What evolution implies

[LazyDrunk]

Does the theory of evolution have any value? What problems has it been used to solve, and why should we be required to learn about it?

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

I'm thinking of manifest destiny, and any underlying clauses that might not be obvious to the glancing eye.

[SmilezRoyale]

You mean that

1) some people are born more affluent than others?
2) that infant mortality is a hallmark of all species of animals [to some degree or another] due to a failiure to survive in the natural setting
3) disease is disease, but allowing people to die from these diseases insures that the species itself remains immune and healthy.

And so on?

Yes, evolution implies all of those things. It's a scientific theory that our reasoning accepts but our subconscious morality does not.

[poxpower]

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: What problems has it been used to solve

It explains:

- why creatures appear in a certain order in fossil records
- how increasingly complex animals appeared on earth
- why diseases become more resistant to antibiotics, why insects become more resistant to insecticides and why weed become more resistant to pesticides.
- why we find some animals in some parts of the world where we don't find others
- where humans come from and where our brains and our intelligence comes from

without the use for any magic man

and why should we be required to learn about it?

Because it's the truth about the world and that's how it is. Why would you learn about anything in school? Why learn about geology, geography, astronomy, physics, math, history etc? 99% of that is going to be useless.

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

Example: we now know to treat diseases with many antibiotics to make sure that all the bacterias are killed because before we factored in the ability for them to adapt a resistance, we only used a single kind and that just made things like penicilin pretty much useless because all the diseases that it used to treat became resistant to it.

Also you can predict where you'll find certain fossils. That's pretty cool. You can search for the fossils you want to find in a specific strata based on it's characteristics, simply because evolution works.

and now commence the "in one ear, out the other" procedure

[Gunter45]

Seeing as how bacteria and virii evolve pretty damn quick, that whole medicine thing is pretty dependent on the idea that diseases change.

But that's not really all that big of a deal since God heals all affliction, right?

[LazyDrunk]

At 9/10/08 03:59 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: You mean that

1) some people are born more affluent than others?
2) that infant mortality is a hallmark of all species of animals [to some degree or another] due to a failiure to survive in the natural setting
3) disease is disease, but allowing people to die from these diseases insures that the species itself remains immune and healthy.

And so on?

Yeah, are those things all considered evolutionary traits, or does it need to be physiologically measurable to qualify as an evolutionary step?

Are all evolutionary steps created equal? Is it possible to devolve and that's the real reason why evolution is important... and if that's true what is the goal of evolution?

I'm thinking that evolutionary advancement should be viewed a certain way, but I'll refrain as of now.

Yes, evolution implies all of those things. It's a scientific theory that our reasoning accepts but our subconscious morality does not.

So which one wins out? Is winning out even possible when our favored traits like rationality and morality clash?

[Brick-top]

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Does the theory of evolution have any value? What problems has it been used to solve, and why should we be required to learn about it?

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

I'm thinking of manifest destiny, and any underlying clauses that might not be obvious to the glancing eye.

Evolutionary research is a unifying theory of biology. That includes medicine. Which we all know what that's for.

However you don't need a purpose to research something other than gaining knowledge.

[AapoJoki]

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

Here are some examples of how evolution has been used in the development of new technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex4O5z_ig 2g

This video is from 1987, I think.

[Gunter45]

At 9/10/08 04:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Are all evolutionary steps created equal? Is it possible to devolve and that's the real reason why evolution is important... and if that's true what is the goal of evolution?

...wow

There is no goal. There's no such thing as "devolution." Evolution is the study of genetic changes in life. If something is not an advantageous change for a lifeform, it's still evolution. That shit happens all the time. There are number of things about our makeup that isn't advantageous. Our backs are incredibly vulnerable. Just going about our daily lives is hell on our backs because it's not "well-designed" for walking upright.

Things just change. The changes that survive are passed on. It really isn't that complicated.

[LazyDrunk]

At 9/10/08 04:03 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: What problems has it been used to solve

it's the truth, without the use for any magic man

I can accept that.

and why should we be required to learn about it?

Because it's the truth about the world and that's how it is. Why would you learn about anything in school? Why learn about geology, geography, astronomy, physics, math, history etc? 99% of that is going to be useless.

I assume we learn about stuff in school to give us a feel of what the real world is actually like while offering choices and glimpses into possible futures working with the subjects studied. I understand that genetic research depends readily on evolutionary links and common combos to effectively study the effects of treatments. It seems a fairly specific notion, not as specific as studying the stars, but certainly more narrowly aimed than algebra or chemistry.

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

Example: we now know to treat diseases with many antibiotics to make sure that all the bacterias are killed because before we factored in the ability for them to adapt a resistance, we only used a single kind and that just made things like penicilin pretty much useless because all the diseases that it used to treat became resistant to it.

Are you saying we evolved our methodology to better treat evolved strains? I'm looking more for the human aspects of evolution, but the fact that we observe and learn from monitoring the natural evolution of less compex (and more complex) organisms means our evolution depends somewhat on the evolution of our natural environments, as well as our own social developments.

I think that has more to do with why evolution is taught, like how math is taught to ensure accuracy in applications or geography to enable prompt delivery or english to improve persuasive techniques, etc.. all things vital to a strong, survivable, society of people. Evolution could be taught not because it's important to know that life adapts or dies (though the how of how a species survives is always unique), but because it's vital to our survival to understand the operating code of life. It's kill or be killed, but no organism can survive without other organisms and expect to advance and develop into a form worth occupying.

I feel like I'm rambling.

Also you can predict where you'll find certain fossils. That's pretty cool. You can search for the fossils you want to find in a specific strata based on it's characteristics, simply because evolution works.

and now commence the "in one ear, out the other" procedure

Who cares if I could tell you a mastodon died in Montana 12,327 years ago when the last ice age receded. That's not pretty cool.

You can search for fossils anywhere, but that's not because evolution works, it's because stuff dies.

[LazyDrunk]

At 9/10/08 04:23 PM, Gunter45 wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Are all evolutionary steps created equal? Is it possible to devolve and that's the real reason why evolution is important... and if that's true what is the goal of evolution?

...wow

There is no goal.

Then why stay alive?

There's no such thing as "devolution."

"There is no cake." Got it.

Things just change. The changes that survive are passed on. It really isn't that complicated.

Should morality ever play a role in the study of evolution?

[LazyDrunk]

At 9/10/08 04:10 PM, Brick-top wrote: Evolutionary research is a unifying theory of biology. That includes medicine. Which we all know what that's for.

Yep, making life better :)

However you don't need a purpose to research something other than gaining knowledge.

You're right, but it does help to get funds though.

[Brick-top]

At 9/10/08 04:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:10 PM, Brick-top wrote: Evolutionary research is a unifying theory of biology. That includes medicine. Which we all know what that's for.

Yep, making life better :)

Was that sarcasm?

[poxpower]

At 9/10/08 04:32 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

I can accept that.

surprised is me

It seems a fairly specific notion, not as specific as studying the stars, but certainly more narrowly aimed than algebra or chemistry.

evolution is an extremely interesting for humans to know I would say. "where do we come from" is a question that we're extremely lucky to finally have the answer to.
It's also the foundation of biology, which is a big part of medicine and offers incredibly potent future technologies.

Are you saying we evolved our methodology to better treat evolved strains?

Yes, we now know how to prevent bacteria from evolving in ways we don't wish them to.
We've also been able to evolve bacteria who do things we want them to do.

The better we understand evolution, the more we can harness it's power for our own use.

it's important to know that life adapts or dies (though the how of how a species survives is always unique), but because it's vital to our survival to understand the operating code of life. It's kill or be killed, but no organism can survive without other organisms and expect to advance and develop into a form worth occupying.

that's not really anything to do with the truth of evolution itself.
We can merely teach it because it happens all the time. It's the all-encompassing force that explains diversity on earth. I think kids are very interested to know things about what happened to dinosaurs, why there's no more giant bugs, why there's different kinds of bears etc.
Where do bees come from? Did dinosaurs eat grass? Where do whales come from?

That's all things I wanted to know when I was a kid. I don't think evolution had to imply any sort of "YOU NEED TO ADAPT OR DIE" lessons for kids, or anyone. It's just a fascinating aspect of life that is worth knowing just for what it is and not for whatever you want to make it imply for human life.

You can search for fossils anywhere, but that's not because evolution works, it's because stuff dies.

They actually found interesting transitional fossils that way.
Missing links between amphibians and fish. They're always dying to find that kind of fossil and if evolution didn't work, then fossils would be randomly scattered and they could only hope to find them by chance ( though they wouldn't exist since evolution wouldn't exist...).
It's pretty cool.

Say you're looking for the ancestor to mice. Well you know exactly when you have mouse fossils, and you know exactly when you don't have any mammal fossils. So you can search the stratas in between and you'll find what you're looking for if it's still there.

[Gunter45]

At 9/10/08 04:35 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Then why stay alive?

Why stay alive when you go to heaven when you die if you're a Christian?

"There is no cake." Got it.

OH, IT'S THE POP REFERENCE PHRASE THE KIDS ARE SAYING.

It's the idea that evolution is just change, that's it. It's not a qualification on something being advantageous or not. If a creature living in Montana evolves to have a target painted on it's forehead, that's still evolution.

Should morality ever play a role in the study of evolution?

It should play as much a role in evolution as it does in physics.

The study of evolution is based on observation. What does morality have to do with it?

[stafffighter]

The main fear of evolution from most deniers is that it's not over. Whether this is a simple matter of egotistically beleiving your form to be the pinnicle of perfection given dominion over all other creatures or just fear of the unknown is case by case, but mainly the first one. We are highly motivated by beleiving we're in charge. This is also, and I'm not implieing any further connection of these issues, why many people don't beleive in aliens.
My point here is that understanding evolution doesn't only show where we've come from but where we're going. Having some roadmap to the future is useful for innumerable reasons.

[LazyDrunk]

At 9/10/08 04:55 PM, Gunter45 wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:35 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Then why stay alive?

Why stay alive when you go to heaven when you die if you're a Christian?

Dogs don't follow Christ. Rats follow Allah, but that's a different story. You're supposed to say, "the goal is to feel good, which means you gotta be alive and not being eaten."

BUT GUNTER, WHAT IF I BELIEVE HEAVEN IS ON EARTH, WHAT THEN?

Am I still a christian?

My world is falling apart..

woe..

"There is no cake." Got it.

OH, IT'S THE POP REFERENCE PHRASE THE KIDS ARE SAYING.

You can't prove the cake because it's not a cake, it's just a bunch of flour.

Same thing with devolving, or losing traits favorable to survival.

Did I mention science?

It's the idea that evolution is just change, that's it. It's not a qualification on something being advantageous or not.

Isn't currently being alive and having a reproductive herd a quantification (or qualification) for something being advantageous?

If a creature living in Montana evolves to have a target painted on it's forehead, that's still evolution.

I think I understand your whole point even better now. Evolution isn't something that can be measured until the species is extinct. Evolutionary traits signifying uniqueness are still evolutionary changes, even if those changes involve the loss of something. Like legs, spines, toxicity, hair, pigmentation.

Therefore, with the right fossil records a snake could evolve into not growing legs.

Or narwhales and their horn.

And unicorns, too.

Should morality ever play a role in the study of evolution?

It should play as much a role in evolution as it does in physics.

aka, none? The LHC should be evidence of that.

The study of evolution is based on observation. What does morality have to do with it?

Humans have a tendency of exhibiting learned behavior.

[AreYouSure]

At 9/10/08 04:53 PM, Brick-top wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:10 PM, Brick-top wrote: Evolutionary research is a unifying theory of biology. That includes medicine. Which we all know what that's for.

Yep, making life better :)

Was that sarcasm?

None at all.

And I agree with you staff.

[poxpower]

At 9/10/08 05:06 PM, stafffighter wrote: This is also, and I'm not implieing any further connection of these issues, why many people don't beleive in aliens.

I've never ever heard of that one.

[stafffighter]

At 9/10/08 05:19 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 9/10/08 05:06 PM, stafffighter wrote: This is also, and I'm not implieing any further connection of these issues, why many people don't beleive in aliens.

I've never ever heard of that one.

Well think of it this way. Which is more likely, figuring that in the grand vastness of existance we're the only species that's gotten this far or emotionally not wanting there to be other creatures out there higher than you?

[ReciprocalAnalogy]

At 9/10/08 04:35 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 9/10/08 04:23 PM, Gunter45 wrote: There is no goal.

Then why stay alive?

Semantic misappropriation. When Gunter45 said there was no goal, he likely meant no sentient intent or guided interest - to say that it is merely a mechanic - that there is no single ultimate goal.

It is a mechanic determined by many goals if you call it the goal of a negatively charged magnet to attract a positively charged magnet.

We personally choose to stay alive out of social pressures, instinct, fear, religious teachings, and/or moral imperatives. This does not mean that we should stay alive, but that we do, generally.

At 9/10/08 05:06 PM, stafffighter wrote: Whether this is a simple matter of egotistically beleiving your form to be the pinnicle of perfection given dominion over all other creatures or just fear of the unknown is case by case, but mainly the first one.

People who hold this stance have not only taken evolution out of context, but have taken it so out of context that it is no longer evolution they're talking about.

[Gunter45]

At 9/10/08 05:11 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Dogs don't follow Christ. Rats follow Allah, but that's a different story. You're supposed to say, "the goal is to feel good, which means you gotta be alive and not being eaten."

No I'm not, because that's stupid.

BUT GUNTER, WHAT IF I BELIEVE HEAVEN IS ON EARTH, WHAT THEN?

Am I still a christian?

My world is falling apart..

woe..

I don't care about what you, yourself, believe, it's not an attack on any belief you hold. The idea I'm getting at is how does an afterlife NOT cheapen the life we have right now? If you're going somewhere after you die, why bother with this one? This is just some insignificant existence compared to what's going to happen. Any supreme being would have to be stupid to judge you on less than a millionth of a percent of your existence.

And contrary to that old argument "oh, but why be moral?" It's a funny thing, I don't need someone hanging a carrot in front of me to do the right thing. I'm not moral only for a reward.

Same thing with devolving, or losing traits favorable to survival.

Did I mention science?

Evolution doesn't mean "things get better as time goes on." You're thinking of natural selection. Evolution just means the genetic makeup changes.

Isn't currently being alive and having a reproductive herd a quantification (or qualification) for something being advantageous?

Sure, it's considered advantageous. That doesn't mean it's "devolution." That's not even a word. If something changes for the worse, it's still changing. That's the last time I'm explaining it. It's not hard.

If a creature living in Montana evolves to have a target painted on it's forehead, that's still evolution.

I think I understand your whole point even better now. Evolution isn't something that can be measured until the species is extinct. Evolutionary traits signifying uniqueness are still evolutionary changes, even if those changes involve the loss of something. Like legs, spines, toxicity, hair, pigmentation.

Therefore, with the right fossil records a snake could evolve into not growing legs.

Or narwhales and their horn.

And unicorns, too.

Except... it's the study of something changing. Where did you get any of that? When a creature changes, say, a bacteria, that becomes resistant to penicillin. That's evolution! Wow!

aka, none? The LHC should be evidence of that.

It seems like only stupid people who are easily caught up in media hype are seriously worried about it.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 9/10/08 05:11 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

It should play as much a role in evolution as it does in physics.

aka, none? The LHC should be evidence of that.

Oh my god.

Are you dead serious.

Oh my god. Just, no.

[homor]

it implies that god is playing spore, and were his ugly creation.

[Saruman200]

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Does the theory of evolution have any value? What problems has it been used to solve, and why should we be required to learn about it?

It's value is the same as any other scientific theory: to help us understand the world around us. Now, as people have noted, evolution helps us realize how disease and other things change based on their enviorment. I'm no expert on this, so I'll let them explain that part. Why do we have to learn it? Because, it's knowledge. If we didn't learn evolution, people would just assume God did it. Which is, of course, wrong. "Ignorance is the source of all evil." If we don't teach out children about evolution, then they'll be left believing things that arn't true, and it could cause them to make life desicions that are adverse to them.

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

Well, the whole disease thing, but does it really need an applicable purpose? Science doesn't need a purpose. Who knows, what if one day there are signs of human evolution? Obviously evolution takes along time, but scientists would be able to realize from documents from the past that humans are changing in some way. Chemistry didn't seen very useful when it first took off, but look what it's done for us now.

I don't really understand your post. Really, we don't need to know about dinosaurs. They're extinct. But it explains the fossils that we're found in the ground, so what's wrong with paleotologists studying dinosaurs. Evolution explains where we came from. I mean I think the point you're trying to make is that while evolution is true, why is it important for society? That I can't really answer. Science isn't always relevant to daily life, but knowledge is always a good thing, no matter how relevant or irrelevant it seems. I perfer to be knowlegable about science, even if that science has absolutely nothing to do with my life. My message would be that intelligence is always perfered to ignorance, whatever the pratical implications. I hope that answered your question, even if I don't really understand it.

[poxpower]

At 9/10/08 05:40 PM, stafffighter wrote:

Well think of it this way. Which is more likely, figuring that in the grand vastness of existance we're the only species that's gotten this far or emotionally not wanting there to be other creatures out there higher than you?

I know what you're saying, but I've never heard a single person deny the existence of UFOs because of that :o
Like, ever. Not even in part. You're the first person I've ever heard mention this.

Who says that?

[stafffighter]

At 9/10/08 08:14 PM, poxpower wrote:

I know what you're saying, but I've never heard a single person deny the existence of UFOs because of that :o
Like, ever. Not even in part. You're the first person I've ever heard mention this.

Who says that?

Well evolution deniers don't exactly have "It challenges my feelings of signifigance" on their protest signs either. Even though that's clearly the hang up.

[Saruman200]

At 9/10/08 08:20 PM, stafffighter wrote:
Well evolution deniers don't exactly have "It challenges my feelings of signifigance" on their protest signs either. Even though that's clearly the hang up.

"My feelings of signifigance". How does evolution reduce my feeling of signifigance? It makes me happy that my species has been able to throw off myths and legends and use science to expose the truth in the world. I get the point your trying to make though. We're a lot more signifigant if God made us specifically then if we're just one evolved species among many. But truth is more important to me than feeling good about myself. Once you face the fact that we are just one species, it's not really that bad.

As for bringing aliens into all this, I don't see why aliens shouldn't exist. UFOs are all bullshit, but intelligent life somewhere else in the universe isn't far-fetched at all. What is far-fetched is that they are little grey men (highly unlikely, anything the evolved on a different planet would be so different than what evolved here on on earth that to try to predict what they look like would be beyond the human mind) who zoom around in little spacemobiles. For all we know, alien life could be primitive, equal to us in the ancient times, or have completely different technological path than we could ever imagine. Hollywood aliens are complete bull, but logically intelligent life elsewhere isn't that impossible. It's been proved that there are earth-like planets elsewhere. Not to mention, life doesn't have to have developed somewhere like earth. As I noted before, aliens would likely be so different than anything on earth, who said they would need water or oxygen? I believe the existence of extraterrestial life is possible, but I'm no alien conspiracy theorist.

[Elfer]

At 9/10/08 03:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Does the theory of evolution have any value? What problems has it been used to solve, and why should we be required to learn about it?

If the theory of evolution had an applicable purpose, what would it be?

Well, huge amounts of applications in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and biochemical manufacturing, for starters.

[Frattochino]

I'll just say that you can devolve. Its called evolving something your ancestors had. Many animals form the past have come up again, and it is very plausible that they evolved from their succesors.

[poxpower]

At 9/10/08 08:20 PM, stafffighter wrote:

Even though that's clearly the hang up.

They're a lot more pissed about the fact that evolution puts humans as "just an animal" rather than "God's ultimate creature".
Never heard a scientist or a skeptic go "man if aliens exist, it means we're not the best in the universe, that sucks".
That's strictly a religious argument as far as I know. It's always been one. Remember? "The sun revolves around the earth! The earth is the center of the universe!". Now we find that humans are not unique, they're not perfect and they're not final. That pisses them off something horrible, not to mention the fact that we came from "lesser" animals in the past.

At 9/10/08 08:44 PM, Frattochino wrote: I'll just say that you can devolve. Its called evolving something your ancestors had.

nnnno

Many animals form the past have come up again

name one