The middle east cant be helped

[HogWashSoup]

The middle east has a large number of tribes, factions, and Islam and Judeism is there.

The conflict between all these has been going on for over a thousand years. The conflict has become even more drastic ever since the royal families and their power has been taken down by us and europe.

Some think that if we wait to leave Iraq that once we leave things will be a lot better. WRONG.
Ok, so we bring Iraq to a stable power and they are strong. What will they do? They will attack their enemies, which they have already begun. No nagotiating, just attacking them.

The tribes within Iraq will begin to fight eachother. The democracy there will fail. We are only delaying an inevitable implosion.

One day the middle east will be unified, but we need to let them have their conflict without us.
We have done near nothing to help them. Just delaying an Implosion that if we wait long enough we will be caught in.

We leave now, Iraq will implode
We leave later, Iraq will implode
We leave too late, Iraq will implode with us in it.

What ever we have done will be in vain.

[MultiCanimefan]

So we're screwed either way no matter what we do. Aren't we used to this by now?

[AznWarlord]

No so true. As you may are may not know, suicide bombers don't target the US Military. They have Militant Extremists that do that. Instead, suicide bombers target regular people, the not so crazies. The people that, thanks to the US, finally escaped Government oppression by an evil tyrant and live in a Democratic nation. The bombers target Democracy. Why? Because Terrorists leaders say that the Quran is telling them to, that it's Allah's will, when in fact, it's the leaders themselves who want Democracy out so they can be in control. As long as Democracy in Iraq gets better and better, it's spread it's influence faster and faster. Sooner or later, the Extremists will realize this (unless Al Qaeda has developed Mind Control, in this case we're doomed like you said) that their leaders are just taking advantage of their Radical minds. If they in fact see the light, that their God hasn't been speaking to them for 1500 years, they may finally fight against the true evil, the guys who want to take over the world. Afterwards, a happy Democracy will spread outside the Iraqi borders. Iranians will call for Democracy and Ahmadinajad will have to step down and run or die. I think you can put the rest together.

But as for the Jew, I can't really say so myself.

[STEM]

I may be ignorant here since I don't really follow the subject, but would it be safe to say, from an American's POV, that the Quran is doing worse for the middle east than America's presence there? I can understand the Bible, since it's full of morals that we follow, don't need to be a fundamentalist to understand that.
But the Quran basically says (in my newborn eyes) within its pages that it is all knowing, knows it's all knowing, and will always be all knowing. So it's hard to rebel against that and start calling yourself a free man. To me this book is like a cult, there's no way out of it until everyone who doesn't have the same beliefs as you is dead.
Anyone able to shed some light on the subject I probably butchered and made unclear? Ha

[zoolrule]

What about the fact that every time Israel wins a war it forces peace on the other side?

Egypt was Israel's greatest enemy, Israel won the war and made peace.
Jordan was Israel's enemy, Israel won the war, Israel made peace.

Israel is now negotiating with Syria which is ally with Iran, a country that openly funds Hezbollah and Hamas, geurilla terror organizations that are launching rockets on Israeli cities. And a country that is calling for wiping Israel of the map, while getting nuclear weapon.

It's not hard to see who are the good guys, it's not hard to see who wants peace.
it "can be helped", once the Arabs will cut off this imaginary fanatic goal of destroying Israel.

[AznWarlord]

I personally believe if in fact that Democracy and Peace (I know, they're not the same thing, but they do work well with each other) do arrive in the Middle East, most of our conflicts, except Israel and Palestine, would indeed be solved. Even a Democratic Palestine couldn't see through the differences since it's not Extremism, there is no Terrorist organization twisting their minds against Judaism. They're still only mad that Britain partitioned Palestine into Israel.

I really think it would be pretty funny to see a Democratic Mid East. Practically every country would be a Democracy, except Saudi Arabia (which is the funny part) since they're one of the few Middle Eastern countries that's not fucked up by Extremists.

[Gunter45]

At 8/12/08 03:04 PM, Jezuz wrote: Islam says the world should be united under Islam, so to an extent you have it right. However, it also has the same values to not kill, and goes one up to say they shouldn't go to war unless first attacked.

It's really funny, since this is the exact same reason we were fighting the Cold War. Marxism stresses the need for global communism in order for their vision to be realized. That's why the USSR and US were fighting a war by proxy, making sure that the other's economic policy didn't dominate the rest of the world. It's almost the exact same thing, except it's on the cultural front and the US citizenry is too war weary to engage it.

And before anyone criticizes harp on me "bashing Islam," think half a second. I'm drawing a parallel between an economic clash of interests and a cultural one. Communism is in direct opposition to our capitalist way of life. A Theocratic system where the rule of law stresses a hindrance on human rights in favor of absolute morality is in direct opposition to our system which stresses separation of Church and State and human rights being above all.

Then, you have the Shi'ite and Sunni thing, which is basically Mormon compared to Protestant in Christianity. There's very little difference in them, but none the less the majority (Sunni) have tensions with the minority (Shi'ite).

What's sad is that this comparison is entirely appropriate to the conflict a thousand years ago. They're incredibly violent towards the other and there's no sign of a cessation of hostility from either side, especially the Sunnis.

Religion is just a tool over there, essentially.

Not to dump on religion in general, but organized religion is a tool everywhere.

[ThePretenders]

At 8/12/08 03:04 PM, Jezuz wrote: Then, you have the Shi'ite and Sunni thing, which is basically Mormon compared to Protestant in Christianity. There's very little difference in them, but none the less the majority (Sunni) have tensions with the minority (Shi'ite).

That's true. They're 99.9% the same. The Sunni-Shia conflict arose from a disagreement over who should lead the Caliphate after the Prophet Muhammad died. The Shi'a believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, his cousin and son-in-law, and his descendants should lead the Caliphate and the Sunnis believe that any righteous person should lead the Caliphate.

Abu Bakr, the Prophet Muhammad's closest friend and ally was chosen over Ali (and two subsequent Caliphates, thus making Ali 4th in order of the Caliphate). The Shias reject the three previous rulers and the Sunnis accept them. They went to war and it was called the First Fitna (Fitna is Arabic for schism or disagreement). Ali was assassinated and peace was made. I don't think the Sunnis and Shias have ever reconciled.

Personally, I think that all this Shia-Sunni squabbling is bullshit, as they're both Muslims.

[KeithHybrid]

We should never have been in Iraq to begin with. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to 9-11, no affiliation with al-Quida (in face, IIRC, Saddam was against al-Quida), and the place is now a helluva lot worse off than before we fucked everything up.

We need to get out of Iraq, and we need to get out yestarday!

[homor]

too bad we're making strong political changes in iraq that will help it greatly because that makes this stupid irrelevant.

[Gunter45]

At 8/13/08 02:25 PM, homor wrote: too bad we're making strong political changes in iraq that will help it greatly because that makes this stupid irrelevant.

It's not our place to instigate these changes which they're clearly not ready for. You don't force revolution on another country.

[homor]

At 8/13/08 04:07 PM, Gunter45 wrote: It's not our place to instigate these changes which they're clearly not ready for. You don't force revolution on another country.

except its nessicary to the people's survival.

thats whats important, not some bullshit code of honor, political policy, un rules or any other shit like that.

whats important is that the civilians survive, and live a life that doesn't suck.

[Gunter45]

At 8/13/08 09:44 PM, homor wrote: except its nessicary to the people's survival.

thats whats important, not some bullshit code of honor, political policy, un rules or any other shit like that.

whats important is that the civilians survive, and live a life that doesn't suck.

Christ, you're daft.

Revolution is an internal process. By instigating the process on a country that's not ready for it, you basically assume that you know more about their culture and their capability for just leadership better than they do. And, guess what, it's simply not the case. The moment we leave, we're going to open up a major power vacuum that's going to result in a lot of casualties and, quite possibly, a leader that's even worse than Saddam was.

It is never necessary to force people to revolt. People everywhere have been able to stand up for themselves. The Indians were able to stand up to British rule, blacks were able to stand up against Jim Crow and segregation, and so on and so forth.

You make it seem like some cut and dry situation where we swoop in as knights in shining armor, they hop on our white steed and we carry them off to Neverland. It doesn't work that way. We've totally destabilized their country and they don't have a clue, much less a gameplan, on how to pick up the pieces so we're stuck holding their hand while they do.

You're a fucking idiot so stop trying to pretend you have any idea what's involved in international politics. Leave your aborted thought process in a dumpster where it belongs.