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At 11/16/03 12:41 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

I may not be an expert on your culture, but I do know that in the US you guys place such enormous emphasis on nationalism compared to other countries. In my country for instance, most children don't know more than two lines of the national anthem.

So, what do you think we ought to do? What do you feel the solution is? If our youth does not know more than two lines from the national anthem, like your nation as youve just said, will that be the solution? And are you talking about patriotism?
Just throw me a bone...

At 11/16/03 02:11 PM, 70TA wrote:

At 11/16/03 12:41 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: Little kids in school have to pledge legiance (or how the fuck you spell it) to the flag, the same way young Germans had to say sieg heil to a portrait of Hitler or Iraqi kids had to swear loyalty to a portrait of Saddam.

Oh shut up. It's called tradition. Now this is the kinda shit I'm talking about. Some idiot has to piss and moan about our traditions. They try to get things changed to fit their needs because they don't like it, which doesn't help or prove a damn thing, besides being a goddamned idiot. If you don't like it, leave. Or in your case, don't come here. We don't change our heritgae to form around what you think is "best". That's called ruining our tradition.

your entire point doesnt make sense... you say we shouldnt do this because this ONE person says so... but you are one person saying the opposite thing...

Also, in hollywood movies I always see how the children have to play the founding of the US, in which their heads get stuffed full of crap about how great and free America is, while the biggest part of the US was stolen from the Indians and the Mexicans.

What the hell are you talking about? That's how the world turns. Do you think the Romans gave a shit about who they were invading? Look at what they conquered: all of Europe, northern Africa, some of Britain and Spain at one point or another, the middle east. Do you think there was sympathy for all that? Survival of the fittest.

thats it... we should try to rule the world because america is stronger than every one else? good luck... it wont happen since the world would win...

wiped out an entire race.

Not really.

yeah he did... seriously he did...

When a child has a different opinion and refuses to believe al that crap or does not want to pledge to that stupid flag

"Stupid flag"? I don't appriciate that kinda talk.

people on the forum dont appriciate being called fags, stupid, and having their opinions reduced to flaming...

and how have you not been banned yet?

A kid even got sewed once for wearing a anti-war T-shirt.

Good. That's what I like to hear.

well his shirt was a pic of bush with the words international terrorist above the pic..

personally i dont think he should have worn it to school but he should not have been sued.. obviously he refused to take it off so had to be suspended for a week... also the school he went to was very muslim...

oh and i like to hear people's opinions on issues without the fear of them being reduced to flaming...

Veggiemeal, shouldn't you be more worried about commercial branwashing, aka "advertising"?

Why do you think America is the country with most overweight people in it?

(Also, don't forget anorexia and bulimia)

http://adbusters.org/creativeresistance/spoofads/food/
Feel free to print and stick it somewhere inside your local Mcdonalds.

At 11/16/03 10:22 PM, OpIvy420 wrote: Also, saying that people shouldn't be told what to do (libertarianism) is a political belief, my political belief, and what you just saw was me debating it. And you're calling ME a hypocrite? Let's look at your friend 70TA.

- Says drugs are bad, drinks alcohol
- Says homosexuality is bad because the Bible says so, then admits to having premarital sex, which the Bible also says is equally bad
- Calls himself a pure soul, then breaks one of the Ten Commandments in his profile ("Thou shalt worship no other God", "Angus Young is God")

Actually, he breaks more than one of the ten commandments... I think anyone interested should read my essay on Idolatry and the Bible.

At 11/17/03 02:03 AM, punk_disease wrote: Veggiemeal, shouldn't you be more worried about commercial branwashing, aka "advertising"?

Why do you think America is the country with most overweight people in it?
(Also, don't forget anorexia and bulimia)

I always thought that it is almost a good thing that America is overweight because it shows how no one ever goes hungry, though it also shows how gluttonous some Americans are. When you think of all the starving people in the world, and then you see the weight loss commercials, it really shows the vanity of America.

At 11/17/03 02:03 AM, punk_disease wrote: Veggiemeal, shouldn't you be more worried about commercial branwashing, aka "advertising"?

That kind of brainwashing is for commercial purposes. The kind I was talking about is political, and that seems a lot more dangerous to me.

At 11/16/03 09:32 PM, RedSkunk wrote: veggie meal -- I couldnt find the vegetarian crew. i gotsta join that shit. heh

Okay, you're in. Wow! Two members!

At 11/16/03 06:12 PM, adrshepard wrote: BTW, can you explain why you as a people are called the Dutch, when you live in Holland which is also the Netherlands? Not being an expert in Holland history or culture I don't know these things.

Holland was the most important area in The Netherlands some time ago, it's not the official name for our country. Dutch comes from the word "Diets", wich is a dialect spoken by Germans and Dutch people in the middle ages.

I pretty much agree with you. Schools are designed to turn kids into corporate, nationlaist zombies. Any attempts at individuality are stifled. But that is what schools are for...crushing individuality.
Most American kids can't even point out Iraq, Afghanistan, or any of the other countires we have invad....I mean liberarted. However, they accept everything as it is and that is what is scrweing us over.

[Monotone voice]

No, you are wrong. We are not brainwashed. This is part of your fashionable anti-US agenda. We are happy. We are free. We know where Iraq is. Proove your statments with hard evidence.

~This message was brought to you in part with the Politics Crew~

At 11/16/03 06:47 PM, 70TA wrote: And this one is for veggiemeal, what a pussy belief in eating. You'll love this. Hey, I just got back from up north hunting on the opening weekend. Guess what, I killed a real nice 10 point buck with my .30-06. It was great. Now it's gutted and ready for the butcher. You should try venison, it's really good.

I don't give a flying fuck about what you put in your retarded mouth. Enjoy it, redneck. By eating meat you have a bigger chance of getting prostate cancer, and let's see how well you fuck your girlfriend when you're impotent.

Sorry everyone, but this guy is getting on my nerves.

At 11/17/03 12:32 AM, BWS wrote: So, what do you think we ought to do? What do you feel the solution is? If our youth does not know more than two lines from the national anthem, like your nation as youve just said, will that be the solution? And are you talking about patriotism?
Just throw me a bone...

If you just give the children the oppertunity to choose weither they want to be patriotic or not, you get a smarter nation with less mindless zombies.

At 11/17/03 10:51 AM, Veggiemeal wrote: I don't give a flying fuck about what you put in your retarded mouth. Enjoy it, redneck. By eating meat you have a bigger chance of getting prostate cancer, and let's see how well you fuck your girlfriend when you're impotent.

Aw, poor baby doesn't eat meat. What a weak, pathetic, pussy. You can't get guns without meat, and you can't rely on beans or eggs for protein. So have fun with that, pussy. EAT MEAT!

At 11/17/03 11:01 AM, 70TA wrote: Aw, poor baby doesn't eat meat. What a weak, pathetic, pussy. You can't get guns without meat, and you can't rely on beans or eggs for protein. So have fun with that, pussy. EAT MEAT!

I'm just gonna ingnore you from now on, okay? Have a good ehm.... well let's just call it a life.

If you just give the children the oppertunity to choose weither they want to be patriotic or not, you get a smarter nation with less mindless zombies.

But then they would be more educated, and want reform.. It doesn't pay to educate your populace beyond a certain point.

You can't get guns without meat, and you can't rely on beans or eggs for protein.

How's this for an arguement: "Yes you can."

At 11/17/03 12:35 PM, RedSkunk wrote:

You can't get guns without meat, and you can't rely on beans or eggs for protein.

How's this for an arguement: "Yes you can."

That's too difficult for that toenailbrain.

At 11/17/03 12:35 PM, RedSkunk wrote:

You can't get guns without meat, and you can't rely on beans or eggs for protein.

How's this for an arguement: "Yes you can."

I dont know why im replying to this, but anyways:
Actually, it depends on the diet that you take. Yes, proteins can be found in these foods, but overall, there is not an equivilent substitute for meat; again, this depends on who you trust ie. Atkins Diet and whatnot. Anyways, this is totally off subject, so blah.

At 11/17/03 11:00 AM, Veggiemeal wrote:

At 11/17/03 12:32 AM, BWS wrote: So, what do you think we ought to do? What do you feel the solution is? If our youth does not know more than two lines from the national anthem, like your nation as youve just said, will that be the solution? And are you talking about patriotism?
Just throw me a bone...

If you just give the children the oppertunity to choose weither they want to be patriotic or not, you get a smarter nation with less mindless zombies.

Well, they do. What is an example of this being "forced" on the given individual? Also, I guess this depends on your definition of forced; force of an intangible substance, such as a belief, is quite hard. You may be assuming a bit here, because you are not from our country; you can read about what is reported and written, however you lack the experience of going to school here (unless you moved there lately of course). You see, being Patriotic is okay; it does not equate to brain washing, because everyone ought to be Patriotic.
Being Patriotic does not mean that you are predetermined to agree with the ones who run your country on a day to day basis. Now, you ought to disagree with the Politicians, not the country as a whole. This is why Patriotism is okay; hate your countries problems, not just the country. See what I mean? It is very short-sighted to simply hate the country as a whole. Im going on a tangent, so ill shut up now.

I'm afraid I am going to have to back 70TA up on this one.

At 11/16/03 02:11 PM, 70TA wrote: Oh shut up. It's called tradition. Now this is the kinda shit I'm talking about. Some idiot has to piss and moan about our traditions. They try to get things changed to fit their needs because they don't like it, which doesn't help or prove a damn thing, besides being a goddamned idiot. If you don't like it, leave. Or in your case, don't come here. We don't change our heritgae to form around what you think is "best". That's called ruining our tradition.

He's right, it is just tradition, and not a bad one either. We choose to live within this nation state and to partake in all its priveledges. The state allows us to thrive both socially and economically, and we in return must both pledge allegiance to it AND criticize it at the same time to make sure we don't keep pledging allegiance to dead dogma. When we pledge allegiance, we are not pledging to the actions of our present ruling government, we are pledging to the ideals America was founded on, which are great ideals in themselves.

What the hell are you talking about? That's how the world turns. Do you think the Romans gave a shit about who they were invading? Look at what they conquered: all of Europe, northern Africa, some of Britain and Spain at one point or another, the middle east. Do you think there was sympathy for all that? Survival of the fittest.

He, unfortunately, is right again. There is no great civilization on earth that was not created without the destruction of another one. It's not necessarily good or right, but it is the reality of geopolitics.

When a child has a different opinion and refuses to believe al that crap or does not want to pledge to that stupid flag

"Stupid flag"? I don't appriciate that kinda talk.

A kid even got sewed once for wearing a anti-war T-shirt.

Good. That's what I like to hear.

Well, here is where 70TA degenerates into being a mindless nationalist. 70TA if you are going to rant about defending America and its ideals, you have to defend Veggie's right to disagree and wear whatever kind of anti war t-shirt he wants to. In fact I think wearing an anti war tshirt is more pro america than wearing a prowar t shirt considering how badly the war is hurting our country. I may be nationalistic, but at least I'm not an ignorant asshole about it.

Actually, it depends on the diet that you take. Yes, proteins can be found in these foods, but overall, there is not an equivilent substitute for meat; again, this depends on who you trust ie. Atkins Diet and whatnot. Anyways, this is totally off subject, so blah.

Eh, none of the discussions here stay on topic for long.

Yes, any theory on how to eat right / healthy is apparently subject to debate. Personally, even when I did eat meat - acouple years ago - the Atkins diet sounds totally wack. Really, you have to admit that.

But, regardless of whether or not I'm getting all the different proteins, etc., I haven't eaten any meat, and very few dairy / egg products in years. I'm fine.

At 11/17/03 02:51 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

When we pledge allegiance, we are not pledging to the actions of our present ruling government, we are pledging to the ideals America was founded on, which are great ideals in themselves.
There is no great civilization on earth that was not created without the destruction of another one.

<3 Lyddiechu!
Too bad people only take into account the facts that are convieniant for their argument, and disregard everything else (usually, and generally of course). Lyddiechu wins the prize of the day; you go girl!! :)

The optimal diet for the average person requires approx. 1200 cal. with about 800 needed just to breath, pump blood ect. The average American takes in about 1500, far more than needed, the highest intake is I believe Belgium with 1600, while third world countries can go even below 700. Added in all the food we throw out in first world countries and then tell me why are these people still starving when we have more than enough to go around.

At 11/17/03 03:48 PM, RugbyMacDaddy wrote: Added in all the food we throw out in first world countries and then tell me why are these people still starving when we have more than enough to go around.

Because we produce a shit-load, and they produce near nothing. This is such a lame argument. Should we Fed-Ex our leftovers via Next Day Air? I mean, come on, its their fault because they have governments that dont do shit. Its not too difficult to produce food, so why the fuck cant they produce it? Dont get me wrong, I feel that hunger is terrible, but what is the solution? Its their own governments fault! And God forbid we try and make their government take responsibilty for it.

Because we produce a shit-load, and they produce near nothing.

Now, why is that? Well there are a number of reasons. Your unscholarly approach eaves a lot to be desired. This is my list.
1. You can't really expect the Sahara Desert to grow as much as the fields of the Ukraine. Thus the actual land.
2. Lack of modern machinary puts people at a severe disadvantage.
3. Poorly set-up Governments prone to corruption, usually supported by large Foreign Powers (such as the US, Britain, etc.)
4. Neo-imperialism in the form of forcing countries to open up their markets so that a peasant farmer has to compete with a large agribusiness, for example.
5. Government subsidies which further cut the price of production, thus making prices too low to compete and putting many peasant farmers out of business.
6. Civil wars/wars etc
7. Pollution of land/water supplies
8. Poverty associated problems (disease of family members)
9. Large scale dumping of First World produce
10. Tariff barriers in First World markets
11. Restructuring of economies in the form of cash-cropping (caused by IMF.)

This is just a short list, there are of course numerous more reasons. However fro just this short list we can easily see that First World nations have had a major part to play. While we, as First World citizens are not totally to blame, our inaction in the face of the plight of human suffering should make us feel deeply guilty. We have given our tacit consent to a system which would allow, nay, cause the starvation of tens of thousands of people a day.

The buck stops here.

I'm not going to stray into this flame fest of chauvanistic nationalism. You guys can believe that your nation is the best, good for you. I, however, believe that nationalism is a false distinction which only serves the ruling elite.

He, unfortunately, is right again. There is no great civilization on earth that was not created without the destruction of another one.

How do you figure? Maybe what you mean is that there has been no dominant state which has not become dominant by conquering and oppressing. Seems kinda obvious, doesn't it? I do not share in your measure of greatness.

It's not necessarily good or right, but it is the reality of geopolitics.

We recognise it is bad and bad has been done in the past and WE DON'T DO IT AGAIN. This is why peope must be taught about the brutal history of countries. Learn from the fucking past.

At 11/17/03 04:34 PM, Slizor wrote:

Because we produce a shit-load, and they produce near nothing.

Now, why is that? Well there are a number of reasons. Your unscholarly approach eaves a lot to be desired. This is my list.

Just because I do not type my thoughts, it doesnt imply that I dont know.
This all boils down to an argument that im getting at. You see, for the most part it is their governments fault. They might not be able to produce food on their land, but im sure that they can produce something that it worth trading. Also, they government subsidies help them, not hurt them; maybe the word has a different diffinition over there. What im getting at is that they ought to help themselves before we can help them. But wait, if we go and help them by restructuring their government, we would be seen as the bad guy.

While we, as First World citizens are not totally to blame, our inaction in the face of the plight of human suffering should make us feel deeply guilty. Like I said, why is it that its always our fault until we try and help...then, at that point we are evil?

What do you think the solution is??

See Slizor, you pissed me off and made me spell like im retarded. Thanks.

If everyone would realize that if you just use land where livestock are grown and replace it with vegetables and fruit then the world would be able to feed itself. And the fact that you can make fake meat that has just as much nutrients as regular meat would be dandy. And anyways Vegetarians live on average 6 years longer than meat eaters.

And to 7OTA, about veggiemeal being weak becuase hes a vegan. More athletes are becoming vegans becuase its healthier and better for your body. So say whatever you want to say. Fucking bible thumping gun totters always piss me off.

At 11/17/03 05:24 PM, blueloa13 wrote:

Fucking bible thumping gun totters always piss me off.

Im a Christian, and Im going to buy a handgun soon...do I piss you off??

Also, im a Republican.
Piss you off, eh??