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i fear nothing. ive already done so much to go to hell that im practically sprinting there.

Ceasing to exist was the best decision I ever made.
Since then my income has tripled and my health has been better then ever.

I just wish that I had found out about ceasing to exist when I was younger so I could of gotten a head start.

At 8/28/08 09:15 AM, Thimbles wrote: I don't see why some theists have such a great fear of death.

If I believed that there was a hell... I sure as hell would be afraid of it.

Sure, it's natural for basic survival, but making up some kind of invisible place in the sky or some sort of gradual process of reincarnation is a bit irrational, don't you think?

They're not making it up. It's already been made up, written, analyzed, and popularized. All of these things bring credence to a belief whether it concerns a God or the diameter of the sun.

I find it irritating that you believe Atheists want to stop existing once death occurs. Most Atheists don't want anything of the sort.

You must define what it is to 'want'. Atheists are actively seeking a means of affirmation that discredits a theory of after-life. It is generally essential to atheistic theory that there is no after-life, and so to affirm oneself as an atheist, they must actively seek (or want to some degree of the word) no belief in an afterlife. To be clear, this is not a statement of sequence.

No one would willingly give up such a beautifully described paradise, but that's not the way it works. For a lot of people it's impossible to believe in something without a fair amount of evidence,

People willingly seek the most absolute means of affirmation. To me, evidence is a moot point because it's irreconcilable. Religion is based on the lack of it. Science is based on the abundance of it. It's a fundamental design difference, the argument of which never progresses beyond, "you're wrong according to me".

Instead, my issue is with psychology. How can I genuinely love/accept Jesus if I'm getting some ancillary reward for it? How can human interest possibly avoid tainting a spiritual one?

and rightly so.

Moral imperative?

At 8/28/08 06:47 AM, AapoJoki wrote: You were non-existent for billions of years before your existence began. Did you feel uncomfortable at any point of your non-existence?

This is diffrent, because I eventually existed. It doesn't work that way with death... you're not dead for a really long time and then suddenly undead. No, you're dead forever.... until the end of time and beyond.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraide of death, it's just a creepy thought to have.

At 8/28/08 11:51 AM, lolomfgisuck wrote: No, you're dead forever.... until the end of time and beyond.

Is the beginning of time any closer to now than the end of it? I think forever just sounds scarier.

At 8/28/08 09:15 AM, Thimbles wrote:

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

Funnily enough, those words always bring me back to earth when I start thinking about nonexistence, I also like to think that the jorney of death has been taken by billions of people before me, and I will someday join them. But still you cannot prove everything.People don't have evidence for many things in life, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Even things that have been known to us since 1000s of years ago are still not understood, like the Sun. (something to do with it's coronna). I shall always beleive that there is more to the end of life, even if all religions were proved false, I would hate that, but still beleive.

When i die, i shall respawn at the beginning of the level, becasue that is what happens.

lol id be k with "ceasing to exist" if i died in a real dick way xD
like, like ummm exploding a bus full of little kids :D

I'll be reincarnated

What now?

At 8/28/08 12:49 PM, Onizero wrote: I'll be reincarnated

What now?

watch you come back as a chicken!
then ill eat you THATS WHAT!

At 8/28/08 11:43 AM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote: If I believed that there was a hell... I sure as hell would be afraid of it.

It's a shame this hell was created in conjunction with the better part of an afterlife in the imagination of frightened ancestors. I remember when I was a kid and did everything the bible said to keep away from such a gruesome torment, within reason. I was a disturbed little kid. Now, I wish I had just brushed it off like Santa Claus a lot sooner.

Anyway, what I was talking about was the sheer fright of the thought of death, not any earthly repercussions someone may or may not take with them.

They're not making it up. It's already been made up, written, analyzed, and popularized.

When I was typing that up, I believed it to be obvious that I was referring to everybody who's ever followed those theist beliefs, throughout history. Now that I look at it, it seems unapparent.

You must define what it is to 'want'.

To desire. Can you state that most atheists desire to die and never live through an afterlife? I'm sure there are many that obviously don't, just like I want there to be an invisible pink humanoid in my room whom I can fuck all day. I don't believe it's going to happen, but it would be great. To much information?

Atheists are actively seeking a means of affirmation that discredits a theory of after-life. It is generally essential to atheistic theory that there is no after-life, and so to affirm oneself as an atheist, they must actively seek (or want to some degree of the word) no belief in an afterlife. To be clear, this is not a statement of sequence.

Yeah, ok.

People willingly seek the most absolute means of affirmation. To me, evidence is a moot point because it's irreconcilable. Religion is based on the lack of it. Science is based on the abundance of it. It's a fundamental design difference, the argument of which never progresses beyond, "you're wrong according to me".

Point?

At 8/28/08 01:45 PM, Thimbles wrote: It's a shame this hell was created in conjunction with the better part of an afterlife in the imagination of frightened ancestors.

The concept of Good and Evil goes beyond the concept of an afterlife. It makes sense that such a strong paradigm was applied in this context (afterlife) as well.

Anyway, what I was talking about was the sheer fright of the thought of death, not any earthly repercussions someone may or may not take with them.

On the one hand, for someone who believes in an afterlife, death and what follows are inexorably tied. On the other hand, ambiguity, doubt, or the unknown are uncomfortable prospects for anyone, theist or atheist.

When I was typing that up, I believed it to be obvious that I was referring to everybody who's ever followed those theist beliefs, throughout history. Now that I look at it, it seems unapparent.

Even if you meant that, it doesn't apply today unless you're talking about someone whos starting a new religion.

I don't believe it's going to happen, but it would be great.

Yet your affirmation is dependant on not believing it will happen. So on some level you have a vested intent in not believing it will happen. Maybe rather than a matter of definition, it is a matter of levels.

Point?

That a better argument than, "you're wrong according to me," is, "you're wrong according to you." What many christians do is fall into the trap of trying to produce 'scientific evidence' in debates against 'scientific people'. At which point you've laid a common basis and the former argument becomes the latter.

That aside... the whole "it's a shame" routine is a veiled/soft statement of judgement analagous in many ways to declaring falsity or at the very least a misunderstanding. So I felt the point was somewhat cogent.

At 8/27/08 11:35 AM, emo-penguin wrote: I intend to live forever

So far, so good.

At 8/28/08 02:26 PM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote: That aside... the whole "it's a shame" routine is a veiled/soft statement of judgement analagous in many ways to declaring falsity or at the very least a misunderstanding. So I felt the point was somewhat cogent.

Sorry. Meant misconception. And I'd like to add that religion is irrational on some levels. Your use of the word however seems to imply that this is bad. So I'm lumping that in with the "it's a shame" thing.

its scary to think that way...

i mean like you are sleeping forever...

But no one really ceases to exist. We just change. We all have energy and energy can't be created or destroyed. It can only change form which is what each one of us will do the day we die.

At 8/28/08 02:36 PM, greenfaerie4 wrote: But no one really ceases to exist. We just change. We all have energy and energy can't be created or destroyed. It can only change form which is what each one of us will do the day we die.

I'm pretty sure when we talk about our existence we are inherently discussing sentience, which is a phenomenon produced by energy. The energy may go on to other things, but the intangible consciousness effectively ceases to exist - or atleast ceases to exist as any meaningful form of sentience.

I think... more abstractly. When we say "cease to exist" I think it's implied that we "cease to exist as humans or our current form". In the case of an after-life, supposedly we have an essence that does not change form, and holds within it our consciousness to some degree, allowing us to continue existing.

Your point is a decent one to make nonetheless.

At 8/28/08 02:26 PM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote: The concept of Good and Evil goes beyond the concept of an afterlife. It makes sense that such a strong paradigm was applied in this context (afterlife) as well.

Clearly, but when I say that I was a disturbed little kid, I fucking mean disturbed. Such a tale shouldn't have been shared with children in the first place, but with the way things have turned out in the world compared to ancient history, it's better than nothing, and possibly the greatest outcome that could have come of it.

On the one hand, for someone who believes in an afterlife, death and what follows are inexorably tied. On the other hand, ambiguity, doubt, or the unknown are uncomfortable prospects for anyone, theist or atheist.

I couldn't say it better myself.

When I was typing that up, I believed it to be obvious that I was referring to everybody who's ever followed those theist beliefs, throughout history. Now that I look at it, it seems unapparent.

Even if you meant that, it doesn't apply today unless you're talking about someone whos starting a new religion.

I am an undiagnosed schizophrenic and I believe in invisible unicorns watching over us. You're my seven year old son, and I've taught you my beliefs and practices, and you believe in them also. This happened 4,000 years ago and in present day there are millions of people following my delusions.

I don't believe it's going to happen, but it would be great.

Yet your affirmation is dependant on not believing it will happen. So on some level you have a vested intent in not believing it will happen. Maybe rather than a matter of definition, it is a matter of levels.

Have you ever fantasized?

That a better argument than, "you're wrong according to me," is, "you're wrong according to you." What many christians do is fall into the trap of trying to produce 'scientific evidence' in debates against 'scientific people'. At which point you've laid a common basis and the former argument becomes the latter.

Ok, I understand. I think ;0

I concur. However, if we ceased to exist how would you ask this question?

At 8/28/08 09:47 AM, Alphabit wrote: You can't not exist, I have mathematical proof:

If you're alive now it means that the chance of you being alive is 1/x where x is the time that passed since the dawn of time (or since you last existed). Now, assuming that time is infinite, x amount of time should pass by an infinity of times... Therefore, the odds . will be 'replayed' indefinitely thus, according to the laws of probability you should be reincarnated after an additional x amount of time; 1/x * x = x/x = 1.
So yeah...

First of all, by your very own example and logic, it would be 1/infinity chamces of livimg agin (which is an infinitely small chance, obviously), not 1/1. Secondly, your way of assigning chances to events is false. If you throw a ball from the window 10 times, and 1 of those times it hits a baby on the head, it doesn't mean that you will hit a baby on the head every 10 balls you throw after the event has occured. it only means that the chances of it to happened were classed in a certain array in which there was one baby hit out of 10, which is completely insignificant to the chances of hitting a baby. And lastly, no one has ever proven that time is infinite. Time does not exist without space, and we can't know that space is infinite. In fact, by the model of the big bang, space is a FINITE EXPANDING area, not an infinite one. If space ends after all the galaxies fall back into each other, time will be finite. we know that the only things that keeps galaxies apart is the expansion of the big bang. however, at the end gravity always wins - it will pull everything back together into 1 spot just like the big bang.

I didn't exist before I was born, and it's not like I was saying, "Holy fuck, this is boring."

This isn't to say that I want to die, but honestly, you would be DEAD. You wouldn't feel nor would you think about the fact that you're not doing anything.

At 8/28/08 04:04 PM, hkkwinzalot wrote: I didn't exist before I was born, and it's not like I was saying, "Holy fuck, this is boring."

This isn't to say that I want to die, but honestly, you would be DEAD. You wouldn't feel nor would you think about the fact that you're not doing anything.

And that's one of the most scariest things a person can think of while they're on the brink on death. For hundreds of thousands of years (or just thousands for you fundies) the desire, willingness, and primordial need for survival of the species has been drilled into our minds from the moment we're conceived. Of course, with our self awareness and abilities to reason, that can be eventually overcome.

How do you know that you exist right now though?

At 8/28/08 06:47 AM, AapoJoki wrote:

At 8/27/08 11:37 AM, lolomfgisuck wrote: It's the length of time of non existance that makes me feel strange about the whole thing.

You were non-existent for billions of years before your existence began. Did you feel uncomfortable at any point of your non-existence?

None of us will ever know if we were uncomfortable as we didn't exist, so in our minds, we didn't even know we were non-existent....wait

my brain hurts >.<

At 8/28/08 03:01 PM, Thimbles wrote: Clearly, but when I say that I was a disturbed little kid, I fucking mean disturbed. Such a tale shouldn't have been shared with children in the first place, but with the way things have turned out in the world compared to ancient history, it's better than nothing, and possibly the greatest outcome that could have come of it.

The tale of good and evil/ Bible?

There are alot of other reasons people get disturbed. In some cases religion helps with that. In some cases not. And I don't think it's a matter of degree but how much religion coincides or conflicts with whatever other variables are disturbing the person.

I am an undiagnosed schizophrenic and I believe in invisible unicorns watching over us. You're my seven year old son, and I've taught you my beliefs and practices, and you believe in them also. This happened 4,000 years ago and in present day there are millions of people following my delusions.

But in present day there are also books, shows, communities etc. Social cohesion aids credence. In religion, consensus is backed by 'faith'.

The same mechanism applies to peer-reviewed scientific journals. Ofcourse, with science, consesus is backed by empirical/scientific evidence.

Have you ever fantasized?

Fantasies tend to be recongized as just that, a fantasy. Affirmation is achieved through the definition of reality, or what we deem to be reality. When the sense of reality and fantasy are mixed, it can create prospective dissonance, implicit conflict, and explicit conflict - all of which foster ambiguity and stress.

As an example: In the case of the pink humanoid, you believe that the probability of having one of those is next to none. Therefore, if you were to walk into your room and find one, one day, you would probably be very disturbed - as it would shatter some aspect of your reality, threatening your sense of existence and your ability to affirm yourself. Ofcourse, it could be an hallucination, and you may try to dismiss the pink humanoid as such to maintain a consistent reality.

Ofcourse, you can still fantasize about the pink humanoid with little consequence to your definition of reality and being.

At 8/27/08 11:35 AM, emo-penguin wrote: I intend to live forever

Impossible.

At 8/28/08 05:20 PM, Mz-frost95-fr wrote:

At 8/27/08 11:35 AM, emo-penguin wrote: I intend to live forever

Impossible.

Why do you say that?

At 8/28/08 05:18 PM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote:

I am an undiagnosed schizophrenic and I believe in invisible unicorns watching over us. You're my seven year old son, and I've taught you my beliefs and practices, and you believe in them also. This happened 4,000 years ago and in present day there are millions of people following my delusions.

But in present day there are also books, shows, communities etc. Social cohesion aids credence. In religion, consensus is backed by 'faith'.

Yeah yeah yeah, jabber jabber jabber. It looks like you still got my point, no need to be pedantic.

Fantasies tend to...stuff

As an example: stuff

It seems more and more like you're expanding on what I'm saying. Should I even be arguing?

Ofcourse, you can still fantasize about the pink humanoid with little consequence to your definition of reality and being.

:D *fap fap fap*

i think im gonna live a little bit longer though...

Actually, you won't exist so you don't have to care about not existing. You practically right. Since nothing troubles you, because you don't exist.