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IT'S IF THEY MAKE OVER $250,000 A YEAR! NOT $40k, you FUCKIN RETARD

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At 9/18/08 05:34 AM, n64kid wrote: I do because he's a democrat and when he realizes how fucked up spending is, he will raise taxes.

Or he'll cut spending in other areas. Or he may just continue to run us into a deficit and keep borrowing money like every recent president except Clinton seems to be doing.

Fist off, that only proves my point that he is too scared to state his own specific plan or his own stance on virtually any controversial issue.

Uh what? Your "point" was that he was opposed to nuclear power and then changed his mind, which is clearly false.

Secondly, you linked to a blog with someone else's analysis of what Obama specifically said to prove he never said he is against it.

It's sourced by actual statements by Obama where he specifically said that he would not rule out nuclear energy. Pretty clear cut if you ask me.

Third, he has stated that he is against building nuclear power plants because "it's not change", "it creates waste", and "not what America needs" when I saw him at the Kohl Center in Madison. Straight from his mouth.

Hearsay. I'm not going to take your word for it I'm afraid.

Fourth, if Obama last year said he does not oppose it, yet doesn't state that he favors it, but then states he opposes it, then goes back to his original beating the bush on his stance, then yes, he FLIP-FLOPPED.

So where did Obama actually say this?

Fifth, I've heard him in other speeches mention that Nuclear is not the way to go, he is not a fan/proponent of nuclear. (etc)

Obviously not, but you tried to make it look like he was opposed to nuclear power when he never was. Obama isn't the largest fan of nuclear power, but he realizes that it would be foolish to rule it out entirely.

What do you make of that?

Linking to his current stance and one of his previous stances cannot refute what he said between those points. Maybe he blurted something out by mistake and no one cared because he was speaking at a College, but he still said it.

Maybe you misheard or misinterpreted him? Maybe you're right and he did blurt it out, but do you really expect anybody to believe you when you have absolutely no proof? Sorry, but I don't base my views on rumors and hearsay.

Thats insensitive to those living there.

Maybe, but it is a separate country from the US. I'm really much more concerned with our country right now.

Maybe we should talk about giving California and Texas back to Mexico, since it's a center piece.

There isn't an ongoing hostile conflict between the US and Mexico.

Do you know what he said? It was more than Jerusalem that he backtracked on.

Care to enlighten me?

He's all over the place with taxes.

Maybe, but he has never differed from the plan of cutting taxes for the middle and lower classes. That has been his plan since announcement. Now, you may be right that the specifics of how much will be charged to whom, but that doesn't give you a basis to say he'll completely flop and start raising taxes for everyone.

-2003 Born-Alive abortions
-2005 Stated he was not Pro-Choice
Since then, he's been in favor of abortion, so 2007 and today will fall in line with each other.

Back it up man. You have not backed a single thing you have said thus far. Though, here's an interesting tidbit from that link I provided you earlier

Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

* 2007: 100 percent
* 2006: 100 percent
* 2005: 100 percent

Yet you don't see Obama just as much a flip-flopper than McCain, moreso if you only count important policies.

I will accept Obama is a flip flopper when you can actually show that he is. As of now, you just look like the victim of right wing misrepresentation.

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At 9/18/08 05:56 PM, Musician wrote: I will accept Obama is a flip flopper when you can actually show that he is. As of now, you just look like the victim of right wing misrepresentation.

1. Obama on Public Financing

"If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in the presidential public financing system?" Obama: "Yes. I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests." (Sen. Barack Obama, "Presidential Candidate Questionnaire," Midwest Democracy Network.

He opted out of the system.

2. Obama on DC handguns.

"It looks to me that the D.C. handgun ban overshot the runway. That it went beyond constitutional limits." Bloomberg's "Taking Stock," 6/26/08.

Now:
"One other issue that's of great importance here in the district as well is gun control. You said in Idaho recently - I'm quoting here - 'I have no intention of taking away folks' guns,' but you support the D.C. handgun ban."
Obama: "Right."
Leon Harris and Sen. Barack Obama, Forum Sponsored By ABC And Politico.Com, Washington, DC, 2/12/08

3. He criticizes Bush's energy bill even though he voted for it.

4. Obama Campaign Pledged He Would Filibuster "Any Bill That Includes Retroactive Immunity For Telecommunications Companies." Instead he voted for the FISA bill.

5. Cuba Embargo
"I think it's time for us to end the embargo with Cuba." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, IL, 1/20/04)

"As president, I'll maintain the embargo it's an important inducement for change because we know that Castro's death will not guarantee freedom." (Beth Reinhard, The Miami Herald's "Naked Politics" Blog, 8/25/07)

6. "I am happy to have a debate with John McCain and George Bush about foreign policy. If John McCain wants to meet me anywhere, anytime, to have a debate about our respective policies in Iraq, Iran, the Middle East or around the world, that is a conversation I am happy to have. Because I believe that there is no separation between John McCain and George Bush when it comes to our Middle East policy and I think their policy has failed." (Barack Obama, Media Availability, Watertown, SD, 5/16/08)

There are a lot more I'm sure you can find for yourself. I know this website is bias but most of the stuff on it is backed up with references. Enjoy.

http://massdiscussion.blogspot.com/2008/
06/collection-of-obama-flip-flops.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25673270/
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/john-stephe nson/2008/07/03/more-obama-flip-flops-me dia-will-ignore
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/02/24/AR2008022402094.
html

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At 9/18/08 05:56 PM, Musician wrote:

At 9/18/08 05:34 AM, n64kid wrote: I do because he's a democrat and when he realizes how fucked up spending is, he will raise taxes.

Or he'll cut spending in other areas.

Something McCain wants to do, as well as stop new spending by vetoing all pork-barrel legislation.

Or he may just continue to run us into a deficit and keep borrowing money like every recent president except Clinton seems to be doing.

We never saw a surplus under Clinton. We have seen a projected surplus, assuming the tech bubble wouldn't burst, assuming Bin Laden didn't plan an attack, and assuming no further spending would take place.
1. NO surplus ever happened under Clinton
2. Because of faulty accounting practices of congress, SS and other spending aren't realized in the years they have been accrued.

He did "work" with a republican controlled congress, items were veteoed, and nothing got done
- it was my dream government.

If Obama didn't want UHC, government intervention into business, and run the federal budget like LBJ with the war on poverty, I would love the guy.

Uh what? Your "point" was that he was opposed to nuclear power and then changed his mind, which is clearly false.

I proved he said what he said in an above link, making it true that he had at one point stated he is not a proponent of nuclear power. Read my links in response to Rideo.

It's sourced by actual statements by Obama where he specifically said that he would not rule out nuclear energy. Pretty clear cut if you ask me.

If he said he would not rule it out in mid/late 2007, then says he is not a proponent of it late 2007/early 2008, then reverts back to him not ruling it out now, the link citing his earlier 2007 position doesn't prove that he never flip-flopped between then and now.

Hearsay. I'm not going to take your word for it I'm afraid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS8GZZq9U PE Watch his speech.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News /PressReleases/ae4cf305-0500-4eea-92de-2 c740ed2b15a.htm

"In December 2007, Barack Obama Said "I Am Not A Nuclear Energy Proponent". "I start off with the premise that nuclear energy is not optimal. I am not a nuclear energy proponent." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At Town Hall Event, Newton, IA, 12/30/07) "

Then he puts this ad out, and that's going to give you the idea that he isn't ruling nuclear off the table with such propaganda?

Obviously not, but you tried to make it look like he was opposed to nuclear power when he never was. Obama isn't the largest fan of nuclear power, but he realizes that it would be foolish to rule it out entirely.

Why is he against the cleanest, safest, most efficient source for energy that we have? Any real reason at all or does he just not like and that will do?

Maybe you misheard or misinterpreted him? Maybe you're right and he did blurt it out, but do you really expect anybody to believe you when you have absolutely no proof? Sorry, but I don't base my views on rumors and hearsay.

Now you have links =D

Maybe, but it is a separate country from the US. I'm really much more concerned with our country right now.

An expert on foreign policy sees how valuable keeping Israel close to the US is.

There isn't an ongoing hostile conflict between the US and Mexico.

Yet if there was, you'd think that any notion of returning land to Mexico would fly at all if the US was in such a situation?

Care to enlighten me?

Maybe in another thread, we're overdue for an anti-Israel thread here anyways.

Maybe, but he has never differed from the plan of cutting taxes for the middle and lower classes. That has been his plan since announcement. Now, you may be right that the specifics of how much will be charged to whom, but that doesn't give you a basis to say he'll completely flop and start raising taxes for everyone.

Although his tax cuts have remained the same, he has changed his stance numerous times on raising/lowering the capital gains tax as well as who is exepmt, who is not, and whether he wants to change it from a flat tax to a progressive system.

This is where he has been all over, which shows me he has not fully thought out the effects of any of his tax proposals.

Lol, (lack of) fairness and not revenue.
Read #3
http://www.ontheissues.org/Economic/Bara ck_Obama_Tax_Reform.htm
He seems to want it just because 50 people out of 300 million make a ridiculous amount.
Yet if he raises this tax, tax revenues seem to decrease, and if they didn't, the (40%?) of the 29 billion wouldn't even come close to offsetting the cost of UHC.

-2003 Born-Alive abortions
-2005 Stated he was not Pro-Choice
Since then, he's been in favor of abortion, so 2007 and today will fall in line with each other.

Back it up man. You have not backed a single thing you have said thus far. Though, here's an interesting tidbit from that link I provided you earlier

I'll admit I'm having trouble remembering where he gave that speech in 2005. Youtube search needs locations, not just the year. Links about his stance on born alive abortions are abundant and ready to be viewed by yourself.

Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

* 2007: 100 percent
* 2006: 100 percent
* 2005: 100 percent

By NARAL's standings.

I will accept Obama is a flip flopper when you can actually show that he is. As of now, you just look like the victim of right wing misrepresentation.

It's sad that you cvan't see it for yourself, yet you seemed to already admit that he's changed his views on taxes, which is what this thread is more or less about. I do have links to sites with flip flopping claims, so until you debunk them all, I think I'm done here.

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Obama is a Democrat. The last thing we want right now is a Republican in office for 4-8 Years! My vote's for Obama, and not McCain.

You did make a very good point.

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I'm voting for obama this election. i voted for G bush last two elections because i didnt like the dem's choices for office. he let me down, and he let this country down. we need somthing different or else our down ward slump will continue to be down ward. Its like a sinking ship. Either we stop bailing water, fix the leak and actually try to stop the problems, or we end up just continuing to bail out a piss poor situation that isnt going to change.

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i agree, but about the bush sr. thing, you cant fully blame the president for breaking the promises because it is hard to get the right information before hand without risking a national security issue

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Meh, Obama is a charlatan anyway.

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I have been reading this whole thread, and I was very impressed with n64kid with a lot of facts and opinions stated by him.

I would rather have McCain myself, but Palin kinda scares me now...