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Also, I'd like to point out that kosher doesn't necessarily mean that the food has been blessed by a rabbi, it only indicates that a rabbi has confirmed that the food conforms to Jewish dietary laws.

At 10/16/08 05:29 PM, Elfer wrote: Also, I'd like to point out that kosher doesn't necessarily mean that the food has been blessed by a rabbi, it only indicates that a rabbi has confirmed that the food conforms to Jewish dietary laws.

He inspects it and gets paid for it, doesn't he? Thereby taking away a job from a health inspector, or a marketing consult, or someone else in a legitimate occupation, depending on how the money spent on the rabbi would have otherwise been invested.

At 10/16/08 05:33 PM, AapoJoki wrote: He inspects it and gets paid for it, doesn't he? Thereby taking away a job from a health inspector, or a marketing consult, or someone else in a legitimate occupation, depending on how the money spent on the rabbi would have otherwise been invested.

What the fuck is wrong with you people? If the rabbi isn't there, the company doesn't receive the revenue associated with the kosher certification. Therefore, the money spen ton the rabbi COULDN'T be spent anywhere else, because without the rabbi, the company wouldn't have the rabbi money. Get it?

At 10/16/08 05:43 PM, Elfer wrote:

What the fuck is wrong with you people? If the rabbi isn't there, the company doesn't receive the revenue associated with the kosher certification. Therefore, the money spen ton the rabbi COULDN'T be spent anywhere else, because without the rabbi, the company wouldn't have the rabbi money. Get it?

The actual price of making the food GOES UP, dude.
It is not the only factor that determines retail price, but adding a Rabbi in a process where there shouldn't be one simply costs more money and that cost is divided among all the costumers regardless of their religion.

Obviously if the company goes from 10 costumers to 10 000 000, the retail price will fall, but the fabrication cost will still be higher AND you are STILL supporting the Rabbi with every purchase you make, even if the food actually ends up costing LESS at the grocery store.

p.s. I never claimed he "replaces" some other dude, don't know where he got that from.

At 10/16/08 05:57 PM, poxpower wrote: The actual price of making the food GOES UP, dude.
It is not the only factor that determines retail price, but adding a Rabbi in a process where there shouldn't be one simply costs more money and that cost is divided among all the costumers regardless of their religion.

I really don't know how to explain this any more clearly to you. Yes the money all goes into and comes out of the same place, but the rabbi is only introduced for the purpose of obtaining those extra fanatic dollars. It's like a side transaction where the company acts as an intermediary between religious nut jobs and a rabbi. Your money is not involved nor considered in the process.

The marginal utility of the rabbi to the company is greater than his salary. As long as there's people willing to pay for the service (Keep in mind that this DOESN'T include you) then the company has an incentive to provide it. Economically speaking, if any of the burden had to be transferred to the non-religious, the company wouldn't offer the service.

Obviously if the company goes from 10 costumers to 10 000 000, the retail price will fall, but the fabrication cost will still be higher AND you are STILL supporting the Rabbi with every purchase you make, even if the food actually ends up costing LESS at the grocery store.

Seriously dude, differential vs. integral. It's really, really important here.

p.s. I never claimed he "replaces" some other dude, don't know where he got that from.

I was replying to somebody else?

At 10/16/08 05:57 PM, poxpower wrote: p.s. I never claimed he "replaces" some other dude, don't know where he got that from.

If the consumers started focusing on things that matter, e.g "Is this food really healthy?" or "Is it environmentally friendly?" or simply "Does this product meet quality I demand?", instead of just "Is this food clean according to God?", then companies could get rid of rabbis and hire people in real jobs instead while also genuinely improving the product (and in larger scale, our standard of living).

The point is that companies shouldn't try to appeal to Jewish consumers, they could make similar revenue by appealing to more informed demographics. I'm sure there's a hippy somewhere who never buys anything until he sees an environmental label on the product. They need people in other jobs to meet the demands of these demographics, and it would have an improving effect on the society as a whole.

I'm also skeptical how much revenue a company can generate by making something kosher. Jews aren't a huge minority, so where the hell does such a demand for kosher even come from?

At 10/16/08 05:33 PM, AapoJoki wrote: He inspects it and gets paid for it, doesn't he? Thereby taking away a job from a health inspector, or a marketing consult, or someone else in a legitimate occupation, depending on how the money spent on the rabbi would have otherwise been invested.

Except for the fact there's ZERO indication that kosher products bypass FDA regulations, you'd have a point.....

So no, he's not taking away the job of the health inspector. He's just an addition to the whole, already existing process.

The actual price of making the food GOES UP, dude.

with the result being you pay less at the supermarket, given the increase in revenue and marketability......
Price of making the food goes up, along with the revenue.
The revenue greatly outweighs the cost of making it kosher, which drives the price of the item down.

So you want us to pay extra to get a rabbi to lose his job.

At 10/16/08 06:03 PM, Elfer wrote:

The marginal utility of the rabbi to the company is greater than his salary. As long as there's people willing to pay for the service (Keep in mind that this DOESN'T include you) then the company has an incentive to provide it. Economically speaking, if any of the burden had to be transferred to the non-religious, the company wouldn't offer the service.

This isn't about any one company's incentive to hire a rabbi, it's about the principle that I don't want any rabbi employed anywhere in the world, and certainly not approving MY food.
Hence, I shall not purchase products from companies who think they can just turn an extra buck off everyone's apathy.

Of course the supreme irony would be if they manufactured both a kosher brand and a non kosher brand of the same product, then they would totally get me.

I was replying to somebody else?

I know but it seemed like you included my argument with his too so I just want to make that clear.

At 10/16/08 06:12 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

then companies could get rid of rabbis and hire people in real jobs

They are already forced to abide by certain food standards, the rabbi is just 100% extra, he doesn't replace anyone or do anything useful.

The point is that companies shouldn't try to appeal to Jewish consumers, they could make similar revenue by appealing to more informed demographics.

I doubt that.

I'm also skeptical how much revenue a company can generate by making something kosher. Jews aren't a huge minority, so where the hell does such a demand for kosher even come from?

Since it costs practically nothing to have a rabbi come inspect your food once in a while, it's worth it for big companies for the extra X million poeple they will sell to. Religious people WILL check for it, and there's millions of them. So if you want the extra market in, say, NYC, then you make your hot dog buns kosher and since it costs more to make one kind just for NYC, ALL your hot dog buns will be kosher.
No one complains, you get the religious dollar and KA-CHING, you've just funded pseudoscience and no one cares.

There is a lot of fighting here, what happened to respecting each others opinions not being ignorant?

At 10/16/08 06:38 PM, poxpower wrote: They are already forced to abide by certain food standards, the rabbi is just 100% extra, he doesn't replace anyone or do anything useful.

The money spent on the rabbi is money gone to waste. If there wasn't a demand for such a non-service, that money would find another hole to fit into. Maybe it's the consumers that benefit from the cheaper prices, maybe the workers or CEOs gain a raise, maybe the shareholders get higher dividends. Or maybe the money is used to improve the product itself.

At 10/16/08 06:12 PM, AapoJoki wrote: then companies could get rid of rabbis and hire people in real jobs instead while also genuinely improving the product (and in larger scale, our standard of living).

I've been trying to tell you this, if the rabbi goes, the money that they were using to pay the rabbi goes as well. They're not going to hire a superfluous inspection by a religious authority for no reason, they need some economic incentive to do it.

At 10/16/08 05:57 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/16/08 05:43 PM, Elfer wrote:

What the fuck is wrong with you people? If the rabbi isn't there, the company doesn't receive the revenue associated with the kosher certification. Therefore, the money spen ton the rabbi COULDN'T be spent anywhere else, because without the rabbi, the company wouldn't have the rabbi money. Get it?

The actual price of making the food GOES UP, dude.
It is not the only factor that determines retail price, but adding a Rabbi in a process where there shouldn't be one simply costs more money and that cost is divided among all the costumers regardless of their religion.

Obviously if the company goes from 10 costumers to 10 000 000, the retail price will fall, but the fabrication cost will still be higher AND you are STILL supporting the Rabbi with every purchase you make, even if the food actually ends up costing LESS at the grocery store.

So you're not even mad about it costing you money, since it actually makes the company money and thus makes their product cheaper to the consumer, but rather you're mad that a rabbi is making a living? So this really does all come back to your intense, probably seizure-inducing hatred of all things religious.

p.s. I never claimed he "replaces" some other dude, don't know where he got that from.

Another guy said that.

At 10/16/08 06:55 PM, Elfer wrote: they need some economic incentive to do it.

Get rid of the incentive.

At 10/16/08 07:01 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

At 10/16/08 06:55 PM, Elfer wrote: they need some economic incentive to do it.

Get rid of the incentive.

The incentive being orthodox jews? You can try to get rid of that if you want, but historically, serious attempts at that have been remembered unfavourably.

At 10/16/08 07:01 PM, AapoJoki wrote:
Get rid of the incentive.

Totally different protest.

Otherwise, all this amounts to is "We should protest rabbis being hired to make our food cheaper!!"

Sorry, but I'm not usually not one to protest over the convenience of something.......the inconvenience, sure.....but protesting because the Jewish community makes your peanut butter cheaper?

Not gonna roll with ya on that one there.....

Ha ha, AapoJoki's a genocidal monster.

The incentive being that there is a demand for kosher, that's remains profitable. With extensive boycotting, this incentive disappears, because more people would rather by products that have NOT been subjected to useless inspections.

Jews are a small minority. Kosher food should only have a niche audience.

P.S Can you guys keep the anti-semitic accusations away from this thread, it's really fucking lame.

At 10/16/08 07:14 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

P.S Can you guys keep the anti-semitic accusations away from this thread, it's really fucking lame.

Oh, lighten up, Himmler.

At 10/16/08 06:50 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

The money spent on the rabbi is money gone to waste.

No argument there, but we have no right to tell people how to spend their money.
However, I do have the right ( and I think I am justified in ) to boycott things that are made using a process I don't agree with.

At 10/16/08 06:57 PM, Menelaus wrote:

So you're not even mad about it costing you money

YOu don't realize that IT DOES COST MONEY THAT SHOULDN'T BE SPENT.
The only reason it seems like it lowers the price of a product is because that product gains an edge on the others that is purely artificial and not related to the fabrication process.

If ALL the food had to be kosher, there would be a net increase in costs and nowhere to sink it and claim that it "actually makes it cheaper".

Right now the price of the rabbi is sunk in the extra edge the food gets, unfairly and unethically, in my opinion, but whatever.

has any one gone over how being able to sell to more people counterbalances the spending required to sell it to said people?

Pox, are you by any chance also angry that companies have marketing departments? I mean, it costs them money that doesn't go to improving their services at all, but gives them a market edge and actually makes things cheaper. Those bastards.

here, elfer, let me get you another example for this "cost thing".

Food didn't use to have advertising. But the second a company figured they could spend like 100 bucks on an add and make 110 bucks, then they started doing it. The product got an "unfair" edge over the others and through simple economics, the company grew and was able to lower their prices.

So others followed suit and now they're locked in a battle of one-upsmanship to try and out-do each other via ads, thus costing us all THOUSANDS OF BUCKS PER YEAR just for the cost of publicity we all hate.

Is that what we want? When all the food will be kosher, there won't be any cost decreases anywhere, instead they'll all try to out-kosher the other like a bunch of retards.

At 10/16/08 07:24 PM, poxpower wrote: here, elfer, let me get you another example for this "cost thing".

Is that what we want? When all the food will be kosher, there won't be any cost decreases anywhere, instead they'll all try to out-kosher the other like a bunch of retards.

Me not being elfer aside, kosher is only applicable and profitable for certain foods. We're safe from you dystopian all-kosher future. Also, you seem to hate companies making money.

At 10/16/08 07:22 PM, Menelaus wrote: Pox, are you by any chance also angry that companies have marketing departments? I mean, it costs them money that doesn't go to improving their services at all, but gives them a market edge and actually makes things cheaper. Those bastards.

Ironic that you'd post that as I was typing the other thing.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that we'd rather NOT pay any advertising premium on the food we buy since it doesn't make the product better in any way, shape or form but costs us more.

Advertising has a long history too. It started out as just informing people about the product. If you look at really old ads, you'll see that they are generally mostly text that describes the product. But through constant ad wars, they're found that it works better to instead associate a feeling or a lifestyle with the products, like "cool people drink Mountain Dew". 100 years ago, you would have had some ad like "Mountain Dew, the delicious carbonated beverage that contains more dew than any other! Marvel at the bubbles and at how it turns your urine a healthy yellow!" with a small picture of the bottle, possibly being held by a guy with a tophat.

But the difference is that I don't know for sure that it's possible to NOT have advertising at all.
I mean, it's fine to let people know about your product. BUt I know FOR A FACT that we don't need kosher food.
That's 100% certain. We should not spend ANYTHING on that service, it's is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

YOu don't realize that IT DOES COST MONEY THAT SHOULDN'T BE SPENT.

It ultimately saves me money at the grocery store.

If I found out that making flank steak with anti-Bigfoot blessings would ultimately lower the price of flank steak due to the increased market, I'd be buyin myself some anti-bigfoot flank steak.

At 10/16/08 07:17 PM, SolInvictus wrote: has any one gone over how being able to sell to more people counterbalances the spending required to sell it to said people?

Pretty sure Elfer's been tryin to explain just that.

I've been trying to say something close to that by saying the end result of all this is cheaper peanut butter, but it clearly didn't get through......

Can I say that this is an utter failure.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT GOES ON IN MAKING THINGS KOSHER?

There are no blessings, and in most cases, no Rabbis.

To meet Kosher standards, food only needs to be inspected. Blessings come before a Jewish person eats their food. Repeat, the only blessings involved with Kosher food are Jews doing them right before consumption.

Fact 1: Rabbi as pertaining to Kashrut is not a clergymen but rather a person certified and trained to inspect factories. For instance, at a kosher cafe at my university, the kitchen supervisor, who was NOT a rabbi, was synonymous as the kashrut supervisor, and no extra money was spent beyond a regular supervisor.

Fact 2: Kosher standards do go beyond government standards when concerning food.
i.e. All grains/produce are kosher. However, many grains may contain bugs before processed in a factory. This is ok by FDA and USDA standards. However, it is not ok by Kosher standards. An inspector, which does NOT have to be a Rabbi nor even Jewish will have to inspect all grains and make sure there is anywhere from scarce traces of bugs to absolutely none.

Fact 3: Vegans and vegetarians look for Kosher foods because, once again, Kosher laws are more strict than the US government laws. Some products are sold as "vegetarian" yet contain traces of pork/other animals. If there is a Kosher label, then the company cannot have traces of animal meat in a product, thereby making it safe for vegetarians.

Fact 4: The kosher inspector does not get paid a substantial amount of money and the difference between paychecks of a non Kosher inspector is immaterial. This choice of inspectors would only be undertaken by companies if they knew that they were receiving extra revenues. Seeing how 80% of Kosher food is consumed by NON Jews, the higher revenues help the companies by buying more supply to meet demand, thereby lowering costs of production, which easily offsets anything paid to inspectors, and might keep costs LOWER in the long run.

Fact 5: Sick/diseased animals can be sold for US consumption. If it is Kosher meat, this cannot be. On top of this, most Kosher meat is considered "Glatt Kosher" where all the animal must be clean of blemishes and tumors, which is not true in non Kosher meat. Kosher meat is healthier as they are leaner since all fat around organs are removed because of prohibition against certain internal fat.

Kosher foods sell
http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/8 62026.html

Why people buy kosher
35% of the respondents in the national survey said that they bought kosher because they liked the taste or flavor and really wanted the product.

16% said they bought kosher because of the guidelines under which the products were produced.

8% buy kosher because "they are good products."

5% feel products are safe or healthier

Though rooted in religion, ironically, kosher for kosher's sake was among the least popular reasons for purchasing. Only 8% said they buy kosher products because they are observant, while an additional 4% said they do so because the products are consistent with Halal.

A further 8% purchase kosher products because they are looking for vegetarian products, either for religious or dietary reasons.

So yes, Kosher foods are healthier, more ethical, and can reduce the cost of making the product.

Sylvos I'm sure can confirm all of this.

At 10/16/08 07:30 PM, poxpower wrote:

That's 100% certain. We should not spend ANYTHING on that service, it's is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

But we don't spend money on it. We've come to the conclusion that it saves us money through the wonders of capitalism.

So others followed suit and now they're locked in a battle of one-upsmanship to try and out-do each other via ads, thus costing us all THOUSANDS OF BUCKS PER YEAR just for the cost of publicity we all hate.

Yes. Competing companies means higher prices for the consumer.......

I'm tired, can you just call yourself an idiot so I can go to bed?

So yes, Kosher foods are healthier, more ethical, and can reduce the cost of making the product.

n64kid, it's religious, therefore it's BAAAADDDDD!!!

You should buy the crappier, ethically challengable, more expensive food to avoid all that mumbo-jumbo religious stuff!!!!

At 10/16/08 07:54 PM, Imperator wrote:

It ultimately saves me money at the grocery store.

*er*
THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
Dear lord

At 10/16/08 07:54 PM, n64kid wrote:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT GOES ON IN MAKING THINGS KOSHER?

To get the right to put the label on a product, you need to deal with specific rabinical organizations who have varying ways of insuring the food that is approved is kosher.
This costs money.

The end.

Kosher products are not safer, healthier, or less expensive because they're kosher, all those are unintended consequences of the process and of people buying the products.

Who do you think can determine if food is safer or healthier? It's not the rabbi, nimrod, it's the food inspectors. Guess what that means? That means the rabbi isn't doing anything useful since there has to be a guy coming after him to check on what he's done anyway.

So ditch that shit.

At 10/16/08 07:57 PM, Imperator wrote:
Yes. Competing companies means higher prices for the consumer.......

I think I can officially start a hall of fame of all the insane straw men arguments you make.