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At 9/23/08 11:11 PM, pepocho wrote: yes exactly why we need religion it gives us secruity...non believer jsut let us believe what we want to believe if we did not believe many of us who do whatever we to societ BECAUSE supposebly there's no afterlfie so might as well kill ppl drink a couple of beers and do drugs....religion makes us stay in line and gives us happiness knowing that our generouisty will pay off when we die....

Bad argument. What keeps atheists in line then? There's no pay off upon death... guess we're all blood thirsty drug addicts.

At 9/23/08 11:11 PM, pepocho wrote: yes exactly why we need religion it gives us secruity...non believer jsut let us believe what we want to believe if we did not believe many of us who do whatever we to societ BECAUSE supposebly there's no afterlfie so might as well kill ppl drink a couple of beers and do drugs....religion makes us stay in line and gives us happiness knowing that our generouisty will pay off when we die....

You're downplaying the role of social pressures and biology for human behavior.

You're also downplaying the ability of these people to hold grudges; they're still mad about the Crusades (although I'm pretty sure not one of em actually experienced any suffering as a result).

On the topic of the thread,

If we look at religion as a type of organized philosophical idea that means to answer the Big Questions, except that all answers are already present or else evaded, and the entire system is required to remain as-is, then this means that it prevents many individuals from openly proposing alternate ideas, or even slight variations, and the exchange of thought that could lead to meaningful enlightenment is prevented.

So no, we don't need it. It isn't even beneficial. It's just philosophy without the freedom of thought. Philosophy takes the place of religion in most Atheists' lives, and there is no reason that everyone in the world shouldn't adopt this less-corrupted way of thinking.

At 9/23/08 10:19 PM, Imperator wrote:

I take it you don't want to talk about the social institution

YYYYYEP

At 9/23/08 11:39 PM, BetaOrionis wrote:

So no, we don't need it. It isn't even beneficial.

Religion can help you, but it could be substituted.
Like "man this bowl of rice saved my life, I was starving!, rice is necessary for all life!"
Welcome to the wonderful crutch of religion.

At 9/23/08 11:46 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 9/23/08 10:19 PM, Imperator wrote:

I take it you don't want to talk about the social institution

YYYYYEP

At 9/23/08 11:39 PM, BetaOrionis wrote:

So no, we don't need it. It isn't even beneficial.

Religion can help you, but it could be substituted.
Like "man this bowl of rice saved my life, I was starving!, rice is necessary for all life!"

Yes, religion is a plain bowl of rice, but why would anyone settle for it when they can just as easily have the whole take-out menu, AND an ice cold beer? They must not want to spend extra time thinking, there's no other logical explanation, is there?

(in advance i didn't take or have the time to read all 4 pages of the thread)
As the thread-starter said, It's fucking harmful... think about it.
Religeons pressure you to join saying you will be saved, but when you enter that church (as i have a couple times) all you do is sing praise songs, donate money, and read parts of the bible! Singing praise songs has barely done anything to show 1 single sign of God. Does anyone really know what happens to the money donated anyways? And reading parts of the bible...
Most of the bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, they say that it's a sin to hurt someone, but Jesus said "let he who is without win throw the first stone"
Muslims, they surely have a book that would give them morals, values and ethics (IN ADVANCE I DON'T KNOW MUCH OF THE MUSLIM CULTURE) But from stories i hear from iraq and afghanistan, they hit their wives and make them cover their faces. They go on pilgrimages where a quarter of the people going on the pilgramage die.
Jewish people, have the same baseline as christianity.
Some baptists (if i'm not mistaken that is a type of religion) believe that it's a sin to go enjoy yourself outside.
and almost ALL of them discriminate women.

At 9/23/08 11:39 PM, BetaOrionis wrote: On the topic of the thread,

If we look at religion as a type of organized philosophical idea that means to answer the Big Questions, except that all answers are already present or else evaded, and the entire system is required to remain as-is, then this means that it prevents many individuals from openly proposing alternate ideas, or even slight variations, and the exchange of thought that could lead to meaningful enlightenment is prevented.

So no, we don't need it. It isn't even beneficial. It's just philosophy without the freedom of thought. Philosophy takes the place of religion in most Atheists' lives, and there is no reason that everyone in the world shouldn't adopt this less-corrupted way of thinking.

Very good; philosophy is completely free of predetermined rules. It is freedom in discovering the deeper world around without being chained to one particular book. Religion is perhaps easier for some people, but it is still false, and it is the opposite of freedom. Freedom of religion is freedom to not be free.

At 9/23/08 11:57 PM, Pure-Metal-UTA wrote: (in advance i didn't take or have the time to read all 4 pages of the thread)
As the thread-starter said, It's fucking harmful... think about it.
Religeons pressure you to join saying you will be saved, but when you enter that church (as i have a couple times) all you do is sing praise songs, donate money, and read parts of the bible! Singing praise songs has barely done anything to show 1 single sign of God. Does anyone really know what happens to the money donated anyways? And reading parts of the bible...
Most of the bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, they say that it's a sin to hurt someone, but Jesus said "let he who is without win throw the first stone"
Muslims, they surely have a book that would give them morals, values and ethics (IN ADVANCE I DON'T KNOW MUCH OF THE MUSLIM CULTURE) But from stories i hear from iraq and afghanistan, they hit their wives and make them cover their faces. They go on pilgrimages where a quarter of the people going on the pilgramage die.
Jewish people, have the same baseline as christianity.
Some baptists (if i'm not mistaken that is a type of religion) believe that it's a sin to go enjoy yourself outside.
and almost ALL of them discriminate women.

I don't know whether I should agree with everything you've said, but I don't need to. Of all the reasons we might think of to turn to religion, moral and ethics should be the last. That would mean going back thousands of years and throwing aways all social and cultural progress achieved since the birth of Christ. Obviously that would be stupid.

One day we wont. Sadly we still have cavemen who think the sun is a god.

At 9/24/08 08:22 AM, HogWashSoup wrote: One day we wont. Sadly we still have cavemen who think the sun is a god.

;;;;
And why not?
If you need actual proof of something that gives you life.
That if it wasn't there you would die & or would never have lived.
The Sun is a good choice.
If your going to be concerned about something that can & does effect you, me & everyone & everything alive on this planet...the Sun is a better choice than some madeup religious observences . PLUS if you pray to the Sun you'll get just as much response from the Sun as your getting from your particular 'God' anyway. With an added bonus at least with the Sun, you get to see him, in the Day time, if its not too cloudy :)

That's why most of the gods in the past derive from the sun. Think about it.
Why was jesus born on December 25th of a virgin where 3 kings followed?
Orions belt apparently is known as the 3 kings
The star contallation Virgo is known as House of Bread which is translated to Bethlehem.
God's sun was changed to God's son to represent Jesus christ when the sun started to move back up when they thought the sun was dying. It rose back up and saved them.

At 9/24/08 08:41 PM, Pure-Metal-UTA wrote: That's why most of the gods in the past derive from the sun. Think about it.
Why was jesus born on December 25th of a virgin where 3 kings followed?
Orions belt apparently is known as the 3 kings
The star contallation Virgo is known as House of Bread which is translated to Bethlehem.
God's sun was changed to God's son to represent Jesus christ when the sun started to move back up when they thought the sun was dying. It rose back up and saved them.

This is such concentrated bullshit I almost had a stroke reading it. Christmas is on December 25 because there was already a widely celebrated Roman holiday then, and the son/sun thing is purely an English linguistic coincidence.

What one person needs is entirely up to them as an individual, and how they interpret and deal with reality.

Needless to say, this is obviously different for everyone, but there are still recognizable patterns.

So, likeminds group together.

Minds that think, "we should do some needlessly disciplinary worship of everything around us, and give that a name to boot." will obviously be more likely to form a definable institution more often than those who don't think like that.

In my opinion religion is a lie created by humans many years ago when science was unable to explain the universe, and people needed something, ANYTHING, to fill that void of information. So they created religion. Now that science is explaining the universe we live in, and the void of information once plugged by religion can be truly filled by science, we have no real need of it.

And as for the morals, society upholds the important rules such as do not kill etc. so now all that religion does that society doesn't is promote the message of discrimination and cruelty. Which begs the question, why hasn't religion been abandoned yet? I believe for two reasons.

1. Anyone who decides that they are atheist and don't believe in religion stir up huge controversy, and many are afraid to stand against religion because of the social consequences.

2. People fear the idea of not having a purpose, and just being another person who will live for around 100 years then die and never come back. I think most people do, even atheists, but some people need religion to soothe these worries. As long as they convince themselves God is real, then they can rest in peace.

Of course there are many other intricate reasons, but I expect that these are the main two. I'm having this discussion with another guy in the general forum in a thread called "Who created Evolution" or something like that.

At 9/26/08 04:26 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: What one person needs is entirely up to them as an individual

No. You don't choose what you need, the entire premise behind a "need" is that you can't choose to need it.

You can't choose to have the need to eat. If you're going to say religion is a need, then you can't imply that you can choose to need it and some other people can choose to not need it, that's retarded.

religion isn't a virtue, though people use it to cope with life.

At 9/24/08 08:52 PM, Menelaus wrote: This is such concentrated bullshit I almost had a stroke reading it. Christmas is on December 25 because there was already a widely celebrated Roman holiday then, and the son/sun thing is purely an English linguistic coincidence.

Yes the son/sun thing was engligh linguistic coincidence.
But really the reason why December 25th was widely celebrated among the ancient Roman culture is because it was believed that the sun was going to die and then it came back like a birth AGES before Ancient roman culture even happened

At 9/26/08 06:35 PM, Pure-Metal-UTA wrote:

At 9/24/08 08:52 PM, Menelaus wrote: This is such concentrated bullshit I almost had a stroke reading it. Christmas is on December 25 because there was already a widely celebrated Roman holiday then, and the son/sun thing is purely an English linguistic coincidence.

Yes the son/sun thing was engligh linguistic coincidence.
But really the reason why December 25th was widely celebrated among the ancient Roman culture is because it was believed that the sun was going to die and then it came back like a birth AGES before Ancient roman culture even happened

Christianity was practiced for quite awhile before December 25 was repurposed. Since they weren't celebrating anything resembling Christmas for the first several hundred years of Christianity, it wouldn't make much sense to think that Jesus was made up to fit the holiday, now would it?

Did you get this from Zeitgeist?

At 9/26/08 08:18 PM, Menelaus wrote: Did you get this from Zeitgeist?

Most of it, yes.
But you would think it made sense since is was astrological. But really i guess i would need more sources on the astrology.
There we go
Sun's Position around December 25th and Orion's Belt
Virgo the constallation. Note that the times virgo is at the sun is in the WESTERN HEMISPHERE

At 9/19/08 07:43 AM, Diederick wrote: - - ATTENTION! THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD! - -

You had me at 'THIS' :3

The existence of God is unprovable, same as His non-existence is; all we have is probability, in which I deem God quite unlikely and therefore choose a more enlightened path of life. But these are sidetracks to the real point of this thread, after all, many of that endless line of religious debate have gone before this. The question is: "Do we really need religion?"

Religion is there for two reasons in my world. For those with faith that there is something past this life, that there is a greater being looking out for our general well being. That there is a peaceful bliss that can be achieved by good morals. Which brings me to the second point, morals/arguments. There are those we know as sudoChristians, which are usually intense believers in Gods morals. That they take every line of the bible as a strict code that must be followed. These are the people that oppose abortion and gay marriage. Religion is needed.

Some people are convinced, by whatever source they believe is valid, that mankind needs religion for moral and ethical guidance. Obviously this is one of the most stupid arguments to throw on the side of religion. First of all, moral and ethics are different in every culture; so which is right and which is wrong is hard to determine - or is it? Fortunately, all social animals, among which we may count ourselves, have Altruism. It is the natural feeling for ethics, for what is right and what is wrong and to discriminate the two. Secondly, religious moral and ethical values are not of this time, well, they shouldn't be. Their backwardness to homosexuality, women, stuff like that; should be a well enough indicator for people to ban such bad information from their intel. But we don't believe everything the Bible says anymore, do we now? We decided the Bible wasn't literally intending for us to stone our disobedient children, or kill sexually abused animals. But what made us decide what information to decry as figurative, and what as literal? Doesn't that lead back to a naturally present capability for discriminating right from wrong?

Doesn't that lead back to a naturally present capability for discriminating right from wrong? Well in a way it does. But as you think about what you said, the bible is there to tell us what is right and wrong based off one mans thoughts(or more). The bible in my opinion is to tell us that there is something waiting for us after this life. And to merely give us a general direction of what is right and wrong. That god has something planned for us if we keep to his general code that he gave us. I find the bible to be a lot like a map. It can only tell you the direction of what way to go, it can not truly guide you there, it is your interpretations that guide you there. I feel that I'm repeating my self.

Religion has some (superficial) benefits. It supposedly gives meaning and purpose to live, and it wouldn't matter whether it is all true or not. Sure, some people will have become dependant on religion, because it offers a very simple explanation for everything, well, "simple" for who just believes everything the Bible says. It actually only makes a small problem much bigger when we read Genesis, for example. It seems impossible for Christians to accept that the universe just happened by "luck" which is the word they value equal to "logic" and which latter I would choose to describe life. It isn't luck which created the universe, mankind, or everything you can see; after all, what is luck anyway? If God created the universe wouldn't that make us just as lucky to be alive? Couldn't God just have decided not create the world? But God makes the question only harder to answer, doesn't He? Because if God created the universe and everything in it, then where the *bleep* did God come from? Nothing can come from nothing is a popular argument on the Christian side, but then God must have been eternal? If God can be eternal, then why can't the universe have been? Life has happened, and we know for a fact that it was not eternal. We (by "we" I mean the enlightened world) don't know how life happened, but we know it did, after all, here we are pondering about it. All we can do is assume, using logic and probability. The benefits of religion are indeed superficial, it offers a fairytale for the lesser of heart who think life is empty without God. Perhaps Existentialism should be a more valued subject in public schools. We live because we do, all we can do is make the best of it while we're here. It's a big leap from God's chosen to a mere animal species, but can you really live with the lie you've been convincing yourself of as being true? We stopped wishing we were Superman or Wonderwoman at the age of ten, then why is this fantasy so persistent?

As a Christian I strongly believe that god exists, or some greater being that resembles a god like figure exists. But as a 'ponder' believe in evolution, and that the universe was created by some insane chemical reaction. But I have to wonder, something must be have pushed the chemical reaction to happen. As we know the universe is 13 billion years old(or something like that), and that before those 13 billion years the extremely compact heat must have been created, or triggered by some greater being for a purpose, this purpose we do not know.

But to truly answer your last question, Why is this fantasy so persistent? You must very well know that the bible is one of the best works of literature ever created. This book has been here for over 2000 years. This book has inspired millions, if not billions into faith. Such a strong faith that they risk their lives protecting this faith. This is such as how others are more patriotic then others to there own country, there are those who are more religious to there own religion then others. We simply call these people Atheists. Atheists may not promote there faith to god, but god or faith of him finds his way into there hearts, and makes them wonder if god does exist and their in fact wrong.

At 9/19/08 07:43 AM, Diederick wrote: Do we really need this absurd and monstrous fairytale?

That's like saying "Do we really need to be different?"

Religion is just a set of beliefs and morals. The problem is not nor has it ever been religion, because the majority of the religions of the world advocate the Golden Rule (Do unto others as they would do unto you). Rather, the problem is people distorting their religion and pushing their beliefs on others. This problem comes from people believing in "My way or the highway", and then distorting the advocation of preaching this to others.

I believe that religion is necessary because diversity is necessary. However, "My way or the highway" is definitely a primitive view, especially in religion. We need to get over these things and overcome such beliefs, and religious violence will be non-existent. For example, when has a high-ranking, authentic Buddhist (such as Gautama Buddha) killed or advocated the killing a non-Buddhist? Why has this not happened? Simple - because Buddhism believes in "84,000 paths", to quote Gautama Buddha himself. So to overcome religious violence, the only answer is tolerance. That's actually the way to overcome 90% of all violence in the world.

At 9/27/08 10:53 AM, Achilles2 wrote: Rather, the problem is people distorting their religion and pushing their beliefs on others.

I suggest you actually read up on religion.

So to overcome religious violence, the only answer is tolerance. That's actually the way to overcome 90% of all violence in the world.

Well FYI, muslims want to convert EVERY LAST PERSON ON EARTH. They want to dominate the planet, that is their goal. Every time a country lets in some "moderate" islamists, they're bringing the world a little closer to the dark ages.

Fuck em, they can stay in their shit countries ruled by fear, greed and ignorance. If you're stupid enough to preach tolerance of these barbarians, then you can go join them.

At 9/27/08 11:25 AM, poxpower wrote: I suggest you actually read up on religion.

Which religion? Not all religions believe in violence, especially not Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Baha'ism, and Sikhism which together make up about 53.5% of people in the world (as according to this chart).

In fact, the only major religion that can be argued to advocate violence in it's highest authority (whether it be a book or teacher) is Islam.

Fuck em, they can stay in their shit countries ruled by fear, greed and ignorance. If you're stupid enough to preach tolerance of these barbarians, then you can go join them.

Islam is one religion. Why should every religion be judged because of one?

At 9/27/08 11:25 AM, poxpower wrote: Well FYI, muslims want to convert EVERY LAST PERSON ON EARTH. They want to dominate the planet, that is their goal. Every time a country lets in some "moderate" islamists, they're bringing the world a little closer to the dark ages.

Well so does Christianity and every other religion ever. EVery religion has the extremists in it that want to convert every religious preson in their world to their religion.

Fuck em, they can stay in their shit countries ruled by fear, greed and ignorance. If you're stupid enough to preach tolerance of these barbarians, then you can go join them.

You have never even met a muslim have you and you believe that Muslims are the evil incarnate. Not all religious people are evil barbarians.

At 9/27/08 11:40 AM, Achilles2 wrote:

Which religion? Not all religions believe in violence, especially not Buddhism,

Isn't China Buddhist? Well look at their history to see just how non-violent that made them.

Christianity, Judaism,

Holy shit, you never read the bible, have you? Look at the old testament to see just how peaceful Judaism is. And you don't need me to tell you Christians aren't the most peaceful people around.

Hinduism,

Yeah nothing wrong with a religion that promotes the negligence and violence towards lower castes. It's basically a monarchy ingrained right into their religion. And they're not without their own plethora of horrible rituals.

Baha'ism,

I don't even care to know what that is.

and Sikhism

I don't know enough about them, but they don't look big on hygiene.

Islam is one religion. Why should every religion be judged because of one?

You're trying to make the case that if a religion doesn't ONLY preach tons of violence, then suddenly it's more valid than others.

No, sorry, they're all completely retarded. The only difference between societies with a lot of religion and not a lot of religion is...
oh, wait, high salaries, advanced medicine, technological advances, long lives, low diseases, high education, peace...

Right oops I guess religion is indispensable if you want to keep living in the middle ages.

At 9/27/08 12:09 PM, aninjaman wrote:

Not all religious people are evil barbarians.

Any person who uses "not all..." in a religious argument is automatically worthy of being ignored.

HEY NOT ALL BLABLABLALBAL

How can a national entity "believe in x-religion" and still have the needs of it's people in mind?

Looking at China as Buddhist is like looking at Stalin as atheist, only with the twist that China has deep-seated atheistic roots that merely transfix religion into a subjugative force... a means to an end.

But yeah, some people need religion to maintain sanity. Crazy people come from every walk of life, but a weekly reminder that the man behind the curtain cares for you combined with the very human need for companionship and solidarity certainly validates the concept of religion.

What happens if you place all your faith into written works, then they're all destroyed?

At 9/27/08 01:03 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Looking at China as Buddhist

The thing is that every religious person claims to be of X faith and there is really no way to persuade them that they aren't or check what they REALLY believe.
Look at Christians. I don't think there's a single real christian as written in the bible. They don't exist, yet there's hundreds of millions of people who say they're Christian based on some arbitrary criteria.

So what do we do? Do we say "ok well everyone who is bad isn't a real christian and everyone who is good is a real christian, so christianity is good" or do we say "everyone who claims to be a christian is a christian and you guys get all the blame".
Or do we say "there's no christians". They all sound like cheating.

So I take them as a whole and too bad if that offends like half of them because they don't agree with the other half. It was up to them to define their religion properly in the first place.

Atheism is easy.
Believe in God? No? You're atheist. That's it.

But yeah, some people need religion to maintain sanity.

How can you possibly prove that? Actually PROVE that?

What happens if you place all your faith into written works, then they're all destroyed?

Nothing?

At 9/27/08 01:03 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: How can a national entity "believe in x-religion" and still have the needs of it's people in mind?

Looking at China as Buddhist is like looking at Stalin as atheist, only with the twist that China has deep-seated atheistic roots that merely transfix religion into a subjugative force... a means to an end.

But yeah, some people need religion to maintain sanity. Crazy people come from every walk of life, but a weekly reminder that the man behind the curtain cares for you combined with the very human need for companionship and solidarity certainly validates the concept of religion.

What happens if you place all your faith into written works, then they're all destroyed?

Then you'll know you have been fooling yourself into a pathetic fairytale which was obstructive, misleading and potentially dangerous. No one needs religion, not even crazy people. It's just because it is available, much like how marijuana is available and no one really needs it; though they make you believe they do. Companionship and solidarity are usually found in other beings; at least in social animal species like ours; imaginary friends only exist in autistic youths and perhaps an adult loony here or there.

At 9/27/08 03:44 AM, Healthy wrote: Religion is there for two reasons in my world. For those with faith that there is something past this life, that there is a greater being looking out for our general well being. That there is a peaceful bliss that can be achieved by good morals. Which brings me to the second point, morals/arguments. There are those we know as sudoChristians, which are usually intense believers in Gods morals. That they take every line of the bible as a strict code that must be followed. These are the people that oppose abortion and gay marriage. Religion is needed.

And what arguments did you just throw up to support that last conclusion?

:Well in a way it does. But as you think about what you said, the bible is there to tell us what is right and wrong based off one mans thoughts(or more). The bible in my opinion is to tell us that there is something waiting for us after this life. And to merely give us a general direction of what is right and wrong. That god has something planned for us if we keep to his general code that he gave us. I find the bible to be a lot like a map. It can only tell you the direction of what way to go, it can not truly guide you there, it is your interpretations that guide you there. I feel that I'm repeating my self.
I find the Bible a lot like a messy book of fiction with contradictions and a most disgusting supernatural being at the steering wheel.

As a Christian I strongly believe that god exists, or some greater being that resembles a god like figure exists. But as a 'ponder' believe in evolution, and that the universe was created by some insane chemical reaction. But I have to wonder, something must be have pushed the chemical reaction to happen. As we know the universe is 13 billion years old(or something like that), and that before those 13 billion years the extremely compact heat must have been created, or triggered by some greater being for a purpose, this purpose we do not know.

Who said the universe was created by a chemical reaction? In fact: who said the universe was created at all? And from what incredible source did you hear the universe is 13 billion years old? We don't know these things for a fact.

But to truly answer your last question, Why is this fantasy so persistent? You must very well know that the bible is one of the best works of literature ever created. This book has been here for over 2000 years. This book has inspired millions, if not billions into faith.

And what exactly is the positive side of that?

:Such a strong faith that they risk their lives protecting this faith. This is such as how others are more patriotic then others to there own country, there are those who are more religious to there own religion then others. We simply call these people Atheists. Atheists may not promote there faith to god, but god or faith of him finds his way into there hearts, and makes them wonder if god does exist and their in fact wrong.
This is nonsense, I do not believe in God, I do not believe in Creation, I do not believe your book of fiction is not a book fiction. Your beliefs cannot justify themselves by themselves, in other words: you cannot found arguments based on faith, if you are defending that very faith.

At 9/27/08 03:44 AM, Healthy wrote:
Religion is there for two reasons in my world. For those with faith that there is something past this life, that there is a greater being looking out for our general well being. That there is a peaceful bliss that can be achieved by good morals. Which brings me to the second point, morals/arguments. There are those we know as sudoChristians, which are usually intense believers in Gods morals. That they take every line of the bible as a strict code that must be followed. These are the people that oppose abortion and gay marriage. Religion is needed.

You believe that your morals are the only "good morals" just because one book says so. How very modest of you. Yours morals are crap. If I right a book that says abortion and gay marriage are great and to oppose them is evil, then by your logic, that is automatically correct and thus you must follow it. Religion is not needed, because it makes people do stupid things, like oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Doesn't that lead back to a naturally present capability for discriminating right from wrong? Well in a way it does. But as you think about what you said, the bible is there to tell us what is right and wrong based off one mans thoughts(or more). The bible in my opinion is to tell us that there is something waiting for us after this life. And to merely give us a general direction of what is right and wrong. That god has something planned for us if we keep to his general code that he gave us. I find the bible to be a lot like a map. It can only tell you the direction of what way to go, it can not truly guide you there, it is your interpretations that guide you there. I feel that I'm repeating my self.

And is there any logical or factual evidence to suggest this? No of course not. You just blindly follow it because it's written in one book, that teaches a bullshit system of morals are are unnessicary, intolerant, and close-minded. If the bible is a map, it's a really out-dated one, where all the roads and directions have changed, and you should throw it away and get a new one.

As a Christian I strongly believe that god exists, or some greater being that resembles a god like figure exists. But as a 'ponder' believe in evolution, and that the universe was created by some insane chemical reaction. But I have to wonder, something must be have pushed the chemical reaction to happen. As we know the universe is 13 billion years old(or something like that), and that before those 13 billion years the extremely compact heat must have been created, or triggered by some greater being for a purpose, this purpose we do not know.

Why? You say you believe in God, but you have yet to explain any real reason why. And no, something doesn't have to have pushed that chemical reaction. It's as simple as that. Your arguement is invalid due to that simple fact, why is it so hard to comprehend?

But to truly answer your last question, Why is this fantasy so persistent? You must very well know that the bible is one of the best works of literature ever created. This book has been here for over 2000 years. This book has inspired millions, if not billions into faith. Such a strong faith that they risk their lives protecting this faith. This is such as how others are more patriotic then others to there own country, there are those who are more religious to there own religion then others. We simply call these people Atheists. Atheists may not promote there faith to god, but god or faith of him finds his way into there hearts, and makes them wonder if god does exist and their in fact wrong.

Really? An intolerant, violent, close-minded, terribly written, non-sensical steaming piece of bullshit is one of the best works of literature ever created? Man, authors must really suck at writing books if that's the best humanity can give us... The last part is a bullshit assumption. I used to be Christian. But when I got a higher education, I realized that God, the Bible, and religion are bullshit. I've never looked back. God or faith or any of that bullshit will never find it's way into my heart, or anyone logical's heart either. That's why so many people today are converting to atheism. It's one of the world's fastest growing "religions". And most of these converts realize that when they get a higher education and begin to understand the world for what it is, not what one book and thousands of years of repeating the same old lies says it is. Your arrogance is astounding. Because you believe it, it must seep into everyone's heart, right?

PS: I apologize to anyone reading who may find what I've said to be offending. Arrogance pisses me off, so I may have been a bit harsh.