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On the subject of hypocrisy...

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Quarl
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On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 23rd, 2008 @ 11:44 PM Reply

"Art" is a word used to name certain kinds of things and its definition changes all the time. Aesthetic expression, on the other hand, seems to be a human universal. Human beings all over the world express values about what is good or bad, appropriate or inappropriate, beautiful or ugly, holy or profane, through a system of aesthetic valuation. Aesthetics shape the qualitative and ethical perceptions of social life. As such, aesthetics permeate the political, religous and economic realms of everyday society.

- David W. Penny

I've had a lot on my mind lately in terms of creativity, self expression and what is generally "good/bad." I've been trying to figure a way to word my feelings and thoughts but nothing even came close to that quote that I just picked out of a text I bought for a class last year. The book was "North American Indian Art" by David W. Penney. It was with in the first few pages and I thought to myself "how the fuck did I miss that the first time through? I read this entire fucking book!"

The reason I'm guessing is because I was too ignorant of this idea to realize what it meant at the time. I've always been trying to convince other people that the things I make are amazing, because to me, they are. However, to the guy standing next to me, every thing I produce is "crap" or "uninventive" or "meh." I've never even considered that the reason why it's so hard to get people to like the things I produce is because they've never been exposed to the things I create. Essentially, I have to create a market for myself if I'm ever going to get any where with what I do. At the moment, I'm trying to find a balance between creativity and commercialization and it's damn near impossible.

I guess this is more or less a warning to anyone who is interested in taking their "music hobby" seriously. It's a tough and confusing bitch to try and break into. I feel like if I really wanted, I could be famous right now by sticking my head out the window and yelling at everyone that walked by to listen to my music. Or i'd be infamous... meh. I'll have to give that more thought, but I guess if I perceive it to be fame, it could be so.

Another thing on my mind lately is that my girlfriend is currently looking into ivy league schools such as Harvard and Princeton. If she gets in, I'm essentially a trophy husband in the long run. She'd be the bread winner. The only way I could compete with that is if I sold my soul and produced everything I've grown to hate...

Dunno. Your thoughts audio forum?


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

p4c
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 12:53 AM Reply

dont give up. i dont mean about music, i mean about real life, period. given you go to college, you can still carve out a way of life. thats been my main focus, not music, and im glad im keeping it that way. but at the end, i think your feelings posted here are really a perspective of your entire life--and what you're going to do with it.

read on, and ill formulate my argument.
--
in terms of selling yourself out and trying to impress all your friends, i have an analog from an article written by a teacher from MIT about top science students in the US. they do science contests. they study like crazy. they learn a ton and know much more than anyone else, and they have a lot of credentials under their belt. often enough, people tend to try to impress the social group they interact with--meaning for your past situation, the people around you, the people on newgrounds--but never take into account whether that social group is even worth impressing. hence, in the "real world," you get a lot of super smart people going into nuanced fields and doing so excellently, but from a strictly financial standpoint [where the breadwinner comes in], they don't make the returns they invest in.

yet, nevertheless, for every qualified physics professor on the block who has to deal with all the crap and hardship the profession comes with, they still do it. why? because they like it, and they think its worth devoting their lives to. and that is the admirable part.

my point is that more often than not, keeping in your favorite field or following your creative wonder really _wont_ get you anywhere. sure, if you're lucky you might be the next awesome producer, or in the world of industry, the next bill gates or warren buffett or something. but probably not. and then again, if you go into something that is truly profitable, you may just end up hating yourself.

and so im having the same problem as you--not necessarily on a musical level, but on just handling my life. ya, im a high school student, but i got a lot to swallow because now is when i basically have to choose what i want my life to be, and i cant answer that for myself. i dont _know_ what i want to do, i dont think you know either, let alone many many other people, adults, teens, and children alike. and i think thats a problem we all have to deal with one way or another.

its good you post this stuff up on NG where those select few actually care. i dont know, i suggest you have a nice talk with the people you know best--whether that be us here, your best friends at school, and hell, your girlfriend. because in my opinion, thats something you'll have to figure out from inside you.

Suspended-3rd-Chord
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 04:53 AM Reply

At 8/23/08 11:44 PM, Quarl wrote: I've had a lot on my mind lately in terms of creativity, self expression and what is generally "good/bad."

Like you've read in my blog. This is my opinion. Quote from Swirly Helix.

The beauty of music is not written but intrepreted

Music and art isn't science. The number 100 is great than 10, but a technicality level doesn't define good or bad music. Your and my opinion does. And since all our minds work differently, we all have our unique preferences. I for one don't listen to music to be amazed, but because it sounds good to me! And that's what makes music so great.

Now like you said in your post Quarl, bring in marketing, writing music for audiences and certain purposes you have to bring in a criteria and the definition is no longer entirely subjective.

I guess this is more or less a warning to anyone who is interested in taking their "music hobby" seriously. It's a tough and confusing bitch to try and break into. I feel like if I really wanted, I could be famous right now by sticking my head out the window and yelling at everyone that walked by to listen to my music. Or i'd be infamous... meh. I'll have to give that more thought, but I guess if I perceive it to be fame, it could be so.

other than the fact that I lack the skills needed for the job, I don't yearn to take that route. Once you try to stick commercialization in the process, unless you're insanely good you will usually be sacrificing some level of personal creativity. I'd much rather take up music at a university to LEARN and BUILD MY KNOWLEDGE, and pass on that knowledge to others, while being creative on the side, just for my personal enjoyment and hopefully for a few others. I think anyone would be lying if they wouldnt accept a path for fame, but purely aiming for that route can be too stressful and hindering (and potentially corrupting).

Just keep it cool bro. Everyone here is young yet so many want to reach fame as soon as possible. Work hard try to improve everyday, have a positive mindset and you'll be fine.

Another thing on my mind lately is that my girlfriend is currently looking into ivy league schools such as Harvard and Princeton. If she gets in, I'm essentially a trophy husband in the long run. She'd be the bread winner. The only way I could compete with that is if I sold my soul and produced everything I've grown to hate...

COMPETE?!?!? relationships arent about competition bro, they are about a mutual affection. I understand where you're coming from but think about what you just said...social status is only a layer of fluff over your true being O_O

Quarl
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 09:13 AM Reply

At 8/24/08 04:53 AM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
At 8/23/08 11:44 PM, Quarl wrote:
Another thing on my mind lately is that my girlfriend is currently looking into ivy league schools such as Harvard and Princeton. If she gets in, I'm essentially a trophy husband in the long run. She'd be the bread winner. The only way I could compete with that is if I sold my soul and produced everything I've grown to hate...
COMPETE?!?!? relationships arent about competition bro, they are about a mutual affection. I understand where you're coming from but think about what you just said...social status is only a layer of fluff over your true being O_O

Well, believe me, we love each other a lot, but I'd be afraid as shit if she ended up losing interest in me because all I do is sit around all day at my computer moving digital sliders/ not making any money while she's out discovering cures for cancer/ AIDs. I look at it with a sense of humor, but it is kind of scary to me to think that I'd lose her because of money. Especially considering how much I hate the idea of money. I half wish she wasn't so smart, but then I probably wouldn't love her as much as I do.

Also, back on the real topic, thanks for the input guys.

Another thing to throw into this thread I guess would be business tactics. A thread popped up recently about a newgrounds user trying to pass himself off as female. Old news as far as I'm concerned, but what's your guys opinion on this matter? Is it illegitimate to use ignorance as a tool to make money?

I remember reading back a while that Avril Lavigne was originally a country singer. She only says she's punk to make more money. Granted, she's still singing country, she only changed the lyrics. She's still doing what she loves. Is that admirable? I mean, in essence, she created a market for herself by taking advantage of the masses ignorance. She might not be the best musician, but lets face it, she's an amazing business woman. That or she hired someone to do that to her, either way she's probably rolling in the dough now. Not that I envy her one bit. With all her illegitimacy comes whiplash from her old fan base and whiplash from the people that see through her.

I guess the same idea can be applied to Pendulum :P

More thoughts newgrounds?


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

Quarl
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 09:32 AM Reply

At 8/24/08 12:53 AM, p4c wrote: dont give up. i dont mean about music, i mean about real life, period. given you go to college, you can still carve out a way of life. thats been my main focus, not music, and im glad im keeping it that way. but at the end, i think your feelings posted here are really a perspective of your entire life--and what you're going to do with it.
i have an analog from an article written by a teacher from MIT about top science students in the US.

That was a really interesting link. I'll have to read it again later to really get it all inside my head, but it was really interesting.

As for giving up on "real life," I all ready did years ago, but I grew out of that and into who I am today. Granted I might end up growing back into that ideal... we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I used to completely distrust everyone. I was a loner in high school. One year at college has changed the way I feel about human nature. I used to think that everyone was selfish and wrong, so I cut off all my ties to the society around me. I was and still am a hypocrite :P


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

Quarl
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 10:31 AM Reply

Oh, I completely forgot. On the subject of "not giving up on real life" I'm currently enrolled in a three year course to get teachers certs. I might be the next annoying high school art teacher, yelling at kids for making paper airplanes/ spit balls out of expensive drawing paper.

I'm rising to the top :P


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

revexe
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 11:31 AM Reply

At 8/24/08 10:31 AM, Quarl wrote: Oh, I completely forgot. On the subject of "not giving up on real life" I'm currently enrolled in a three year course to get teachers certs. I might be the next annoying high school art teacher, yelling at kids for making paper airplanes/ spit balls out of expensive drawing paper.

I'm rising to the top :P

Ok.

Everything started well, but at this point you just look like an attention whore. Use your newspost for that matter.

Sorry if I sound harsh.

F?

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Quarl
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 11:41 AM Reply

At 8/24/08 11:31 AM, revexe wrote:
At 8/24/08 10:31 AM, Quarl wrote: Oh, I completely forgot. On the subject of "not giving up on real life" I'm currently enrolled in a three year course to get teachers certs. I might be the next annoying high school art teacher, yelling at kids for making paper airplanes/ spit balls out of expensive drawing paper.

I'm rising to the top :P
Ok.

Everything started well, but at this point you just look like an attention whore. Use your newspost for that matter.

Sorry if I sound harsh.

Eh, I'm a hypocrite. I want to make this a discussion, but unfortunately there isn't enough of it going on... p4c's post sounded like it was directed at me so I responded as such. What I'm trying to get at is in the aforementioned posts. If you want to turn this into how hypocritical I am then do so. You had the option to mention something else but you didn't take it.

meh.


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

Sanryd
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 01:11 PM Reply

At 8/24/08 11:41 AM, Quarl wrote:
At 8/24/08 11:31 AM, revexe wrote:
At 8/24/08 10:31 AM, Quarl wrote: Oh, I completely forgot. On the subject of "not giving up on real life" I'm currently enrolled in a three year course to get teachers certs. I might be the next annoying high school art teacher, yelling at kids for making paper airplanes/ spit balls out of expensive drawing paper.

I'm rising to the top :P
Ok.

Everything started well, but at this point you just look like an attention whore. Use your newspost for that matter.

Sorry if I sound harsh.
Eh, I'm a hypocrite. I want to make this a discussion, but unfortunately there isn't enough of it going on... p4c's post sounded like it was directed at me so I responded as such. What I'm trying to get at is in the aforementioned posts. If you want to turn this into how hypocritical I am then do so. You had the option to mention something else but you didn't take it.

meh.

Keeping this discussion in the open can be good, since I think there are lessons to be learnt by anyone reading it. We all have hit, or will hit similar situations / decisions.

Quarl, prioritize.

Which is more important?

Your girlfriend, or your music? Really think about that.

If it is your girlfriend, make sure you "grow up" with her - whatever that means. Have open and honest discussion about your musical goals and what is acceptible and what is not.

If it is your music, and who you are - then let her know that she needs to love you for who you are, like previously, have open and honest discussion about it, but this time more weighted on her loving you even if you never make it big. If she leaves you over that, and the music is really who you are... you wouldn't want that person to be with you for the rest of your life.

Other girls can and do come along. If music is who you are, they'll love you for it. However, you always need to bring something to the table, if thats money, or amazing emotional support, or whatever.... you have to give them reasons for wanting to stay with you.

So my advice summed up: Prioritize, and find out from your girlfriend what is expected of the relationship down the road.

SkatingIsGenetic
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Response to On the subject of hypocrisy... Aug. 24th, 2008 @ 03:25 PM Reply

At 8/23/08 11:44 PM, Quarl wrote: The reason I'm guessing is because I was too ignorant of this idea to realize what it meant at the time. I've always been trying to convince other people that the things I make are amazing, because to me, they are. However, to the guy standing next to me, every thing I produce is "crap" or "uninventive" or "meh." I've never even considered that the reason why it's so hard to get people to like the things I produce is because they've never been exposed to the things I create. Essentially, I have to create a market for myself if I'm ever going to get any where with what I do. At the moment, I'm trying to find a balance between creativity and commercialization and it's damn near impossible.

It may not just be that those people aren't or haven't been exposed to your type of music. It could just be that they don't take interest in it. And I mean that's ok, as a musician that's bound to happen. Not everyone is going to say your song is the bee's knees because people have opinions and different point of views. But don't discourage your music solely on those who say that you're music isn't good. Take pride in those who like your music and have pointed out the good points in what you make, as well as those who give you constructive criticism on your music. Usually, the ones who leave you long, informative reviews care, and see potential in what you have made and want you to do better. But I understand about marketing. If you're trying to make it big with music, you want your music to stand out and I mean, after a while, if you really do improve, someone is bound to notice and take a liking to your music. But also, trying to find a balance between commercialism and creativity is damn near impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if it were close to non-existant. Commercialism takes pride in creativity to a degree. If it isn't going to get someone money quick and fast, they usually aren't going to waste time on you.

Another thing on my mind lately is that my girlfriend is currently looking into ivy league schools such as Harvard and Princeton. If she gets in, I'm essentially a trophy husband in the long run. She'd be the bread winner. The only way I could compete with that is if I sold my soul and produced everything I've grown to hate...

I have to agree with Sanryd and Suspended. You shouldn't have to compete with your gf as the breadwinner. I mean honestly, you shouldn't want to. Since you're a guy I could see that as a slight sign of egoism, but honestly, it shouldn't matter who makes the most. As long as you are able to help a great deal financially, who makes more shouldn't really be a problem. And I mean, you said you were looking at becoming an art teacher. Who said you couldn't teach art and produce music on the side?


MuZiCk.::.iS.::.E>