Okay, 3rd world child labor = ok

[fli]

Yes, yes... Fli on a rant on a Liberal rag about Capitalism versus human welfare.
However, I don't think I've presented myself neither as a Communist nor a Socialist. But I do advocate RESPONSIBLE Capitalism.

Fuck the idea about free-will-through-consumerism.
How could we even think about drinking coffee that people in Brazil are enslaved, literally, in an underground system.

Or--
How about Asian sweat shops? Stupid little girls forced to sew for several hours until they're grown up... and then they have no skill to sustain themselves (often times, with families too) and so they're forced to sell their own daughters to the same system.

And now...
We find out that large amounts of African children are being forced to work in gold mines.

First off.
The whole excuse that child labor affords opportunity to children to work, thus placing them above poverty...

That's just an excuse for people to feel better about themselves when they're buying products from them.

HOWEVER, I think there could be a compensation.
If these children can't be in school, then why shouldn't we pay them as regular adults? They do the equal work of an adult, so why not? In fact, they go beyond that, I think.

And why not open some sort of "retirement" account for them? Or give them some method for them to save money before their families use everything up.

In that way, once their use is done, at least they could have some money to start up something... a business, trade school, or maybe a university.

If we're going to use child labor, then at least we ought to regulate it.

[Coherent]

There aren't many ways to solve child slavery without infringing on the foreign sovereignty of the states that host it. I mean, it's not like we can force the governments of these nations to provide retirement for it's enslaved population... Of course the West could embargo the offending nations, but that would only serve to destroy the economy of the tdeveloping nations and worsen the situations of the enslaved children (not to mention the west have become very dependent on the imports from the third world).

The best way I think would be to force corporations to pay companies in third world countries reasonable amounts of money for their products. If a company buys baseball caps from china at $2 a cap instead of 10c a cap, then that company has more incentive to pay its workers instead of violating the law (and risking getting caught), by enslaving children. Furthermore, when the economy improves the government has more incentive to crack down on instances of child slavery since their economy becomes less dependent on it.

[Bryan]

When i was a kid I guess I had child labor ... so lol @ me

[AapoJoki]

How about we put a trade embargo on every country that doesn't have strict laws and efficient monitoring against child labor?

[Coherent]

At 8/11/08 03:53 PM, AapoJoki wrote: How about we put a trade embargo on every country that doesn't have strict laws and efficient monitoring against child labor?

China is one of those countries. Are we going to embargo China?

[AapoJoki]

At 8/11/08 03:56 PM, Coherent wrote: China is one of those countries. Are we going to embargo China?

Yeah, why not. If they want to be an economic superpower, they should do it without child labor, and their economy is at such a level that they should be growing out of it by now.

To make the impact on global economy less severe, this could be done in a transitional period (for all countries, not just China). Each country has to reduce child labor by X % each year, if they want to stay in the international trade market.

[Coherent]

At 8/11/08 04:07 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Yeah, why not. If they want to be an economic superpower, they should do it without child labor, and their economy is at such a level that they should be growing out of it by now.

To make the impact on global economy less severe, this could be done in a transitional period (for all countries, not just China). Each country has to reduce child labor by X % each year, if they want to stay in the international trade market.

What about countries that have economies that absolutely depend on child labor? What about countries that don't have the resources to stop it even if they could without crippling their economy? What about us (the west)? Do you really think we'll walk around unscathed by embargoing the third world? Our economies are massively service based. We don't really manafacture our own goods anymore. Don't believe me? Shirt through your clothes right now and look at the tags. How many "made in the USA" tags can you find?

Besides, how do you think placing an embargo on the country will help the child slaves? It will destroy their economies, it will destroy our economies, and it wont solve anything.

[Coherent]

Anyways, that's my two cents. I better head out before I get too wrapped up in this.

[MultiCanimefan]

I have an American flag that says "Made in China." 'Nuff said, I believe. Don't forget that, during the Industrial Revolution I believe, America employed children, but even then we did it so that families had the maximum amount of income possible. It seems other countries do it for the strengthening of their own economy and forget about the workers they employ. I'm not sure, but not too long ago the United States was treating its' lower-class workers poorly or the immigrant workers poorly. Anyway, I believe children should not be put to work though they should be taught the value of it and the value of currency at an age that they would be capable of understanding it. Children belong in school and with other children to socialize and become contributors to society through education, not some shady sweatshop being fed a bean or grain of rice a day.

[Al6200]

At 8/11/08 03:21 PM, fli wrote:

Fuck the idea about free-will-through-consumerism.
How could we even think about drinking coffee that people in Brazil are enslaved, literally, in an underground system.

How about Asian sweat shops? Stupid little girls forced to sew for several hours until they're grown up... and then they have no skill to sustain themselves (often times, with families too) and so they're forced to sell their own daughters to the same system.

Yeah, but what is the alternative. For most socialists, the alternative is to take those jobs away entirely. And a bad job is better than no job.

The fact is that poor nations with poor education systems need help from the outside, and usually the only way they can reciprocate in such a relationship is by offering cheap labor. In the long run, as they develop the infrastructure to support their industry, and become a developed first world nation, their wages rise and the standard of living increases.

And now...
We find out that large amounts of African children are being forced to work in gold mines.

That's unfortunate, but what's going to make Africa better isn't more regulation - it's more industry and a stronger economy. For example, if African countries started to cut, process, and market jewels domestically rather than just selling the stones overseas, then there would be lots of skilled jobs and trades opening up. There'd be jobs for designers, jobs in marketing, jobs in factories cutting stones, jobs in shipping, and pretty much jobs in everything you can imagine.

But these nations lack the capital to start with that from scratch, so a good intermediate step is just mining and selling the stones overseas.

First off.
The whole excuse that child labor affords opportunity to children to work, thus placing them above poverty...

That's just an excuse for people to feel better about themselves when they're buying products from them.

Not really. If people in third world countries got paid the same amount as people in first would countries then no one would buy anything from those countries, and those nations would not get the resources they need to improve their economy.

HOWEVER, I think there could be a compensation.
If these children can't be in school, then why shouldn't we pay them as regular adults? They do the equal work of an adult, so why not? In fact, they go beyond that, I think.

A child doesn't do the same amount of work as an adult.

And why not open some sort of "retirement" account for them? Or give them some method for them to save money before their families use everything up.

Social Security would not necessarily be a bad idea in these poor countries.

In that way, once their use is done, at least they could have some money to start up something... a business, trade school, or maybe a university.

That's probably not realistic in a lot of these very poor countries. The goal should be to move factories over there, or whatever industry they can be competitive with, and build an export driven economy. Then the reserves of foreign currency should be used to develop the infrastructure and education to take over more parts of their given industry.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

Child labor employes kids who desperately need money to support their families. When some starving family in Africa is getting 50 cents an hour from their daughters job, it can gravely help their situations. I am now, and always will be, a supporter of child labor shops.

I do believe, however, that U.S businesses operating kid shops in other countries should be subject to federal minimum wage, adjusted to the value of our currency compared to the currency of a host country. That would mean the kids get the same earning power as any American worker, but the companies only have to fork over a buck twenty five an hour.

We all win.

[Al6200]

At 8/11/08 06:27 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote:

I do believe, however, that U.S businesses operating kid shops in other countries should be subject to federal minimum wage, adjusted to the value of our currency compared to the currency of a host country. That would mean the kids get the same earning power as any American worker, but the companies only have to fork over a buck twenty five an hour.

If you have to pay your overseas workers the same amount you'd pay American workers, why would you do any work overseas?

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

At 8/11/08 07:00 PM, Al6200 wrote:

If you have to pay your overseas workers the same amount you'd pay American workers, why would you do any work overseas?

Because if you tried paying an American worker, working at 5.75 an hour, an amount of money that would have 5.75 worth of purchasing power in a poor foreign nation, they would sue you.

"Sure, employee number 583494, we owe you a $700 check, but it's ok if we pay you $31.50 because in Angolia $31.50 has as much purchasing power as $700 in America!

[CIX]

At 8/11/08 06:27 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: I do believe, however, that U.S businesses operating kid shops in other countries should be subject to federal minimum wage, adjusted to the value of our currency compared to the currency of a host country. That would mean the kids get the same earning power as any American worker, but the companies only have to fork over a buck twenty five an hour.

We all win.

That's stupid. Do you even know why those corporations are outsourcing jobs? It's because they can't afford to pay those minimum caps and regulations. Sure this sounds like a great idea until you go to Wal-Mart and see everything has doubled in price.

[BetaOrionis]

Can we have a trade embargo with China simply because everything they make happens to be shit?

Pleeeease?

[Elfer]

At 8/11/08 03:21 PM, fli wrote: How about Asian sweat shops? Stupid little girls forced to sew for several hours until they're grown up... and then they have no skill to sustain themselves (often times, with families too) and so they're forced to sell their own daughters to the same system.

That's what you call "sustainable development."

[Al6200]

At 8/11/08 07:14 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote:

Because if you tried paying an American worker, working at 5.75 an hour, an amount of money that would have 5.75 worth of purchasing power in a poor foreign nation, they would sue you.

"Sure, employee number 583494, we owe you a $700 check, but it's ok if we pay you $31.50 because in Angolia $31.50 has as much purchasing power as $700 in America!

Yeah, I see your point there about differences in currency purchasing power. But I'm not sure that it's fair to say that having $20,000 of purchasing power in the US is really equivalent to having that amount of purchasing power in China.

That said, I would agree with the overseas minimum wage legislation you are proposing.

[mrdurgan]

good post fli. the free market is essentially a good thing. however it seems to be that when we value the capital itself over the lives and wellbeing of the people generating that capital, then we get some pretty nasty social and cultural problems.

[Snayke]

At 8/11/08 03:40 PM, Coherent wrote: There aren't many ways to solve child slavery without infringing on the foreign sovereignty of the states that host it.

Oh really? You can't infringe on a sovereign state? Says who?

[Jackrabbit-slims]

At 8/11/08 11:05 PM, Snayke wrote:

At 8/11/08 03:40 PM, Coherent wrote: There aren't many ways to solve child slavery without infringing on the foreign sovereignty of the states that host it.

Oh really? You can't infringe on a sovereign state? Says who?

Say the American government, thats wh- oh wait nevermind...

fuck.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

At 8/11/08 07:16 PM, CIX wrote:

That's stupid. Do you even know why those corporations are outsourcing jobs? It's because they can't afford to pay those minimum caps and regulations. Sure this sounds like a great idea until you go to Wal-Mart and see everything has doubled in price.

I think Wal*Mart can stand to pay people a dollar an hour without doubling their prices.

[CIX]

At 8/12/08 12:56 AM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: I think Wal*Mart can stand to pay people a dollar an hour without doubling their prices.

That's not the minimum wage law you want. Try again.

[homor]

most of the children in those sweat shops aren't working because they being forced to, its because their families are extremly poor.

[ChickenReaper]

Disney uses child Labor and it's a member of Unicef

[ChickenReaper]

At 8/11/08 03:48 PM, 61 wrote: When i was a kid I guess I had child labor ... so lol @ me

I don't think that you had to go through what these kids that we're talking about had to go through

[AznWarlord]

I have to make one correction on your rant. African children aren't mining gold as they are fishing for diamonds. On to the bigger story, there couldn't be anything utterly dumber than and embargo on China than an embargo on Japan or Saudi Arabia. Our economy would literally combust. Blow up. Implode.

[Gunter45]

This is one of those dark periods in a country's economic development that nobody likes but is just another stepping stone towards the benefits that we enjoy.

It takes a fucking douchebag to assume that, just because we enjoy the rights and privileges of a developed nation, any other country can do it. The rights we enjoy today were the result of EXACTLY what's going on in China now. Not even a hundred years ago, we had child labor, sweatshops, and working conditions that would make a modern American turn their nose up in moral indignation, but it's because of these shitty working conditions that we were able to develop into the nation we are now.

Nobody likes what's going on over there, but China's going through the growing pains any nation has to go through to become developed. What's more, China wouldn't be going through this today if it hadn't have been for that asshole Mao who set their country back at least 50 years with detrimental and ill-advised economic plans.

If you want someone to blame for child-driven sweatshops in China in this day and age, don't blame American consumerism, blame that fuckhead Mao who drove his country into the ground.

[fli]

At 8/12/08 10:28 PM, Gunter45 wrote: If you want someone to blame for child-driven sweatshops in China in this day and age, don't blame American consumerism, blame that fuckhead Mao who drove his country into the ground.

Oh please.
That argument is on the same level with the morbidly obese suing McDonald's... for being delicious.

Yes, certainly the politics of China has been condusive for abusive conditions.
However-- as Supply and Demand shows us-- they're supplying what we're demanding. If we want cheaper, faster, and "better" (I equate "made-in-China" with crap, so hence the Quotation Marks)-- there's only one way to achieve it. And that's by using exceedingly cheap or even slave labor.

And the solution is so simple, really.
Research certain brands, and the ones that use child labor or is suspect of using child labor... don't buy it.

[Al6200]

At 8/12/08 10:28 PM, Gunter45 wrote:

If you want someone to blame for child-driven sweatshops in China in this day and age, don't blame American consumerism, blame that fuckhead Mao who drove his country into the ground.

Actually China barely traded at all with the US under Mao. The export driven economic explosion that we started to see in the 1980s was the direct result of policies created by Deng XiaoPing.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

At 8/12/08 03:42 AM, CIX wrote:

That's not the minimum wage law you want. Try again.

Excuse me? Do not tell me what I do and what I do not think is a good idea.

Saying Wal*Mart has to pay U.S minimum wage to foreign workers where U.S minimum wage would put you in the top 10% of paid workers is moronic. It's quite simple; 6.55 in Lithuania is worth a LOT MORE then 6.55 in America. The point of minimum wage is to provide the MINIMUM amount someone needs to live healthy and safely. Hence the word MINIMUM in the title MINIMUM wage.

So why should the MINIMUM wage in a 3rd world country be way more then the MINIMUM required to survive easily? If the MINIMUM amount of money needed to survive in those countries is, say, 7 dollars a day, then we shouldn't make the minimum wage more then 7 dollars a day, because then that wouldn't be the MINIMUM, would it?

MINIMUM.