Why Israel?

[aninjaman]

Why is Israel so important to protect? During the VP debate Palin and Biden spent 10 minutes saying who love Israel more. I understand that Israel is our main ally in the middle east but candidates have said if Iran attacks Israel America will attack Iran. Why should America care about the wars Israel is in?

[cellardoor6]

1) Israel is basically the only country in the Middle East that has a stable democratic system. Israel is basically the only place in the Middle East where people have an overtly pro-western outlook. In my experience in Israel, I observed something that I know doesn't exist elsewhere in the Middle East... peaceful coexistence between religious and ethnic minorities. A Jewish man in full orthodox clothing can walk into the Muslim sector of Jerusalem and buy something from a Muslim vendor, exchange a handshake and a "Shalom" or "Salam" and be on his way, and vice versa. There is some some segregation (not forced) and there is some mistrust between races and religions but it doesn't spill over into violence.

Israel as seen as model for the rest of the Middle East in that regard so it's a threat to Israel is a pretty big issue.

2) While there are a whole host of logical, secular reasons for supporting Israel, it doesn't take a genius to realize that they are trying to coddle religious voters. Most Americans are Christians. Within that demographic there are a whole lot of Zionist Christians that believe that Israel's existence is a miracle, that it is their duty as Christians to support and "bless" Israel and so forth. A candidate who doesn't emphasize defense of Israel would be alienating a large amount of voters.

3) Teh j00z controle Amerikkka.

[cHunter]

At 10/8/08 10:01 PM, aninjaman wrote: if Iran attacks Israel America will attack Iran. Why should America care about the wars Israel is in?

Because they're one of the United State's allies.

3) Teh j00z controle Amerikkka.

I concur.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 10/8/08 10:40 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: 2) A candidate who doesn't emphasize defense of Israel would be alienating a large amount of voters.

Since when does a president have to keep his election promises?

[SmilezRoyale]

At 10/9/08 02:37 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 10/8/08 10:40 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: 2) A candidate who doesn't emphasize defense of Israel would be alienating a large amount of voters.

Since when does a president have to keep his election promises?

He Doesn't, George Bush Didn't keep his promises on foreign policy. Mccain could start pushing action to bomb Israel day after inauguration. Only that such is more unlikely than what bush did because McCain has a federal voting record. The reason Mccain likely won't bomb israel are the same reasons Obama likely won't restrict tax hikes to the top 1%. My guess is, as soon as people start thinking or start to beleive that things are returning to normal, higher taxes on the top 10%, then the top 25% and finally the top 50% will seem more acceptable, the reason this IS an acceptable assumption is because Obama has never voted against any tax increase on the grounds that it was harsh or unfair to anyone lower than the top 1%.

[bcdemon]

At 10/8/08 10:01 PM, aninjaman wrote: Why is Israel so important to protect?

You know how Americans favorite phrase is "god bless America", maybe they feel that if they help Israel to no end, then god might really really bless America.

[mrwinneranimator]

Cause lazymuffin is in there

[aninjaman]

At 10/8/08 10:40 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: 1) Israel is basically the only country in the Middle East that has a stable democratic system. Israel etc. etc.

I agree that Israel is a very peaceful country by middle east standards but there is still alot of violence between Palestinians and Israelites and America's unwavering support of Israel has made it so its a deathtrap in American politics to even mention that Isael is not entirely in the right on the palestine issue.

2) Most Americans are Christians. Within that demographic there are a whole lot of Zionist Christians that believe that Israel's existence is a miracle, that it is their duty as Christians to support and "bless" Israel and so forth. A candidate who doesn't emphasize defense of Israel would be alienating a large amount of voters.

The whole zionist religion seems to be supported by the Israel lobby to get support for Israel.

3) Teh j00z controle Amerikkka.

Teh j00z are at it again.

[drDAK]

Christian societies like America feel like they owe allegiance to them.

I wonder if Christianity was founded on Islam... how would that affect our relations in the middle east?

[cellardoor6]

At 10/9/08 05:26 PM, aninjaman wrote:

At 10/8/08 10:40 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: 1) Israel is basically the only country in the Middle East that has a stable democratic system. Israel etc. etc.

I agree that Israel is a very peaceful country by middle east standards but there is still alot of violence between Palestinians and Israelites

Israelis, not Israelites. This is the year 2008 not 2008BC.

Anyway, the violence between Palestinians and Israelis doesn't take place within Israel. Within Israel, Arab Israelis and self-proclaimed Palestinians peacefully coexist with the Jews and Christians.

Take a step into the West Bank or God forbid, Gaza, and you're immediately putting yourself at risk if you're a westerner or a Jew. You're likely to get kidnapped and killed, really. The West Bank not so much but definitely Gaza.

The whole zionist religion seems to be supported by the Israel lobby to get support for Israel.

Other way around. The Pro-Israel lobby exists simply because it has the support of a large swathe of the US population. Someone could argue that it's the political manifestation of the Zionist belief system, either Christian or Jewish, but that's not necessarily true.

There are plenty of people who support Israel simply out of logic rather than religious beliefs. And then again, think about it this way... Israel is our ally. We have other allies in the world, but none of them have been attacked so many times in the last several decades as Israel. The power of the pro-israel lobby and the importance that people put on Israel's defense is largely a result of the fact that their existence is much more fragile than that of our other allies.

If the UK for example was surrounded by countries that wanted it to be destroyed, was constantly being attacked by terrorists, and was threatened with total annihilation by our enemies, I'm pretty sure we'd have a pretty hardcore Pro-UK lobby grabbing attention. I'm pretty sure our VP candidates would have stressed their support for the UK just as much as they do Israel.

3) Teh j00z controle Amerikkka.

Teh j00z are at it again.

Lolz, did u no dat dah j00z waz responzibul for hurricain ike?!1

[PineappleWinnie]

At 10/8/08 11:52 PM, cHunter wrote:

At 10/8/08 10:01 PM, aninjaman wrote: if Iran attacks Israel America will attack Iran. Why should America care about the wars Israel is in?

Because they're one of the United State's allies.

The USA is losing allies FAST. Because the USA is an ass on everyone, even on nations that haven't done anything. In the end, Israel may end up being the sole ally of the USA.

And democracy is not very solid in either the USA or Israel. Switzerland, for example, is far, far, far more democratic than the USA or Israel.

[cellardoor6]

At 10/10/08 12:32 AM, PineappleWinnie wrote: The USA is losing allies FAST.

Which ones.

List them, go.

Because the USA is an ass on everyone, even on nations that haven't done anything.

Like who, and how?

In the end, Israel may end up being the sole ally of the USA.

Preposterous.

And democracy is not very solid in either the USA or Israel.

Absurd.

Switzerland, for example, is far, far, far more democratic than the USA or Israel.

Prove it.

[Fierce-Deity]

This is a long and dark story that spans 1000s of years. It is very, very complicated, but I will try to pick out the most important pieces of what could be a 400 page book on the subject.

Basically, to win a presidential candidacy in the modern day, you must have the support of rich Jewish people. This is because these people own nearly every bank in the world, meaning they are very rich. Because of there massive, multi-trillion dollar earnings, this group of people bought out a good 95% of the U.S. media many years ago. This meaning that if they don't like you, they will force the news stations to portray that. This is why the best 3 candidates, most namely Ron Paul, were not considered by the news to be "major" runners, because these people would have done things that caused these rich people to have less power. Shutting down the Federal Reserve was a big thing that these people were against, as they currently have the ability to print paper and say "this is worth 100 dollars because we say so" and the good candidates would have ruined that for them by getting rid of their ability to do that.

So in other words, they have to kiss Israel's ass because if they don't, the media will ignore/hate them, causing them to lose the candidacy. This is also why you only see puppets of the rich in the White House, because if they aren't puppets of the rich then the media will portray them as people who don't have a chance, causing the idiots in the U.S. to ignore them even though they are the best candidates.

In retrospect, this means that if we want a truly good, President that isn't corrupt, a true representation of the beliefs of the Founding Fathers, the guy would have to play the game of the rich, then turn it around on them. Actually, that is exactly what JFK did, and look at how those pricks took care of that little problem.

[XaosLegend]

Hmm Isreal, can we have a more convoluted topic?

So first of all you can't really accuse Isreal of any wrongdoing ever because then your an anti-semite. (I guess there aren't enough palestinians in America to make black and white support for isreal an antipalistinian bigoted fopah.)

If you looked at how the US settled the N.American territories by attacking and decimating the native americans you will find a good parallel to what Isreal has done and is doing to Palestinians. It's not that the Palestinians don't suffer attacks by Palestinians, it's the fact that Palestinians were invaded by europeans and are winning the conflict quite onesidedly in an expansion of aggresion. It's like if I found a cabin in the woods being lived in by a family and just decided to move in without asking them or compensating them. They ask me to leave: I don't. They get pushy: I push back. I bring more of my friends to live there: they attack violently: I slaughter the family and declare myself the victim.

The palestinians are still being cut out of the best parts of their land, into basically little Isreal policed areas like indian reservations, with a triggerhappy Isreal force doing as they please and mowing down any resistance. (The numbers of lives lost in the conflict average out to 10:1 Palestinians dead to Isrealis dead.) The Palestinians are sanctioned for continued resistance that resembles remarkably the resistance to the English by the Irish in recent decades before settlements were made.

Just call it what it is a conflict betweeen two groups where one is winning quite handily and aquiring concessions from the other. Stop calling the Isrealis victims, two men get in a bar fight over a spilled drink and one gets the spit beat out of him, I don't call the guy winning a victim, not when the guy on the ground is now missing half his teeth and suffers two broken legs. the guy on the ground may be an idiot but the demonic characterization ends there.

Don;t get me wrong, killing civilians is wrong, and sick, but if you use that logic you will find that bombings and mortar attacks ect have killed far more noncombatants on the palestinian side than the other. If you don't care because Isreal is our ally and might as well support our ally no matter what they do, well then you're an imperialist supporter of military aggresion and next time a hitler arises go join the fight for the fatherland, otherwise you should care about this stuff and the massive dissinformation campaign to missinform an electorate about something they have strong influence over.

Of course the real reason we support isreal so strongly is because they can be our surragates in the region to carry out attacks throughout the region and give us justification to pressure middle eastern countries with direct military and economic threat to ensure compliance to our economic interests, as well as it being a huge military base for the US. (Isreal has recieved 1/2 of all US "aid"(mostly military) given to foreign nations since it's founding, quite alot for 1 country, read the writing on the wall, it's clearly written and easy to read.)

The truth is that at this point many Palestinians would like to see Isreal wiped off the map, same as I do in my feelings toward Osama (rediculous the haven't captured that prick) To me the right thing is peace and aquisition of territory through agreement and cooperation, exchange of goods labor ect, not through military force, death and the gamut of bullying techniques.

[SolInvictus]

i don't know what it is with you people and having to come up with ridiculously convoluted and long-winded explanations often involving, or bordering on, Jewish world control theories.

[zoolrule]

Becose THE JEwss CONTROL THE WORLD and they wAnnna Kill us ALll they contrl de Fckcing media omfg ih ahte them they evil they kill inonncant childs in Palesitnian they stela land and they is v3ry much evil %#!%

[XaosLegend]

At 10/10/08 05:13 PM, SolInvictus wrote: i don't know what it is with you people and having to come up with ridiculously convoluted and long-winded explanations often involving, or bordering on, Jewish world control theories.

I don't know what it is with people who use arguements with zero substance. I personally never said anything about the jews controlling the world, clearly they don't. I merely mentioned some facts about the issue and made some not too difficult to reach conclusions. But if you would prefer I pat you on the head and tell you the world is made up of good guys and bad guys and all our friends are all the good guys and all their enemies are all the bad guys sure *pat *pat, now go to bed it's time for your nap.

[SolInvictus]

At 10/10/08 06:45 PM, XaosLegend wrote: I don't know what it is with people who use arguements with zero substance.

you know that a fairly general comment proceeding your's may refer to other posts right?
i didn't thoroughly read your comment but it seems to be somewhat of an over-analysis, but by no means is it wrong as reasoning and importance of such an alliance varies.

[XaosLegend]

At 10/10/08 07:03 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 10/10/08 06:45 PM, XaosLegend wrote: I don't know what it is with people who use arguements with zero substance.

you know that a fairly general comment proceeding your's may refer to other posts right?
i didn't thoroughly read your comment but it seems to be somewhat of an over-analysis, but by no means is it wrong as reasoning and importance of such an alliance varies.

Yeah i kind of wondered if you weren't talking to me right after i posted, the guy right before me is not at all correct in what he's saying in my opinion (one of sanity). Anyway sorry for the overflame i've been a bit deranged today regardless.

[Oblivia]

At 10/10/08 07:22 AM, XaosLegend wrote: Hmm Isreal, can we have a more convoluted topic?

So first of all you can't really accuse Isreal of any wrongdoing ever because then your an anti-semite. (I guess there aren't enough palestinians in America to make black and white support for isreal an antipalistinian bigoted fopah.)

Criticizing the Israeli Government is one thing but when people "criticize" Israel by demanding that all of the Jews into eviction including the ones in America for "conspiring" with Israel would be a major factor of why the "criticizers" are being called Anti-Semitic.

If you looked at how the US settled the N.American territories by attacking and decimating the native americans you will find a good parallel to what Isreal has done and is doing to Palestinians. It's not that the Palestinians don't suffer attacks by Palestinians, it's the fact that Palestinians were invaded by europeans and are winning the conflict quite onesidedly in an expansion of aggresion. It's like if I found a cabin in the woods being lived in by a family and just decided to move in without asking them or compensating them. They ask me to leave: I don't. They get pushy: I push back. I bring more of my friends to live there: they attack violently: I slaughter the family and declare myself the victim.

The thing about that is the fact the Zionist movement had actually bought the land (which was practically a neglected wasteland at the time) prior to WWI. However, the Ottomans got so paranoid that they forced Arabs into Former Palestine to make it so that the Arabs had more demographic power over the Jews.

It was after World War I where the Ottoman Empire came to its inevitable end of being shattered. During the process of Britain and France carving of what was left the Islamic Empire, Britain passed the Balfour Declaration which approved the creation of the Jewish State, thus allowing Jewish immigration. But the commitment to the Balfour Declaration lasted so long. The Jewish Community went as far as calling Britain a traitor when British Troops forced fleeing Jewish Immigrants back to the clutches of Nazi Germany. In short, this is at the responsibility of Britain, not the Zionist.

The palestinians are still being cut out of the best parts of their land, into basically little Isreal policed areas like indian reservations, with a triggerhappy Isreal force doing as they please and mowing down any resistance. (The numbers of lives lost in the conflict average out to 10:1 Palestinians dead to Isrealis dead.) The Palestinians are sanctioned for continued resistance that resembles remarkably the resistance to the English by the Irish in recent decades before settlements were made.

It is strange that Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians for the matter can move and live freely around Israel. The reasons of why some Palestinians are in secured locations like Gaza is because it is those places that have most radical extremist such as the Hamas. There are hardly similarities between the Irish and Palestinians, the Irish were fighting the Brits because they were opposing a douche-bag government while the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis just out of shear hatred wth severe disregard of the consequences.

Just call it what it is a conflict betweeen two groups where one is winning quite handily and aquiring concessions from the other. Stop calling the Isrealis victims, two men get in a bar fight over a spilled drink and one gets the spit beat out of him, I don't call the guy winning a victim, not when the guy on the ground is now missing half his teeth and suffers two broken legs. the guy on the ground may be an idiot but the demonic characterization ends there.

The Israeli-Palestinian Conflicts is way more complex than you think. By oversimplifying that in such a proportion would be like saying you can fit an octagon into a circle because it is more rounder than the square.

Don;t get me wrong, killing civilians is wrong, and sick, but if you use that logic you will find that bombings and mortar attacks ect have killed far more noncombatants on the palestinian side than the other. If you don't care because Isreal is our ally and might as well support our ally no matter what they do, well then you're an imperialist supporter of military aggresion and next time a hitler arises go join the fight for the fatherland, otherwise you should care about this stuff and the massive dissinformation campaign to missinform an electorate about something they have strong influence over.

Just from that entire statement is making me think of why I should even bother in arguing with you.

Of course the real reason we support isreal so strongly is because they can be our surragates in the region to carry out attacks throughout the region and give us justification to pressure middle eastern countries with direct military and economic threat to ensure compliance to our economic interests, as well as it being a huge military base for the US. (Isreal has recieved 1/2 of all US "aid"(mostly military) given to foreign nations since it's founding, quite alot for 1 country, read the writing on the wall, it's clearly written and easy to read.)

I will proudly admit that we give military aid to Israel for it to defend itself. The thing is if Israel really want to be a Imperialist nation that you are accusing of being, then why hasn't taken over half of the Middle East already? The way I see it, it might be an improvement for the Middle East.

The reason the Middle Easts despises Israel is because Israel is attacking them where it hurts the most; their oil money by investing in the innovative technology of alternative fuels such as solar panels and energy efficiency.

The truth is that at this point many Palestinians would like to see Isreal wiped off the map, same as I do in my feelings toward Osama (rediculous the haven't captured that prick) To me the right thing is peace and aquisition of territory through agreement and cooperation, exchange of goods labor ect, not through military force, death and the gamut of bullying techniques.

That is what Israel is trying to do for the last 60 years.

[JonH2O]

All I know is the 5 random Israel kids that speak english in MMORPGS really like Hillary Clinton and John Mccain.....I wonder why?

[XaosLegend]

Criticizing the Israeli Government is one thing but when people "criticize" Israel by demanding that all of the Jews into eviction including the ones in America for "conspiring" with Israel would be a major factor of why the "criticizers" are being called Anti-Semitic.

I would never say anything about expelling them, I just want to violence and the economic oppression to stop, to have both sides treat each other justly from here on out. What I actually think needs to happen in a one state solution with a secular government, strong civil rights, democracy and an end to the bigoted practices that go on inside of Isreal and inside of Palestine.

The thing about that is the fact the Zionist movement had actually bought the land (which was practically a neglected wasteland at the time) prior to WWI. However, the Ottomans got so paranoid that they forced Arabs into Former Palestine to make it so that the Arabs had more demographic power over the Jews.

It was after World War I where the Ottoman Empire came to its inevitable end of being shattered. During the process of Britain and France carving of what was left the Islamic Empire, Britain passed the Balfour Declaration which approved the creation of the Jewish State, thus allowing Jewish immigration. But the commitment to the Balfour Declaration lasted so long. The Jewish Community went as far as calling Britain a traitor when British Troops forced fleeing Jewish Immigrants back to the clutches of Nazi Germany. In short, this is at the responsibility of Britain, not the Zionist.

Whoever's reponsibility it is each party involved must act with decency and morality, that is the major issue.

It is strange that Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians for the matter can move and live freely around Israel. The reasons of why some Palestinians are in secured locations like Gaza is because it is those places that have most radical extremist such as the Hamas. There are hardly similarities between the Irish and Palestinians, the Irish were fighting the Brits because they were opposing a douche-bag government while the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis just out of shear hatred wth severe disregard of the consequences.

"just out of shear hatred" Right, of course they are, it's all just shear hatred and if palestinians weren't all violent evil people naturally than everyone could just get along in harmony and love, it's those farm raiding, white settler murdering injuns that drink the blood of the rightous in demonic ritual that are the problem, the Isrealis are acting generally how they should and are not themselves guilty of wrongdoing. Give me a break.

The Israeli-Palestinian Conflicts is way more complex than you think. By oversimplifying that in such a proportion would be like saying you can fit an octagon into a circle because it is more rounder than the square.

It's obviously complex, but you seem to mean the kind of complexity that allows Bible literalists to warp science to prove their creation theories. "Well you see since the universe was created six thousand years ago that means initially light moved faster than it does now, because God wanted it so, and it has slowed down exponentially to reach us here on earth to see the stars in the heavens millions of light years away, of course God stopped it from slowing down further in 1983 after I did my calculations that proved teh creation theory was true." You look for a way to see it as something other than what it is because if it were the other way around with jews losing so one-sidedly you'd be just as angry as I am about human beings dieing for the sake of cultural differences, greed, and western military tactical manuevering.

Just from that entire statement is making me think of why I should even bother in arguing with you.

Why because I don't make the assumptions that you do? The assumptions that The Isreali government does what it has to do, whereas the palistinians are only doing what they want to do? That only when its a car bomb, a human bomb, fits into your version of a terrorist attack is it murder. Firing mortar shells indescriminately into Palaestine that results in huge losses of life is also murder. Killing a dozen innocent bystanders to get one target is murder, sanctioning a country economically so that they starve to death and have a huge noncombat mortality rate they wouldn't have otherwise is murder.

I will proudly admit that we give military aid to Israel for it to defend itself. The thing is if Israel really want to be a Imperialist nation that you are accusing of being, then why hasn't taken over half of the Middle East already? The way I see it, it might be an improvement for the Middle East.

Isreal isn't itself as Imperialist as it's masters in the US are, and new imperialism isn't done so much by taking over a countrie's territory, it's done in the insidious manner of economic domination. Take a look at south america and africa's natural resource rights, and who owns them. Isreal also wasn't in a convenient place in history to move as quickly as previous expansionist governments did in taking over terrotpries. After WW2 the world had a distaste for conquerers, and so one had to be extra careful and take land only in reaction to a situation that could bejustified. The walls of Isreal and it's military occupation continue to expand into Palestine on justification of protecting Isreali settlers there, until over time they absorb another area and another, and occupy their neighbor militarily always being able to say it's just to protect it's citizens, and constantly new settlers go out and take up residence in palestine, and this is all that is needed to slowly take all the land, or all the best parts at least, where there are natural resources, and good farmland.

So if it would be an improvement it justifies military aggresion and stealing of another nation's property and resources? By that logic if I like my country best I should support all wars of aggression it carries out because our enemies will be better off inside the empire anyway.

The reason the Middle Easts despises Israel is because Israel is attacking them where it hurts the most; their oil money by investing in the innovative technology of alternative fuels such as solar panels and energy efficiency.

I don't think this is the reason at all. Alternative energy is being worked on all over the world not just in Isreal, of course countries in the middle east have many different reasons for disliking Isreal each it's own and coplex, as well as nations that favor them or are nuetral like turkey or egypt.

That is what Israel is trying to do for the last 60 years.

No it hasn't, some of it has been obviously i the natural course of the ecosystem of nations, but you clearly refuse to look from the other side's perspective for your personal psychologically socialized reasons. There are bad actors on both sides, but it's the Isrealis that have the upper hand and are more educated and in a first world economy, they should be more civilized that the other side, instead they hide behind the tactics of first world nations that kill far more than pathetic third world tactics and act as aggressor even as they shout their martyrhood.

[ForkRobotik]

Israel isn't democratic, otherwise they would have worked towards a 1 state solution. But they don't want that...why? cuz they hate everyone.

[Oblivia]

At 10/12/08 01:39 AM, ForkRobotik wrote: Israel isn't democratic, otherwise they would have worked towards a 1 state solution. But they don't want that...why? cuz they hate everyone.

Isn't democracy the reason why there is the call for a two state solution?