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At 7/21/08 04:37 PM, papaKLATZ wrote: I'd like to see you survive off of the grain they feed cattle. Please, I beg you, eat the same food that cows do. I doubt you'd make it more than two weeks.

They eat soy, mostly. And grain can be baked into bread, pasta etc. And as we have less cattle to feed, we can use the fields to grow other plants, and as I said, meat eating doesn't need to be abolished, just decreased drastically.

At 7/21/08 04:35 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/21/08 04:31 PM, uhnoesanoob wrote: Yet you are missing many things in grain, such as fat
And protein, and other useful things
That a bowl of chex mix just can't bring.

Ah!

But all of them (aside from a few unique nutrients in meat, that are not entirely necessary) can be replaced with various plant based substitutes. The greatest substitute is the Soy Bean, which is also the main ingredient of Tofu, and get this; since soy is so nutrious, it is also the main feed of cattle.

By cutting down the meat production, we'd free massive amounts of land for other agriculture, re-forestation, alternative energy solutions (solar and wind parks) etc. Not everyone has to become vegetarian, not full time, at least, and yes, if someone insists, they can have their daily t-bone steak, but the price of meat should be hiked up by a lot.

Yet you are missing one key fact
And it is a lesson you should detract
Most humans are used to eating meat
It's as natural for them as having their feet.

Taking all this into play
One should not see the day
Where veggies are more consumed then meat
For really, veggies taste like sleet.

At 7/21/08 03:54 PM, FalconPunch wrote: 1: Saving the lives of animals doesn't make it a god thing.

That's an opinion, why bother stating it?

Yeah a high IQ means nothing, other than you're ability to learn and subsequently achieve in life. Man I can't believe you just tried to discredit the idea of an IQ, really.

I'm sure you've met somewhere around 10 to maybe even as high as 50 vegetarians, but the reality is that there are over 7 million vegetarians, so you also cannot speak for all vegetarians. Vegetarianism has been linked to lower levels of obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, and cancer.

"Choosing a nonvegetarian lifestyle has a significant health and medical cost. The total direct medical costs in the United States attributable to meat consumption were estimated to be $30-60 billion a year, based upon the higher prevalence of hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, obesity and food-borne illness among omnivores compared with vegetarians (2)."

"In the Adventist Health Study, non-vegetarians had a risk of fatal stroke that was 20-30% higher than the vegetarians. "

Meat: So much healthier, your heart wills top! :D

http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/upd ates/vegetarian_diets_health_benefits.ph p

No but really, I'm not against meat eating, I'm sure it can be part of a healthy diet, I'm just trying to not support animal cruelty (which is not the same goal as animal rights or the belief that we shouldn't kill animals).

You cannot measure a person's intelligence with numbers dipshit. It's not possible. IQ means nothing.

Way to totally leave out all health deprivations for choosing a vegetarian diet, unless you think that the vegetarian lifestyle is perfect?

Mind giving some examples to this "animal cruelty"?

I challenge anybody who seriously thinks that IQ is based off diet to read/respond to my other thread:
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/9412 81

People that eat meat would just eat the vegetarians.

Cannibals of course.

Meat eaters. Vegetarians are eating the plants that suck in the CO2 that cows and other animals fart and go to the ozone layer. Meat eaters eat the cows that fart, stopping them altogether. The more vegitarians eat plants, the more gas goes to the ozone layer, the more the ice caps melt. Do you not see my point? Vegitarians caused global warming! Us meat eaters are eating the problem, the vegitarians are eating the solution!

...Of course, I'm an omnivore, so in general, they would be dominant. I'm still sticking to my "vegitarians caused global warming" theory, though..

--S

At 7/21/08 04:45 PM, uhnoesanoob wrote: Yet you are missing one key fact
And it is a lesson you should detract
Most humans are used to eating meat
It's as natural for them as having their feet.

Taking all this into play
One should not see the day
Where veggies are more consumed then meat
For really, veggies taste like sleet.

Off course it's a huge change
That's why I say take it stage by stage
In case you missed the majority
there's some 4 billion people, outside yor city
who can't afford meat in the first place
They've been dealt the bad cards in the race.

Eh, can't rhyme any longer, also, should go to sleep soon, since I have work tomorrow.

At 7/21/08 04:52 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/21/08 04:45 PM, uhnoesanoob wrote: Yet you are missing one key fact
And it is a lesson you should detract
Most humans are used to eating meat
It's as natural for them as having their feet.

Taking all this into play
One should not see the day
Where veggies are more consumed then meat
For really, veggies taste like sleet.

Off course it's a huge change
That's why I say take it stage by stage
In case you missed the majority
there's some 4 billion people, outside yor city
who can't afford meat in the first place
They've been dealt the bad cards in the race.

Eh, can't rhyme any longer, also, should go to sleep soon, since I have work tomorrow.

And what is it to me?
Altruism is nice and well
But without my meat I would be in hell
Also, 4 billion is hardly a majority
But meat shall prevail in my city
No worries, your poetry is not too shitty.

At 7/21/08 04:45 PM, FalconPunch wrote: You cannot measure a person's intelligence with numbers dipshit. It's not possible. IQ means nothing.

I never said it was a measure of intelligence, I said it's been linked to achieving in life, which it has.

"Despite a lot of hype to the contrary, M. J. Rees and J. A. Earles showed that psychometric intelligence is the single best indicator of good job performance. David Geary found a correlation between IQ and success in many social areas, such as marriage, economic independence, educational level, and abstention from criminal behavior. "

http://renaissanceguy.wordpress.com/2008 /02/22/intelligence-and-iq/

Way to totally leave out all health deprivations for choosing a vegetarian diet, unless you think that the vegetarian lifestyle is perfect?

Health deprivations? Like what? The lack of niacin and B12 or the lack of protein?

Because both of those things have been shown to not be a problem at all for anyone. Unless you are going to bring up instances of deprivation in the diet I cannot refute them, so go ahead.

Mind giving some examples to this "animal cruelty"?

Chickens are raised in cages where they can't even lift their wings all their lives, this makes the chickens go crazy and they start pecking at each other to try and kill the other chickens, so they cut off their beaks without any sort of painkiller, that'd be like someone cutting off your lips. Veal are kept from walking to keep from building muscle so that their meat is tender, then they are cut down in early childhood.

At 7/21/08 04:49 PM, Sysko wrote: Vegitarians caused global warming! Us meat eaters are eating the problem, the vegitarians are eating the solution!

--S

i herd u steal shit from carlos mencia

I eat both things because I am normal...

At 7/19/08 12:22 AM, Xanthom wrote:

At 7/19/08 12:21 AM, Fantum wrote: Omnivores win.

"Meat-eaters" includes omnivores.

They eat vegetables too. Omnivorous people eat both, so therefore they win. They have both sets of pros and very very few of the cons of being a one-track eater.

At 7/21/08 05:00 PM, Rideo wrote:

At 7/21/08 04:45 PM, FalconPunch wrote: You cannot measure a person's intelligence with numbers dipshit. It's not possible. IQ means nothing.

I never said it was a measure of intelligence, I said it's been linked to achieving in life, which it has.

"Despite a lot of hype to the contrary, M. J. Rees and J. A. Earles showed that psychometric intelligence is the single best indicator of good job performance. David Geary found a correlation between IQ and success in many social areas, such as marriage, economic independence, educational level, and abstention from criminal behavior. "

http://renaissanceguy.wordpress.com/2008 /02/22/intelligence-and-iq/

Way to totally leave out all health deprivations for choosing a vegetarian diet, unless you think that the vegetarian lifestyle is perfect?

Health deprivations? Like what? The lack of niacin and B12 or the lack of protein?

Because both of those things have been shown to not be a problem at all for anyone. Unless you are going to bring up instances of deprivation in the diet I cannot refute them, so go ahead.

Mind giving some examples to this "animal cruelty"?

Chickens are raised in cages where they can't even lift their wings all their lives, this makes the chickens go crazy and they start pecking at each other to try and kill the other chickens, so they cut off their beaks without any sort of painkiller, that'd be like someone cutting off your lips. Veal are kept from walking to keep from building muscle so that their meat is tender, then they are cut down in early childhood.

1: Hmm...I guess that has nothing to do with a good childhood, decent morals and a happy attitude? Nah, everything revolves around the magical IQ numbers. No outside influences at all.

2: To honestly say that lack of protein and vitamin B12 has no negative effects is absolutely ludicrous. It seems that you have a personal bias in your argument by not providing any negative consequences from a vegetarian diet.

3: Comparing chickens to humans is just stupid, I'm sorry to say. They don't have nearly the complexity of our brains. They barely have a brain larger than the dinosaurs did. Their pain is almost non existent. Cows raised in captivity don't know anything else so they aren't really missing out on anything. They would probably prefer to stay in the cages if you introduced them to wide open fields because the change of scenery would frighten them so much.

Meet all the way. We have k9 teeth for a reason, and that reason is to eat meat. if we were supposed to eat vegetables and such than we all would have flat square-like teeth. Protein is essential in our diets and for a vegetarian to get all that protein they would have to consume a lot of beans and such. We were designed to eat both meats and vegetables.

At 7/21/08 05:13 PM, FalconPunch wrote: 1: Hmm...I guess that has nothing to do with a good childhood, decent morals and a happy attitude? Nah, everything revolves around the magical IQ numbers. No outside influences at all.

Use your brain, those with a higher IQ might have had a better childhood that lead them to having a higher IQ and a better life, you're logic is basically this:

hmm these people here have a high IQ and these same people here have longer lasting relationships, better paying jobs, and are generally happier. Could these two things be linked? NAAAHHH

2: To honestly say that lack of protein and vitamin B12 has no negative effects is absolutely ludicrous. It seems that you have a personal bias in your argument by not providing any negative consequences from a vegetarian diet.

No I was saying that vegetarians don't suffer from a lack of either of those items. You should trying reading things thoroughly before making a response. I've invited you to go ahead and provide any negative consequences, yet you still have none and choose instead to call me biased in place of an actual argument.

3: Comparing chickens to humans is just stupid, I'm sorry to say. They don't have nearly the complexity of our brains. They barely have a brain larger than the dinosaurs did. Their pain is almost non existent. Cows raised in captivity don't know anything else so they aren't really missing out on anything. They would probably prefer to stay in the cages if you introduced them to wide open fields because the change of scenery would frighten them so much.

They do have brains that have been show to feel anger, sadness, depression, hate, and happiness. Just because they don't know how to turn a television on doesn't mean they don't have feeling. They feel just as much physical pain as we do. And to say that lifestock raised in captivity is humane just because they don't know what freedom is is in itself ludicrous, if a man was raised from birth to death in a cage would it be humane just because he never knew freedom?

If you really think that any living creature would prefer captivity to freedom you are out and out an idiot.

http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509 .htm

If it was an actual fight between meat-eaters and vegitarians, there's no doubt in my mind that meat-eaters would win. I don't think theres any reason to ask why...

At 7/21/08 05:22 PM, Rideo wrote:

At 7/21/08 05:13 PM, FalconPunch wrote: 1: Hmm...I guess that has nothing to do with a good childhood, decent morals and a happy attitude? Nah, everything revolves around the magical IQ numbers. No outside influences at all.

Use your brain, those with a higher IQ might have had a better childhood that lead them to having a higher IQ and a better life, you're logic is basically this:

hmm these people here have a high IQ and these same people here have longer lasting relationships, better paying jobs, and are generally happier. Could these two things be linked? NAAAHHH

2: To honestly say that lack of protein and vitamin B12 has no negative effects is absolutely ludicrous. It seems that you have a personal bias in your argument by not providing any negative consequences from a vegetarian diet.

No I was saying that vegetarians don't suffer from a lack of either of those items. You should trying reading things thoroughly before making a response. I've invited you to go ahead and provide any negative consequences, yet you still have none and choose instead to call me biased in place of an actual argument.

3: Comparing chickens to humans is just stupid, I'm sorry to say. They don't have nearly the complexity of our brains. They barely have a brain larger than the dinosaurs did. Their pain is almost non existent. Cows raised in captivity don't know anything else so they aren't really missing out on anything. They would probably prefer to stay in the cages if you introduced them to wide open fields because the change of scenery would frighten them so much.

They do have brains that have been show to feel anger, sadness, depression, hate, and happiness. Just because they don't know how to turn a television on doesn't mean they don't have feeling. They feel just as much physical pain as we do. And to say that lifestock raised in captivity is humane just because they don't know what freedom is is in itself ludicrous, if a man was raised from birth to death in a cage would it be humane just because he never knew freedom?

If you really think that any living creature would prefer captivity to freedom you are out and out an idiot.

1: Resort to sarcasm means that you are basically done with the argument.

2: You still haven't provided any consequenses which means that you do in fact have a bias in your argument. Since you are to incompetent to list any I will do so.

Vitamin B12 deficiency - Vitamin B12 can only be obtained through meat-based products. Ingesting any form of Vitamin B12 means that you have taken part of killing the animal for reasons to stay alive. It is hypocritical to state otherwise.

Protein deficiency - This one is a bit dodgy. Some people have it and some people don;t. It's as simple as that.

Overeating - Since Vegetarians need to obtain protein through means of beans, eggs or other food sources which aren't as protein-rich as meat it encourages vegetarians to eat more of those foods just to gain the necessary protein which can lead to extensive amounts of other essentials which can harm you over time.

3: Having "feelings" is one thing but if the animal itself can't comprehend them then they mean absolutely nothing. In today's society captivity is almost necessary for animals to even survive at all. Insulting me based on a false idea of yours is idiotic. Your idea states that a domestic cat would rather live in an alley living off of restaurant scraps than live in a loving environment in which the animal receives plenty of food, sleep, play and attention. Your idea of the lack of all those being better is completely insane.

At 7/21/08 05:34 PM, FalconPunch wrote: 1: Resort to sarcasm means that you are basically done with the argument.

Coming from someone who refused to propose an argument.

2: You still haven't provided any consequenses which means that you do in fact have a bias in your argument. Since you are to incompetent to list any I will do so.

This statement proves your idiocy in leaps in bounds, you asked me to argue agaisnt myself, then when I asked you to do your own arguing you tell me I'm biased and incompetent.

Vitamin B12 deficiency - Vitamin B12 can only be obtained through meat-based products. Ingesting any form of Vitamin B12 means that you have taken part of killing the animal for reasons to stay alive. It is hypocritical to state otherwise.

You see you believe that Vitamin b12 is an animal byproduct, but you are mistaken, Vitamin B12 is formed from bacteria, it is found on the skin of all fruits and vegetables. In fact the only reason animals have Vitamin B12 in their meat is because they get it off the food they eat (same idea goes for protein too actually). And most of the Vitamin B12 put into foods (such as cereal) or in vitamin supplements comes from yeast, not meat.

Protein deficiency - This one is a bit dodgy. Some people have it and some people don;t. It's as simple as that.

Most people don't, protein and the amino acids that create protein are available in pretty much every form of food outside of meat. Vegetables, beans, nuts, fruit, grains.

Overeating - Since Vegetarians need to obtain protein through means of beans, eggs or other food sources which aren't as protein-rich as meat it encourages vegetarians to eat more of those foods just to gain the necessary protein which can lead to extensive amounts of other essentials which can harm you over time.

You realize that the levels at which vitamins start producing adverse effects are leaps and bounds above the normal intake level?

Information from http://www.wdxcyber.com/ngen21.htm

Vitamin A recommended daily intake=2,600 IU
When vitamin A begins to produce adverse effects=21,600 IU
Vitamin E = 12 UI
No adverse effects at 1,200 UI and no established Lowest level of intake to produce adverse effects.

Etc..

3: Having "feelings" is one thing but if the animal itself can't comprehend them then they mean absolutely nothing. In today's society captivity is almost necessary for animals to even survive at all. Insulting me based on a false idea of yours is idiotic. Your idea states that a domestic cat would rather live in an alley living off of restaurant scraps than live in a loving environment in which the animal receives plenty of food, sleep, play and attention. Your idea of the lack of all those being better is completely insane.

Okay a cage where you can't move your limbs and have your lips cutoff is not the same as the ideal environment you are suggesting for the cat. The animal can comprehend it's own feelings, to acknowledge that an animal can have feelings but not understand them doesn't even make sense, it's like saying that we can feel happy but we don't know what happy is. Well you know it when you feel it. Your belief that captivity is necessary for an animals survival is highly illogical and an argument less based on fact than your attack on the idea of an IQ.

I would have to go with being neutral on this one and say that a person who is well rounded would definatly beat both a meat eater and vegitable eater. Meaning that a person who is well rounded gets the best of both worlds with out suffering any negatives that both the meat eater party suffers and vegi party suffers.

At 7/19/08 12:21 AM, Fantum wrote: Omnivores win.

I agree.

I had trouble understanding the horrible English in your post but I'll do the best I can.

1: Saving the lives of animals doesn't make it a god thing.
2: IQ means nothing and is only useful for determining how effectively someone can pass an IQ test.
3: High protein means that you have an unbalanced diet which doesn't help your case, believe it or not.
4: I have met and know many sickly and unhealthy vegetarians, so no, it isn;t a misconception. You can't speak for all vegetarians.
5: You need to eat many more seeds than files of fish and flax seed doesn't provide other nutritious vitamins, minerals and oils that fish provide.
6: No, Meat eaters have the same chance to be unhealthy as any vegetarian. When it comes down to it, exercise really determines if someone is unhealthy and it is different for each person. Fat vegetarians exist. They aren't a myth.
7: Didn't understand the first part but vegetarians are also deluded with the term "all natural" and "organic". Just because someing is all natural and organic doesn't mean it's healthy for you.

firstly I apologize for the bad english as some it was typos and i was very tired.

to make a few thing more clear

my protein levels were in the health levels, just the higher range of healthy.
like you said in 4, you cant speak for all veggies, but not all meat eaters are healthy either, and you cant say that all veggies are unhealthy.
its true you need to eat more seeds than files of fish, but seeds are much smaller and are very healthy and often recommended by health professionals.
i agree a lot with number 6, the point i was making is that veggies were not unhealthy like everybody thinks.
yes, i agree with number 7 also, but that same could apply to meat just as well. its all about looking at what has the best nutritional values, and veggies just care about animals while they do it rather than eating anything. They check food to see if it is vegetarian so are more likely to check nutritional information and have a balanced diet.

I'm not a vegetarian because I don't want to eat meat, I just really, really hate vegetables.

y'know all you guys talking about nutrient deficiency

I've been a veggie for longer than most of you have been alive; I've not once thought "I have to eat a lot of eggs every day because of protein and B12," nutrients just happen. It's EXCEPTIONALLY easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, you don't even have to think about it; all arguments are bollocks.

if you only eat meat you get skinnier because fat doesn't make you fat sugar does and cholesterol does which vegetables have a lot of just look at the atkin's diet.Go meat!!!

Energy gained in:
vegetables: 75%
meat: 30%

vegetarians win :P

I'm a vegetarian, but boy do I love me some-ah Michael's meat ;)

Animals have the right... To be tasty. Meal eaters for the win.

Let us quote the great comedian Bill Engvall.

"I was eating a hamburger one day and a vegitarien asks me if i knew what they did to that cow that you are eating. I tell him no but it is delicious."

Thats what he said more or less.