstitions, now where's the science behind this bullshit and how is it relevant today again?

Oops, it's not, it's just pure racism now. Yeah I'm sure that champagne is really bad for poor little jews since it comes from french people. Man the chemical formula for alcohol must be completely out of whack when it's not a rabbi who lets grapes ferment in an oak barrel.

Admit it: there's no reason today for this. No call. None.

As far as bugs go, I'd prefer to not eat bugs with my cereal.

Bugs are among the healthiest things you can eat apparently. A LOT better than any kosher meat you'll ever find on the market. Sadly they're fucking gross, but if they can sneak some in my Trix, then I win on all fronts.

If I want beef, and there's two ways to kill it, why not choose the one that's more humane?

That's not the kosher way. i.e. throat-slicing.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?
qid=20080710203703AAFKnTQ ( don't like my source? google more, you'll get the same answers ).
IT had nothing to do with ethics or animal suffering, all they want is to drain the blood as fast as possible.
Seriously there's no fucking science behind "cut the throat", that's retarded. Why do you think we don't execute people on death row by doing that?

Because IT'S NOT THE BEST WAY TO KILL. Plus it doesn't even give you the best tasting meat.

I doubt that the custom started with the birth of the religion, but I'm sure they gave it to non-jews.

What non-jews? They all hung out together in tribes. There were no non-jews. The animal was garbage. They probably fed it to their dogs at that point.

Go see the killing floor. All that blood and seeing the cow suffering for 30 seconds after getting a nail in the head might make you turn vegan.

Yeah sometimes they miss. But don't think FOR A SECOND that kosher producers don't miss either or that they actually give a shit. You're not buying any more ethics for your kosher dollar, let me tell you that.

Lost McDonalds millions.... maybe they should go kosher and make more profits by not having so many lawsuits.

The only reason it would work for them to go kosher would be because it preys on people's misinformation, not because it makes the food any better.

I find it sad that in your haste to disagree with me, you side with these assholes.

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But what if I like salty meat D:

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Here's how capitalism works:

Someone has a product. This product is produced (thus, it is a product). The production process invloves many steps chosen by the manufacturer in order to provide that product. The product made available for purchase to the public. The product has a price put on it as determined by those involved in every step of the process from manufacturing to the moment it leaves the shelf - and beyond. The consumer (you) is given the opportunity to decide whether the product and the price are a value match. If the consumer decides that the price for that product is too high, the option exists to refrain from purchasing the product. If consumers find that the product does not meet the value suggested by the price then it will not sell. The bottom line is - if you think that the product is too expensive then don't buy it. Why complain about a value that you are satisfied with?

If it is the pricipal that bothers you, then perhaps that should have been the topic of the post instead. Do you know how little the cost is affected by this ridiculous superstition, anyway? If the practice stopped entirely, you would not notice a difference in the costs of your food item at all. None.

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At 10/22/08 05:43 AM, poxpower wrote:

Man there's so many ways I can show you how wrong that argument you made was. I could spend days on this.
Whatever.

You ignored the fact that it's still trimmed beef, and thus healthier. Telling me that beef jerky exists and is salted and smoked doesn't mean kosher beef doesn't have less fat.

What? You cook it. When you cook it, all the bacteria dies anyway. The only morons who get sick are the ones who eat rotten meat or who don't cook it properly.

1) Tumors aren't bacteria.
2) E. coli isn't the only danger animals can give humans.
3) Diseased animals have a higher risk of causing foodborne illness.
4) Ever order steak medium? The center is not hot enough for all the bacteria to die.

And I love how you focus your ENTIRE argument on meat. Where's call for making kosher salsa, kosher crackers, kosher sugar and kosher cereal?

I made arguments for all kosher foods. You ignored them.

Bugs? That's the BEST you could come up with? What diseases are associated with bugs in food again? What health detriments?

You can go eat a bug. I don't want to eat bugs, even if it's a small amount in my crackers/cereal. I told you that all produce is kosher, so kosher salsa just involves no milk or meat products to be involved in it's production. Helps vegetarians choose a salsa because as I've shown, products with traces of meat can be labeled as vegetarian.

Oh, right NONE WHATSOEVER. Hmmmmm oops ass-raped.

Take a picture of you eating a bug. Post it.

I'm through repeating that. Go read my posts.

You said it wastes time and money. Then you used pork as an example. Pork which has not wasted time or money by making it kosher as it cannot be kosher. So if it doesn't waste time and money, but you're still against it, then you're just totally against Jewish customs making you an ANTI-DENTITE.

And thanks for telling me to NOT eat kosher pork. Newsflash: there is no such thing as kosher pork.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-kosher-f ood.htm

That was the point I was making to you saying that it hasn't wasted time or money in it's production.

If by chance you actually find "kosher bacon", know that YOU ARE BEING CHEATED AND LIED TO.

Turkey bacon is kosher bacon.

If you follow the BRILLIANT "still beneficial today" laws of those idiots, you can't even eat seafood, which is pretty much one of the healthiest damn things you can eat today in the meat department.

Ethics. It's about prying an animal out of it's home. But this is a food that isn't kosher. You are not obligated to eat kosher foods, so what's your problem with observant jews eating shellfish? Kosher shellfish doesn't exist, so it can't waste time or money for the producers. Why bring that up?

Yeah nice source there jackass, straight from the mouth of a rabbi. Wow, who would have thought that a RABBI would defend kosher rules as "better"?
here's a REAL source: http://health.usnews.com/articles/health /2008/01/11/is-kosher-food-safer.html

Which came to the conclusion that it is safer, it's just not 100% safe. Your own source discredits you.

Dnd feel free to google others. You'll find, to your disappointment, that kosher food is not safer than regular food. Just cook it properly and wash your hands, which is what you're supposed to do in the first fucking place.

Yet it wastes time and money, yet other companies have a history of slack in this area, yet I never see recalls of kosher foods for health epidemics.

Thank you for your outdated superstitions, now where's the science behind this bullshit and how is it relevant today again?

How is this relevant to your wasting time and money claim? This just supports the anti-dentite claim.

Oops, it's not, it's just pure racism now. Yeah I'm sure that champagne is really bad for poor little jews since it comes from french people. Man the chemical formula for alcohol must be completely out of whack when it's not a rabbi who lets grapes ferment in an oak barrel.

Not all jews are rabbis.

Admit it: there's no reason today for this.

Tradition is plenty of reason. But why are you so concerned about one kosher law that doesn't affect you when there are many that do?

Bugs are among the healthiest things you can eat apparently. A LOT better than any kosher meat you'll ever find on the market. Sadly they're fucking gross, but if they can sneak some in my Trix, then I win on all fronts.

And if the bugs carry disease? Does the FDA/USDA regulate the bugs that go into production?

That's not the kosher way. i.e. throat-slicing.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?
qid=20080710203703AAFKnTQ ( don't like my source? google more, you'll get the same answers ).

Your source has conflicting answers and the best one was done by a 14 year old with a suspended account.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.sla ugh.html seems less biased and came up on google pretty high.

IT had nothing to do with ethics or animal suffering, all they want is to drain the blood as fast as possible.

It only has to do with ethics and animal slaughtering, as well as keeping it safe for human consumption.

Seriously there's no fucking science behind "cut the throat"

Except that I've shown you that it doesn't induce pain.

Because IT'S NOT THE BEST WAY TO KILL. Plus it doesn't even give you the best tasting meat.

The marbling is what determines the taste and tenderness of the beef. You make the assumption that the only benefit is taste then attempt to disprove it. You haven't shown me other than opinions that having a nail to the head doesn't leave animals suffering for 30 seconds and that having an animal with a cut throat suffers for any more than 4 seconds.

What non-jews? They all hung out together in tribes. There were no non-jews. The animal was garbage. They probably fed it to their dogs at that point.

I'm just going to ignore this.

Yeah sometimes they miss. But don't think FOR A SECOND that kosher producers don't miss either or that they actually give a shit. You're not buying any more ethics for your kosher dollar, let me tell you that.

You can tell me that, but can you prove it?

The only reason it would work for them to go kosher would be because it preys on people's misinformation, not because it makes the food any better.

Your links show that there's less health risks to consuming kosher foods, especially beef. Maybe you should read them instead of only reading what sides with you.

I find it sad that in your haste to disagree with me, you side with these assholes.

I don't haste to disagree with you. You said you hate kosher foods because you're paying a rabbi to bless your food. You were proved wrong. You then said it wastes time and money. You were proved wrong. So that leaves customs. You can disagree with the customs. But admit that you were wrong that no one benefits as companies do see less costs and more sales, vegans know if there are animal products in their salsa, and that kosher foods remain pure as you get grains with no bugs and animals without disease.

---

Hey Pox, let me know if I've got your argument right.

1) The Kosher standard is based on religious teachings. Because they aren't backed up by science, it doesn't make sense to use them as a standard.

2) The Kosher standard costs individuals time and money because you believe the cost is spread out over consumers.

If this is the case, I'm confused as to why you say Kosher is spreading because it doesn't cost companies anything.

3) You don't want to support a psuedo science by buying a product that followers of that psuedoscience can eat because money has been spent by the company to apply the Kosher standard.

Right? If thats your stance fine, don't by Kosher food, but let me ask you a few questions.

If company X sells a product and makes Y dollars off of that product a year, but could make Z more dollars by selling the product to people who look for the Kosher mark, why shouldn't they. Lets assume that they will actually make more money from Jews alone buying their product, than the cost of certifying it Kosher. Lets also assume that they don't then have to raise the prices on their products. Why shouldn't the company do it?

In this sense, the Jews are paying for the Kosher mark and only the Jews. Are you ok with it now, know that you aren't supporting it, it's just that the Jews can enjoy the same product you do. The product itself has not been altered, there was no price increase, and the company is making more money now that Jews are buying their product. How is this a problem? The Jews are supporting their own psuedoscience, not you.

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At 10/19/08 08:02 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/19/08 02:50 AM, Korriken wrote:

This kinda boggles my mind.

told you you didn't get this topic.

heh, according to you, anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't get it.

Wouldn't Jewish food be Kosher?

Yes, but I'm paying for the food itself. I want jewish food from that place and that guy, so that's what I pay for when I go there.

so.... it's ok to buy kosher food from a restaurant, but not from a store. The Jewish restaurant buys Kosher food, which is inspected by a rabbi, and that's fine. However, it's not fine to buy Kosher food from the store, because its inspected by a rabbi.

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At 10/22/08 02:31 PM, n64kid wrote:

You ignored the fact that it's still trimmed beef, and thus healthier.

Lol it's not, you can do it yourself at home if you care that much. They sell non-kosher meats that are far trimmer than any regular kosher cut.
There's even different cuts in kosher food that go from lean to fat.

Kosher meat is no guarantee of healthier, leaner meat.

1) Tumors aren't bacteria.
2) E. coli isn't the only danger animals can give humans.
3) Diseased animals have a higher risk of causing foodborne illness.
4) Ever order steak medium? The center is not hot enough for all the bacteria to die.

Cook your food?
I still don't see anything there that isn't fixed by cooking your shit properly, which is what health officials keep telling people over and over and over and over.

You try eating some raw kosher beef, see if that works out for you.

You can go eat a bug. I don't want to eat bugs

Ok so this isn't about "if it's better", this is just you being fussy.
Thanks Dr. Objectivity. I see what kind of standards you apply to "better" now.

Wow by that standard, why don't you just say " I think pigs are gross and kosher food protects me from ham, thus kosher food is scientificially better for us even today!".

You said it wastes time and money. Then you used pork as an example.

No, I said pork is an example of why the laws are retarded today because you can never eat pork under kosher law no matter how safe pork actually is today.

Ethics.

We're not talking about ethics, we're talking about science. You're trying to convince me that kosher laws are really sweet and beneficial EVEN TODAY.
"we shouldn't pry a shrimp out of it's home" is possibly the stupidest argument I could think of as to why it's measurably wrong to eat seafood.

This coming from people WHO EAT MAMMALS, NO LESS. Holy shit. Even on the ethics front, it fails miserably.

Which came to the conclusion that it is safer, it's just not 100% safe. Your own source discredits you.

No, all they say is that "we have no idea but I guess it would make sense if it turned out to be safer".
People flock to it because they're idiots who are safety-obsessed and who don't even realize that they expose themselves to 50 times the risk by eating medium-rare steak instead of well-done, defeating the entire purpose of making it kosher anyway.

yet I never see recalls of kosher foods for health epidemics.

That's because recalls are usually for meats and milk products and they catch them before they reach shelves anyway. In the case of meats, they outright kill the frickin cows in the field, way before they'd ever become "kosher".
It's the same cows btw, they just kill some in a different way.

Not all jews are rabbis.

STOP DODGING YOU DICK.
Tell me RIGHT NOW, how it's beneficial for US today that they forbid wine and grape products from non-jews.

TELL ME.

Oops, not so easy defending them now, is it? You forgot that "kosher" doesn't JUST apply to beef and pork.

Tradition is plenty of reason.

Oh I see so now you've shifted 180 degrees and are no longer trying to prove that it's a benefit, but that it's great because it's their tradition ( their racist tradition no less ).

Wow well you've officially failed your argument then. Congrats.

And if the bugs carry disease? Does the FDA/USDA regulate the bugs that go into production?

I haven't ever heard of a single case of anyone catching a magic "bug disease" from cereal. Ever. You're more likely to get it from microscopic mushrooms in the plants and those aren't caught by your precious rabbis, you need chemists. You know, REAL scientists.
If all you did was listen to stupid kosher laws, trust me, you'd get sick way more often. The only reasons they appear to be "safer" is only because they tack on THEIR process to the already sufficient scientific process. So people assume "well they do EXTRA THINGS, so it can't be LESS safe, right?".
Right indeed.

Unrelated: did you know there's a mental disorder that makes people wash their hands 40 times per day? Well at least they'll be clean lol!!! Can't prove that's not a benefit right?".

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.sla ugh.html seems less biased and came up on google pretty high.

Yeah I love the part that says it HAS TO BE A GUY WHO KILLS THE ANIMAL.
Wow, racist on the grape, sexist on the meats. Shit, please, keep going as to how great kosher food is!
Then it just goes on to say that many consider it wrong to kill the cattle if you don't stun it ( i.e. kosher way = no stunning ).
"Captive bolt and electric stunning will induce instantaneous insensibility when they are properly applied."

Plus, look at the process they have to use to slice the animal's throat hahaha. It has NOTHING TO DO with how they used to do it in ancient times. It's ridiculous to keep calling this "tradition".

The marbling is what determines the taste and tenderness of the beef.

Also depends on how stressed the animal is when you kill it. That's a well-known fact ( or so I thought ). Not to mention they use other horrible methods to keep the animal from moving around too much in the fields... Nothing that buying kosher meat would ever prevent.
Stunning the animal relaxes it's muscles and makes the meat more tender. Kosher meat might appear more tender at times because they often salt and smoke it to preserve it, but in the process they make it a LOT less healthy.

Smoked meat is pretty bad for you.

You can tell me that, but can you prove it?

Prove what? That they miss? Read the link you posted about the process, you'll see there's a shitload of misses.
Here, more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point /2977678.stm